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Thread: New protocol give me your input

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    GRexMoore's Avatar
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    New protocol give me your input

    So recently I found a doctor to prescribe me weekly at home shots. I've been searching for a long time for a doctor like this. The protocol he gave me is a little out of the ordinary though compared to what I've seen here. He wants to start me at 100mg of test cyp a week paired with hcg on the last 3 days before my next shot. He said that was to prevent shrinkage and shut down. I don't remember the exact amount of hcg I will be able to update you all later. Along with that, he wants me to take half a pill of clomid daily to preserve fertility. His reasoning behind this was he didn't want to just put me on test and shut down my testicles since it's a pituitary problem. What do you guys think of this? I figured I would have been given the hcg but I haven't heard of using all three. He's very knowledgeable and I didn't want to question him because I finally found a doctor to prescribe me weekly at home shots. He wants to follow up in a month or so and possibly move me to test cyp shots every 5 days. Just curious what you guys think of this.

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    Youthful55guy is online now Productive Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRexMoore View Post
    So recently I found a doctor to prescribe me weekly at home shots. I've been searching for a long time for a doctor like this. The protocol he gave me is a little out of the ordinary though compared to what I've seen here. He wants to start me at 100mg of test cyp a week paired with hcg on the last 3 days before my next shot. He said that was to prevent shrinkage and shut down. I don't remember the exact amount of hcg I will be able to update you all later. Along with that, he wants me to take half a pill of clomid daily to preserve fertility. His reasoning behind this was he didn't want to just put me on test and shut down my testicles since it's a pituitary problem. What do you guys think of this? I figured I would have been given the hcg but I haven't heard of using all three. He's very knowledgeable and I didn't want to question him because I finally found a doctor to prescribe me weekly at home shots. He wants to follow up in a month or so and possibly move me to test cyp shots every 5 days. Just curious what you guys think of this.
    When I started out many years at a Low T clinic (my first 3 months), I was on a similar protocol. The HCG at the end of the weekly cycle is supposed to bolster your T levels when the injected T was beginning to drop down. In theory, it should provide more stable T levels, while at the same time preventing testicular atrophy. Never seemed to work well for me, as I always felt a return of symptoms, even with the 250 IU daily during the last 3 days.

    I've never combined clomid with HCG. Seems a little odd to me and not very standard. Do you know the exact dose of clomid in mg? It usually comes in 50 mg tablets, and half of that on a daily dose seems very high to me. I once did 12.5 mg (1/4 of a 50 mg tablet) daily in place of HCG and it seemed to work well, but I prefer HCG. Some guys (including myself) tend to feel estrogenic effects at doses higher than 12.5 mg per day.

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    kelkel's Avatar
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    Actually, he's not that knowledgeable. What he's proposing is an old school protocol. Not that once per week test dosing doesn't work, it does for many but shorter protocols such as every 5 days for your 100 mg shot or splitting it to 50 mg every 3.5 days will usually work better and provide much more stable levels.

    His logic of using the HCG at the end of the week is to bump up endogenous T production to offset your waning T levels. Remember T has a half-life of about 5 days or so (metabolism dependent) and this is where that logic comes from.

    Taking clomid alongside exogenous testosterone will do nothing for you as it cannot overpower the injected testosterone and initiate it's function in your brain (LH/FSH) and thus downstream production of testosterone, estrogen, etc. I can explain it more in depth if still not sure. HCG on it's own will preserve fertility for you. Studies show this. I've attached one below. Read the section on HCG:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4378070/

    I give him credit for trying though. Better than most! Overall it won't hurt you but it can definitly be improved on.
    Last edited by kelkel; 03-20-2017 at 08:53 PM.
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    Thanks for the replies guys. I just checked and the clomid tabs were 50 mg so yeah he wants me taking 25 mg daily. This is the only thing i'm concerned about. I like the idea of him putting me on hcg , but the clomid just kinda confused me

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    Quote Originally Posted by kelkel View Post
    Actually, he's not that knowledgeable. What he's proposing is an old school protocol. Not that once per week test dosing doesn't work, it does for many but shorter protocols such as every 5 days for your 100 mg shot or splitting it to 50 mg every 3.5 days will usually work better and provide much more stable levels.

    His logic of using the HCG at the end of the week is to bump up endogenous T production to offset your waning T levels. Remember T has a half-life of about 5 days or so (metabolism dependent) and this is where that logic comes from.

    Taking clomid alongside exogenous testosterone will do nothing for you as it cannot overpower the injected testosterone and initiate it's function in your brain (LH/FSH) and thus downstream production of testosterone, estrogen, etc. I can explain it more in depth if still not sure. HCG on it's own will preserve fertility for you. Studies show this. I've attached one below. Read the section on HCG:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4378070/

    I give him credit for trying though. Better than most! Overall it won't hurt you but it can definitly be improved on.
    So you don't think the clomid will really do anything because it can't work while take testosterone? Sorry I'm very new to clomid

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    Correct. Clomid (or Nolva) will not be able to stimulate a pituitary response of LH/FSH while on exogenous testosterone . Blood work would show this to your doctor.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelkel View Post
    Correct. Clomid (or Nolva) will not be able to stimulate a pituitary response of LH/FSH while on exogenous testosterone. Blood work would show this to your doctor.
    So basically it's not really gonna hurt anything by taking it but do you think I should bring that up when I go back for bloodwork and my LH is still low? I don't want to offend him it's taken me long enough to find a willing doctor to do at home shots.

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    Showing zeroed out LH/FSH levels would prove the point to him. Show him the link on HCG as well.
    As previously stated though, he's trying at least.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelkel View Post
    Actually, he's not that knowledgeable. What he's proposing is an old school protocol. Not that once per week test dosing doesn't work, it does for many but shorter protocols such as every 5 days for your 100 mg shot or splitting it to 50 mg every 3.5 days will usually work better and provide much more stable levels.

    His logic of using the HCG at the end of the week is to bump up endogenous T production to offset your waning T levels. Remember T has a half-life of about 5 days or so (metabolism dependent) and this is where that logic comes from.

    Taking clomid alongside exogenous testosterone will do nothing for you as it cannot overpower the injected testosterone and initiate it's function in your brain (LH/FSH) and thus downstream production of testosterone, estrogen, etc. I can explain it more in depth if still not sure. HCG on it's own will preserve fertility for you. Studies show this. I've attached one below. Read the section on HCG:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4378070/

    I give him credit for trying though. Better than most! Overall it won't hurt you but it can definitly be improved on.
    This is a killer article Kel. I'll ask this for my own and the ops interest. The article seems to say in 2 separate places that men should discontinue TRT and use 3000ius of hcg every other day for a period, then a maintenance dose of 1500ius weekly.

    Now here is what's stumping me. Please bear with me because I've told you that I'm not in any way knowledgeable in fertility. I never planned to have children. But coming off to increase spermagenesis makes a whole lot of sense, but in my case, I wouldn't have a desire for sex. This was a major issue for me after I was married. I can have all the healthy sperm in the world, but if I don't have sex, it does me no good. So would switching my test to propionate be beneficial, since I can drop it and try the method described in the article? It sort of makes sense to me, but then again, you know me on this subject.....

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    Having discussed this more in depth via pm, I think you need to wait for the results of the testing your other half will be going through before embarking on anything else. Step one is HCG which needs (per the study) to be ramped up to EOD dosing if trying to become pregnant while on TRT. Option 2 is the HCG in large quantities along with clomid.

    I wish they would have gone into more depth regarding how effective clomid is over time when in the presence of high dose HCG. At what point does / would clomid become less or completely ineffective?

    I see no need to switch to prop at this time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelkel View Post
    Having discussed this more in depth via pm, I think you need to wait for the results of the testing your other half will be going through before embarking on anything else. Step one is HCG which needs (per the study) to be ramped up to EOD dosing if trying to become pregnant while on TRT. Option 2 is the HCG in large quantities along with clomid.

    I wish they would have gone into more depth regarding how effective clomid is over time when in the presence of high dose HCG. At what point does / would clomid become less or completely ineffective?

    I see no need to switch to prop at this time.
    My buddy is going through this right now - but he was on hCG Monotherapy for a couple yrs... his dr dropped his hCG b/c his estrogen levels are like a woman(he cycled very young and very wild for a long time and competed)

    Now he has a varicocele that needs removing but his doc took him off hcg and put him in clomid therapy(50mgs/daily) it's been 3 months and his LH/& FSH are both up...

    Kel why would his dr not try HMG(hes got very low sperm count) as well and why not couple his clomid with hCG at the least!
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelkel View Post
    Showing zeroed out LH/FSH levels would prove the point to him. Show him the link on HCG as well.
    As previously stated though, he's trying at least.
    Thanks Kel, all good info

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    Quote Originally Posted by kelkel View Post
    Having discussed this more in depth via pm, I think you need to wait for the results of the testing your other half will be going through before embarking on anything else. Step one is HCG which needs (per the study) to be ramped up to EOD dosing if trying to become pregnant while on TRT. Option 2 is the HCG in large quantities along with clomid.

    I wish they would have gone into more depth regarding how effective clomid is over time when in the presence of high dose HCG. At what point does / would clomid become less or completely ineffective?

    I see no need to switch to prop at this time.
    Thanks again sir! I'll just await her test results and be patient. I'm usually a very patient person, but trying to start a family is getting really stressful because it's not just me involved in this. She's been on me to come off TRT for months, yet she still remembers how low my sex drive was before.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelkel View Post
    Showing zeroed out LH/FSH levels would prove the point to him. Show him the link on HCG as well.
    As previously stated though, he's trying at least.
    what do you reccomend a better approach to this protocol is? Just drop the clomid and continue with the test and hcg? What do you reccomend I tell him after bloodwork is done? Also, i'm not sure his plan but is hcg and clomid okay to use for extended periods of time? I remember reading somewhere hcg will lose its effectiveness over a long period of time
    Last edited by GRexMoore; 03-23-2017 at 02:21 PM.

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