DNP - biochemical question

[girl_wonders]

I'm trying to get into the theory behind adding in carbs to kick off the DNP . I realize there are not a lot of us involved in this type of cycle, and i realize carb depletion or low carb eating is one theory of this cycle, and others believe in higher carb input while on DNP. Bottom line is, i've heard it said more than once if energy is really low, take some glucose or dextrose.

i'm throwing a few things out hoping to get some insight somehow, especially into the role of glucose in providing energy while on DNP.

i've been doing some research on my own, on the cellular production of ATP and the points in the process where the decoupling effect of DNP would take place.

There are two - one, the main one, inside the cell, where DNP does most of it's dirty work since most ATP production occurs within the mitochondria and therefore most DNP uncoupling effect takes place there.

Another spot though is at the cell membrane which is where glycolysis takes place - where glucose hits the proverbial fan. a small amount of ATP is produced in this process and therefore an opportunity for decoupling takes place here as well (i read that somewhere and it makes sense to me, but it's an assumption on my part also).

since DNP also presumably effects the decoupling and thus ATP production at the glycolycosis level, i'm trying to figure out what happens to the glucose to help give a DNP cycler energy.

If (as i assume) glucose is not creating some marginal amount of ATP due to the interuption by DNP, how does simple sugar give us energy? what other mechanism is at work?

any thoughts? if anyone is interested in analyzing this with me, i can post more specific information about the process by which carbs (and other foods) are broken down chemically and converted into ATP (fuel).

sorry if this question has been asked elsewhere - i have not been able to find any answer to this specific question in my research - at least not that i realized it was the answer!

[Animal Cracker]

Wow...you have put some thought ito this huh?

[einstein1905]

I'm trying to get into the theory behind adding in carbs to kick off the DNP . I realize there are not a lot of us involved in this type of cycle, and i realize carb depletion or low carb eating is one theory of this cycle, and others believe in higher carb input while on DNP. Bottom line is, i've heard it said more than once if energy is really low, take some glucose or dextrose.

i'm throwing a few things out hoping to get some insight somehow, especially into the role of glucose in providing energy while on DNP.

i've been doing some research on my own, on the cellular production of ATP and the points in the process where the decoupling effect of DNP would take place.

There are two - one, the main one, inside the cell, where DNP does most of it's dirty work since most ATP production occurs within the mitochondria and therefore most DNP uncoupling effect takes place there.

Another spot though is at the cell membrane which is where glycolysis takes place - where glucose hits the proverbial fan. a small amount of ATP is produced in this process and therefore an opportunity for decoupling takes place here as well (i read that somewhere and it makes sense to me, but it's an assumption on my part also).

since DNP also presumably effects the decoupling and thus ATP production at the glycolycosis level, i'm trying to figure out what happens to the glucose to help give a DNP cycler energy.

If (as i assume) glucose is not creating some marginal amount of ATP due to the interuption by DNP, how does simple sugar give us energy? what other mechanism is at work?

any thoughts? if anyone is interested in analyzing this with me, i can post more specific information about the process by which carbs (and other foods) are broken down chemically and converted into ATP (fuel).

sorry if this question has been asked elsewhere - i have not been able to find any answer to this specific question in my research - at least not that i realized it was the answer!

DNP uncoupling effect acts only in the oxidative phosphorylation pathway of ATP synthesis...the glycolysis (upstream) isn't affected by DNP. DNP simply makes the ATP synthesis within the mito a les efficient event. Therefore, more energy is used in making ATP, so you have a lower net yield of ATP (energy spent vs energy produced). Adding carbs will still allow glycolysis to happen and will still feed into the ox-phos ATP synthesis pathway....more glucose (starting material)= more energy (ATP). However, if you opt for a super high protein diet while on DNP, you will be converting amino acids to usable substrate to go into the ox-phos pathway...converting amino acids into usable substrate is in itself an energy-using process. Once you convert AAs to usable substrate for mitochondrial ATP synth...all the same rules for glucose ATP synth are the same. However, you'll have less ATP due to the reduced glucose levels (since you aren't taking in carbs). You'll be using more energy and producing less (more fat loss), but you'll feel tired/weak. It's a personal choice. Some people say adding carbs while on DNP will raise heat....so will bumping up the dosage even slightly while on a protein rich/very low carb diet.

[powerlifter]

DNP uncoupling effect acts only in the oxidative phosphorylation pathway of ATP synthesis...the glycolysis (upstream) isn't affected by DNP. DNP simply makes the ATP synthesis within the mito a les efficient event. Therefore, more energy is used in making ATP, so you have a lower net yield of ATP (energy spent vs energy produced). Adding carbs will still allow glycolysis to happen and will still feed into the ox-phos ATP synthesis pathway....more glucose (starting material)= more energy (ATP). However, if you opt for a super high protein diet while on DNP, you will be converting amino acids to usable substrate to go into the ox-phos pathway...converting amino acids into usable substrate is in itself an energy-using process. Once you convert AAs to usable substrate for mitochondrial ATP synth...all the same rules for glucose ATP synth are the same. However, you'll have less ATP due to the reduced glucose levels (since you aren't taking in carbs). You'll be using more energy and producing less (more fat loss), but you'll feel tired/weak. It's a personal choice. Some people say adding carbs while on DNP will raise heat....so will bumping up the dosage even slightly while on a protein rich/very low carb diet.

Nice post both of you

[BrokenBricks]

2 reasons. First any food will give you energy, just less on DNP . Sugars are the quickest to break down however so they deliver the goods the quickest. SO thats one reason they are a good choice if you start to feel bad.

The other reason is that, as you point out, a few ATP are made during glycolysis. These are not in the mitocondria. DNP disrupts the proton gradiet in the mitochondria, not ATP itself of ATP synthase. Glycolysis is not affected by DNP beacuse it lacks the dependance on a H+ gradient. This is only a small amount of total ATP production from carbs, but it is production unaffected by DNP.

[BrokenBricks]

beat me to it......

BTW carbs dont create more heat than any other source of energy. But since we break them down quickly, the heat is released in a burst instead spead out, giving your body less time to disperse it, increasing temp.

[einstein1905]

beat me to it......

BTW carbs dont create more heat than any other source of energy. But since we break them down quickly, the heat is released in a burst instead spead out, giving your body less time to disperse it, increasing temp.

I don't like the adding carb theory that people use. Go with high protein/low carb, and add glucose as needed (to get by only). You're taking DNP to lose fat and for only a short period of time you'll be using DNP....make the most of it.

[BrokenBricks]

I totaly agree.

[girl_wonders]

ok before i can ask the question i'm thinking, i need to understand if the decoupling effected by DNP is the divorce of H+ from NADH at the beginning of the oxidative pathway, or from ADP at the end during formation of ATP. or am i completely off track?

[einstein1905]

ok before i can ask the question i'm thinking, i need to understand if the decoupling effected by DNP is the divorce of H+ from NADH at the beginning of the oxidative pathway, or from ADP at the end during formation of ATP. or am i completely off track?

It's the loss of the proton from NADH, which is shuttled up into the intermembrane space, thereby creating a proton gradient=membrane potential. This energy is used to drive ATP synthase, thus forming ATP. The ADP to ATP is after the uncoupling to which DNP uncoupling is referring.

[BrokenBricks]

ok before i can ask the question i'm thinking, i need to understand if the decoupling effected by DNP is the divorce of H+ from NADH at the beginning of the oxidative pathway, or from ADP at the end during formation of ATP. or am i completely off track?

neither. NADH gives H+ to one side of the membrane in the mitocondria. And When ATP synthase lets H+ to the other side of that membrane it makes ADP into ATP. DNP carries H+ some H+ from the NADH side to the other side. Each time that happens that is that much less ATP which can be produced.
So both reactions still work perfectly.

imagine two people with buckets of water. One pouring water into a half filled bath tub, one taking water out. Every bucket poured in is one bucket that can be poured out. DNP is like making the bath tub leak. Now one bucket poured in is not one bucket able to be poured out. The first guy must pour more in to acount for the water lost to leaking. Both buckets (representing the NADH and ADP reactions) work perfectly, It is the tub (the mitocondria) which is the problem. The 1 to 1 ratio is lost.

[girl_wonders]

ok then my question is - the breakdown of fructose-1,6-biphosphate into pyruvate, does this not set up another H+ gradient? this is not also effected by DNP ?

in other words i see NADH involved in the ATP production preceding pyruvate in the glycolysis chain of events. However i'm not clear whether NADH donates H+ or takes it away. either way there appears to be a gradient though.

i truly appreciate the thoughtful responses btw, thanks for giving this thread your attention.

[einstein1905]

ok then my question is - the breakdown of fructose-1,6-biphosphate into pyruvate, does this not set up another H+ gradient? this is not also effected by DNP ?

in other words i see NADH involved in the ATP production preceding pyruvate in the glycolysis chain of events. However i'm not clear whether NADH donates H+ or takes it away. either way there appears to be a gradient though.

i truly appreciate the thoughtful responses btw, thanks for giving this thread your attention.

I'm sure you've seen images like this before, but this one is very clear...
http://oregonstate.edu/instruction/b...15/fi15p15.htm
You have to also consider WHERE each of the processes occur that you mention. You have things going on extramitochondrially, in the intermembrane space, and in the mito matrix.

[BrokenBricks]

ok then my question is - the breakdown of fructose-1,6-biphosphate into pyruvate, does this not set up another H+ gradient? this is not also effected by DNP ?

in other words i see NADH involved in the ATP production preceding pyruvate in the glycolysis chain of events. However i'm not clear whether NADH donates H+ or takes it away. either way there appears to be a gradient though.

i truly appreciate the thoughtful responses btw, thanks for giving this thread your attention.

Gycolysis and krebs take place in the cytosol of the cell, all of the NADH generated is used in the mitocandria. All of it is used to make the H+ gradient. All NAD+ becomes NADH in cytosol reactions and NADH becomes NAD+ in the mitocondria. The ATP generated in glycolysis is unaffected by DNP because is is not made using an H+ gradient. NADH made by gycolysis is "affected" by DNP because it must be used to creat an H+ gradient before ATP can be made from it.

[girl_wonders]

awesome thank you very much!