let's settle the HCG debate

[mirin_serratus]

two way's to take it
#1, small dose 250-500iu 2-3x per week for the entire duration of cycle
#2, large dose 1000-1500iu 2-3x per week for a couple of weeks during the very end of cycle or immediately following the end

#1 is most commonly recommended, keeps your balls functioning normally the whole way so there's no fall off during pct, makes sense
#2 formulated by dr. Michael Scally, clinically tested and proven, large doses jumpstart your balls, get them big and potent quickly, also makes sense

both would probably lead to healthy ass balls, the difference would come from which one desensitizes you r balls to the hormone more, and I'm thinking #1, since you're taking the hormone for 10 weeks even though the dose is smaller. Also Scally is a pro and seems to know what he's talking about. read more here: http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/steroid-t...el-scally.html

discuss

[Swifto]

Why is this in the Workout Forum?

[mirin_serratus]

fuk wrong forum

[BBrian]

"Anabolic Steroids - Questions and Answers"

Seems like the correct thread to me.

[BBrian]

And I'm glad you posted this mirin_serratus (by the way, your member name reminds me of something from one of the J.R.R. Tolkien languages). HCG has been proven to be far more effective when administered in several larger doses, close together. Using HCG over an extended period of time bears serious risk to permanently atrophying the gonads, something we'd obviously prefer not to take chances with.

[Swifto]

"Anabolic Steroids - Questions and Answers"

Seems like the correct thread to me.

It was moved from the Workout Forum smarty pants.

[Swifto]

And I'm glad you posted this mirin_serratus (by the way, your member name reminds me of something from one of the J.R.R. Tolkien languages). HCG has been proven to be far more effective when administered in several larger doses, close together. Using HCG over an extended period of time bears serious risk to permanently atrophying the gonads, something we'd obviously prefer not to take chances with.

What are you talking about?

Where is the evidence extended use of HCG will, "cause serious risk to permanently atrophying the gonads?".

Seeing as leydig cell refractory peroid is around 72hours post HCG administration (if your goal is to raise endogenous testoseterone), how exactly is "HCG has been proven to be far more effective when administered in several larger doses, close together."

[gixxerboy1]

And I'm glad you posted this mirin_serratus (by the way, your member name reminds me of something from one of the J.R.R. Tolkien languages). HCG has been proven to be far more effective when administered in several larger doses, close together. Using HCG over an extended period of time bears serious risk to permanently atrophying the gonads, something we'd obviously prefer not to take chances with.

study to this?

[Swifto]

study to this?

He doesn't have one thats applicable to humans.

[BBrian]

It was moved from the Workout Forum smarty pants.

My bad, didn't see it until after it had been moved.

[BBrian]

Seeing as leydig cell refractory peroid is around 72hours post HCG administration (if your goal is to raise endogenous testoseterone), how exactly is "HCG has been proven to be far more effective when administered in several larger doses, close together."

I'm sorry, I guess I put too much faith into the journals published following the results of HCG use. It's even summarized on the HCG profile in this site. Additionally, did you read the link that the originator of this thread posted?

As for my statement in regards to permanent atrophy;
I went back and reread the information leading to this, and I apologize, that was stated as a theory, not a proven fact. However, I have a hard time not seeing the common sense in believing that injecting a gonadotropin for too long can cause permanent atrophy is in fact a sensible theory. Similarly, I know a few bodybuilders who have managed to permanently shut down their body's production of testosterone due to injecting - you guessed it - too much test for too long. But admittedly, I am not a biochemist, and I realize that their is serious subjectivity in my statements. I hope I didn't offend.

[smallnutz]

Dude good post Ur sharing info that's what forums for ppl can take it or leave it. And add to it if they have more info or personal experience. Good post

[Swifto]

I'm sorry, I guess I put too much faith into the journals published following the results of HCG use. It's even summarized on the HCG profile in this site. Additionally, did you read the link that the originator of this thread posted?

As for my statement in regards to permanent atrophy;
I went back and reread the information leading to this, and I apologize, that was stated as a theory, not a proven fact. However, I have a hard time not seeing the common sense in believing that injecting a gonadotropin for too long can cause permanent atrophy is in fact a sensible theory. Similarly, I know a few bodybuilders who have managed to permanently shut down their body's production of testosterone due to injecting - you guessed it - too much test for too long. But admittedly, I am not a biochemist, and I realize that their is serious subjectivity in my statements. I hope I didn't offend.

No worries.

I have read the link, yes. I've seen it before.

I suggest you take breaks of HCG every 12-14 weeks for 1-2 weeks because estrogen and progestrone levels (be it serum or testicular) may build over time.

As for permanent leydig cell desensitisation, thats primay hypogonadism. Which I'm not saying does not exist, but when HCG is used correctly and sparingly, then this phenomenom does not exist at all in human patients.

[JohnnyVegas]

Using HCG over an extended period of time bears serious risk to permanently atrophying the gonads, something we'd obviously prefer not to take chances with.

How does that work? I have been taking 400iu x2 a week for over a year for the sole purpose of NOT having testicular atrophy.

EDIT: never mind, I see you guys discussed that a little bit above. Missed it first time through.

[Brohim]

There are no studies that show HCG will desensitize the cells in the testies even in large doses. I know of a guy who took 10,000iu every WEEK for an entire year and he upped his T level's from 300 to 1400 on HCG alone. After he stopped HCG he went back to baseline (300) and then when he started again his T wen't back up. He is going on 4 years with this. He is not the only one who has taken semi large doses like this. So I would tend to stick w/ real world result's. So we can put desensitation to bed.

As far as delivery; HCG has half-life of 36 hour's so dosing IMO should be every 3-4 day's and you will be fine. 300iu every 3-4 day's during cycle and 1500iu or more during PCT.

HCG will aromotise so if you are taking more than 1200iu per week you should use an AI.

[Sgt. Hartman]

There are no studies that show HCG will desensitize the cells in the testies even in large doses. I know of a guy who took 10,000iu every WEEK for an entire year and he upped his T level's from 300 to 1400 on HCG alone. After he stopped HCG he went back to baseline (300) and then when he started again his T wen't back up. He is going on 4 years with this. He is not the only one who has taken semi large doses like this. So I would tend to stick w/ real world result's. So we can put desensitation to bed.

As far as delivery; HCG has half-life of 36 hour's so dosing IMO should be every 3-4 day's and you will be fine. 300iu every 3-4 day's during cycle and 1500iu or more during PCT.

HCG will aromotise so if you are taking more than 1200iu per week you should use an AI.

^^Bro science at its finest. I'm no expert on HCG but it took less than 30 seconds to find this:


Testicular responsiveness to chronic human chorionic gonadotropin administration in hypogonadotropic hypogonadism.
D'Agata R, Vicari E, Aliffi A, Maugeri G, Mongioì A, Gulizia S.
Abstract
Steroidogenic responsiveness to long term hCG administration (1500 U three times a week for 23 months) was characterized in 8 males with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism (HH). During hCG treatment, testosterone (T), which was in the prepuberal range under basal conditions, rose considerably to the upper end of the normal range and remained at that level during the 23 months of observation. A 2.5-fold increase was observed in serum levels of 17 beta-estradiol (E2) an increment less than seen with T. The increment in 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone was also lower than that in T throughout the study; thus, the 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone to T ratio, despite continuous hCG administration, remained low. Serum androstenedione was slightly increased during hCG therapy. No significant changes were observed in serum levels of dehydroepiandrosterone. These data indicate that continuous long term hCG administration stimulated T levels in HH, with a relatively small change in E2. The kinetics of the T and E2 responses to 2000 U hCG, evaluated after 23 months of therapy, indicated that the testicular response was markedly reduced. No increment in T levels was observed at 24 h; the maximal response occurred at 48 h. This pattern of T response supports the idea that partial testicular desensitization occurs in HH patients receiving chronic treatment with hCG.

I don't understand why it would be more beneficial to run larger doses at the end of cycle in order to get the desired effect of restarting the testes or shocking them when the same can be achieved with moderate/small doses throughout cycle.

[Swifto]

^^Bro science at its finest. I'm no expert on HCG but it took less than 30 seconds to find this:


Testicular responsiveness to chronic human chorionic gonadotropin administration in hypogonadotropic hypogonadism.
D'Agata R, Vicari E, Aliffi A, Maugeri G, Mongioì A, Gulizia S.
Abstract
Steroidogenic responsiveness to long term hCG administration (1500 U three times a week for 23 months) was characterized in 8 males with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism (HH). During hCG treatment, testosterone (T), which was in the prepuberal range under basal conditions, rose considerably to the upper end of the normal range and remained at that level during the 23 months of observation. A 2.5-fold increase was observed in serum levels of 17 beta-estradiol (E2) an increment less than seen with T. The increment in 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone was also lower than that in T throughout the study; thus, the 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone to T ratio, despite continuous hCG administration, remained low. Serum androstenedione was slightly increased during hCG therapy. No significant changes were observed in serum levels of dehydroepiandrosterone. These data indicate that continuous long term hCG administration stimulated T levels in HH, with a relatively small change in E2. The kinetics of the T and E2 responses to 2000 U hCG, evaluated after 23 months of therapy, indicated that the testicular response was markedly reduced. No increment in T levels was observed at 24 h; the maximal response occurred at 48 h. This pattern of T response supports the idea that partial testicular desensitization occurs in HH patients receiving chronic treatment with hCG.

I don't understand why it would be more beneficial to run larger doses at the end of cycle in order to get the desired effect of restarting the testes or shocking them when the same can be achieved with moderate/small doses throughout cycle.

Larger doses cause desensitisation. I have also seen studies at 5000ius in a single shot causing the same desensitisation.

Who the heck uses "2000ius 3x week for 23 months" with no break?

This study is also done on HH subjects, not hypogondal due to androgen administration, this could further change the outcome.

[Sgt. Hartman]

Larger doses cause desensitisation. I have also seen studies at 5000ius in a single shot causing the same desensitisation.

Who the heck uses "2000ius 3x week for 23 months" with no break?

This study is also done on HH subjects, not hypogondal due to androgen administration, this could further change the outcome.

Yeah I know the study isn't necessarily applicable to those trying to recover in PCT but I just posted it in response to the post above mine - "There are no studies that show HCG will desensitize the cells in the testies even in large doses".

[Brohim]

You don't administer HCG 3x a week you will only increase e2 by doing this. You take it every 3-4 day's. If you take more than 1200iu per week you need an AI to control E2.

You also dose more HCG at the end of the cycle once the test is clearning your body. You do this to jumpstart your testicles. There was a study that a small amount (300iu x 2 a week) was sufficent to keep testicles from atrophy. There is no point to administer large doses during cycle because you are supressing LH by injecting test!

The reason for the higher doses right before SERMS (Clomid/Nolva) is because you want your jumpstart your testicles now that the artifical androgen's are clearing the body. Then you use clomid and nolva to re-start the pititary to produce natural LH and you need the testes online to respond. HCG helps tremendously with this. Remember, if you did no PCT it could take a year or longer (dpending on adrogen and dose used) for your balls to "wake up". So this the most important aspect of a good PCT.

[Brohim]

Let's be sensable here. No one for our purposes (PCT) is going to take 5,000iu in one shot. And there aren't going to do this for 22 month's! IMO a proper PCT is to include a high enough dose for the testicles to respond. Data suggest 1500iu every 3rd day or up to 2500iu E3d for short periods of time will not cause denensitation.

[Sgt. Hartman]

All that is beside the point, I don't need a lesson on the the HPTA or the benefits of PCT. The question is if 250iu every 3 - 4 days can maintain testicular function and prevent shut down on cycle, how is it more beneficial to allow the testes to completely shut down on cycle and then have to use very large doses of HCG prior to PCT to shock them into restored function?

[Brohim]

The point is to keep your testicles functioning while on cycle. THEN when the test is clearing to use larger doses to restart the testicles now that the test is clearing your system and you won't get the negative feedback loop. This will re-start you faster than if you didn't do HCG during cycle. IMO it is important to do this step. Use HCG while on cycle and also blast while test is clearning your system to restart the testicles and then add SERMS to start sending LH back to your testicles so they can perform their function.

The genius of HCG Is it is an artifical LH. 300iu x 2 a week is the minimum dose.

[ucf465]

two way's to take it
#1, small dose 250-500iu 2-3x per week for the entire duration of cycle
#2, large dose 1000-1500iu 2-3x per week for a couple of weeks during the very end of cycle or immediately following the end

#1 is most commonly recommended, keeps your balls functioning normally the whole way so there's no fall off during pct, makes sense
#2 formulated by dr. Michael Scally, clinically tested and proven, large doses jumpstart your balls, get them big and potent quickly, also makes sense

both would probably lead to healthy ass balls, the difference would come from which one desensitizes you r balls to the hormone more, and I'm thinking #1, since you're taking the hormone for 10 weeks even though the dose is smaller. Also Scally is a pro and seems to know what he's talking about. read more here: http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/steroid-t...el-scally.html

discuss

No fall off? i did 250 iu's every third day during my entire cycle and now that im in my 4th week of pct, i have still lost about 5 lbs and some strength.

there's definitely a fall off regardless

[Lemonada8]

Brohim you have changed your points several times. Glad to see you finally came around.

The issue with HCG on cycle is better is that it is keeping your testes somewhat functioning, and to keep Intratesticular testosterone volume up. When that ITT volume goes down, that is one of the potential causes of androgen production later on in life. To keep them from 'drying out' the use of HCG is advised on cycle.
To do this for a PCT is kinda pointless, because you arent forcing your body to produce any gonadotropins because 1) FSH has an additional feedback loop which helps keep it from shutting down like LH does so thats not that big of an issue, and 2) HCG is synthetic LH, so by using that as a PCT you are only prolonging the drop in testosterone untill you stop the HCG. However this works in some because they pituitary is faster to recover than the leydig cells following suppression so for some it starts right back up without a major drop in hormone levels. Yet this is going to be better in youth rather than older age, along with the ability to bounce back from stress with younger age.

Using SERMs work on the feedback loops directly at the pituitary gland which induce gonadotropin release/synthesis which then 'restart' the hormone production, and when these SERMs are stopped, the pit is already working and everything is going as it should.

So the importance of using HCG on cycle and not while taking SERMs is that its a temporary crutch of LH which helps keep the testes from damage, however with prolonged usage and high doses, desensitization DOES occur and im rather shocked about the comment that "there have been no studies blah blah", there are a wealth of those studies out there. Just because someone took 10000iu/week and didnt have any issues and to take that is the same for everyone is typical bro-science.

The amount of HCG needed isnt nearly as much as is claimed above. There was a study of 125iu, 250iu, and 500iu HCG used EOD, during androgen induced suppression and those amounts kept ITT just fine, and actually the 500iu EOD group had an increase in ITT.

"Low-dose HCG Maintains ITT in Normal Men with Testosterone induced gonadotropin suppression" (they didnt use acronyms, i dont wanna type it all out :P )
The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism 90(5): 2595-2602

...Twenty-nine men with normal
reproductive physiology were randomized to receive 200
mg T enanthate weekly in combination with either saline placebo
or 125, 250, or 500 IU hCG every other day for 3 wk.....

Baseline serum T (14.1 nmol/liter) was 1.2% of ITT (1174 nmol/
liter). LH and FSH were profoundly suppressed to 5% and 3% of
baseline, respectively, and ITT was suppressed by 94% (1234 to
72 nmol/liter) in the T enanthate/placebo group. ITT increased
linearly with increasing hCG dose (P < 0.001). Posttreatment
ITT was 25% less than baseline in the 125 IU hCG group, 7% less
than baseline in the 250 IU hCG group, and 26% greater than
baseline in the 500 IU hCG group. These results demonstrate
that relatively low dose hCG maintains ITT within the normal
range in healthy men with gonadotropin suppression

As you can see, it doesnt take that much and with increasing dose you increase the risk of densensitization.
Think about the physiology logically... LH is the primary hormone that signifies that men are in the reproductive stage in their life, the increased LH > FSH is a sign. When FSH>LH, that is showing that the man is entering senescence (or andropause /aging/whatever u wanna call it) So men age with LH being high (compared to other stages of life), and by using LH at a high dose for extended periods of time can/will prematurely age the testes and make them less responsive to LH. Then when you get your natural LH going, its not going to be enough to make sufficient hormone for the body.


Another study showing that multiple low doses are better than fewer large doses.
http://j***.endojournals.org/content/58/2/327.short
Differential Effect of Single High Dose and Divided small Dose Administration of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin on Leydig Cell Steroidogenic Desensitization

...Multiple small dose hCG administration in contrast to a single high dose does not desensitize but rather enhances Leydig cell steroidogenesis, probably by preventing the early accumulation of E2 and thereby the steroidogenic enzyme suppression which occurs after massive doses of hCG

SGT Hartman said it perfectly, if you can keep your testes going by doing something very minimal, why not do that rather than letting the testes shut down, atrophy, then hope that the HCG bumps them back up? It makes much more sense to keep them going rather than try to restart from a complete stop.

[Sgt. Hartman]

The point is to keep your testicles functioning while on cycle. THEN when the test is clearing to use larger doses to restart the testicles now that the test is clearing your system and you won't get the negative feedback loop. This will re-start you faster than if you didn't do HCG during cycle. IMO it is important to do this step. Use HCG while on cycle and also blast while test is clearning your system to restart the testicles and then add SERMS to start sending LH back to your testicles so they can perform their function.

The genius of HCG Is it is an artifical LH. 300iu x 2 a week is the minimum dose.

Either I'm still not understanding what you're saying or you're contradicting yourself, I'm pretty sure it's the latter. If you use HCG in small doses throughout the course of the cycle then you don't have to use larger doses prior to PCT to restart the testes b/c they were never shut down in the first place. How can you "restart" something that was never shut down?

[Swifto]

Either I'm still not understanding what you're saying or you're contradicting yourself, I'm pretty sure it's the latter. If you use HCG in small doses throughout the course of the cycle then you don't have to use larger doses prior to PCT to restart the testes b/c they were never shut down in the first place. How can you "restart" something that was never shut down?

I've actually suggested a few times that one should ramp the HCG dose for the final few shots.

Why?

Why not increase endogenous testosterone leading into PCT slightly more than the "on cycle" dose it doing? This may cause slightly more testicular estrogen and progesterone, but that isnt our issue. What happens if the dose used "on cycle" was not sufficient to maintain function? This has been proven to be age dependent.

I've run HCG every way you can think of. On cycle low dose, intermitently throughout every 4-5 weeks, not at all, then at the end of the cycle and using whilst "on" and ramping the dose slightly for the final 2-4 shots. I prefer the latter.

HCG will also increase ones sense of well being. Its used doesn't just seem to be limited to "raising testosterone", this has been stated by Dr. Crisler and I think it would be good to get these effects leading into, or during the start of a rough ride PCT protocol.

I recently introduced Tren and was not on HCG at the time. What happened was my testes atrophies like no other compound I have used before (I was also on Omnadren ). I have never used 19-Nor's before and the effects of its rapid inhibiton of endogenous androgens was evident. Yes, I was shutdown anyway from months of use of Sust/Omna, but Tren took it to another level. My testes have NEVER atrophies before so that means something went on differently than the norm.

I always suggest 19-Nor's are dropped weeks proir to a PCT protocol and this would be an excellent time to ramp the HCG dose, leading to PCT if 19-Nor's have been used.