Harder to gain after a cycle?

**SuperLift** · 11-21-2008, 08:20 PM

I was just wondering if it's harder to gain weight after having done a cycle. I did a cycle about a year back but have been clean since. I can't seem to budge past 215.. I'm 21. 6.2 215 lbs. I have been eating 4000-4500 clean calories everyday with minimal cardio but heavy weight training.

So the question.. Is it harder to gain weight after having done a cycle.

Thanks

**vishus** · 11-21-2008, 08:23 PM

yeah it should be bro haha if you cycled....thats your top level, is being as strong and as big as you can on juice. you'll NEVER reach the same level naturally. sorry to break the news to ya

**hankdiesel** · 11-21-2008, 10:22 PM

natural limit bro.......you may have reached it, with the help of the juice

**nhl1** · 11-21-2008, 10:40 PM

All of the above are dead-on.

**20gauge** · 11-22-2008, 03:13 AM

That doesn't make sense, surely steroids can't override your genetic maximum. Are you guys saying that what he has gained will always stay the same regardless of whether he is natural or not or are you saying that you can make permanent gains but only through gear from now on?

**lovbyts** · 11-22-2008, 03:19 AM

It all depends. IF he really has reached his natural levels NO he will not gain anymore without the help of steroids , human growth hormones or really good supplements.

Even if he has NOT reached his natural limits of course it will be harder to make gains when not on the juice; isn't that the whole reason for taking it to push beyond your limits and faster gains/recovery than normal?

Of course Steroids override you genetic maximum or what would be the use of using them?????

**20gauge** · 11-22-2008, 03:27 AM

Originally Posted by lovbyts

Of course Steroids override you genetic maximum or what would be the use of using them?????

While your on the gear yeh of course but I mean't when you have come off your cycle.

**SuperLift** · 11-22-2008, 03:35 AM

Yeah, I was definitely not at my full natural potential. I wish I would have waited. So if I am at my genetic maximum will I still be able to gain weight if I decided to do another cycle?

**Phate** · 11-22-2008, 03:40 AM

Originally Posted by 20gauge

While your on the gear yeh of course but I mean't when you have come off your cycle.

that statement makes no sense, unless i'm misinterpreting it you are saying that when you are cycling you have the ability to go beyond your genetic potential, but once off then it comes back into play, if that were so then as soon as you came off cycle you would lose everything you've gained

not flaming, just saying

and to set it straight, yes, steroids allow you to go beyond your genetic maximum, but not your physiological maximum, there is a point where even steroids will not work to get you past, but very few people, pros mostly, get to that point, for instance, i doubt there will ever be a human that is 5'6, 700lbs at 4% bf, it is physically impossible, but a person's genetic potential isn't some ungodly high number, i bet mine is around 225lbs or so w/ 6-8%bf, as i'm 5'7, and i'm sure i could reach that in 4-5 years, but with AAS i bet i can get a good 30-40lbs more than that

**Phate** · 11-22-2008, 03:42 AM

Originally Posted by SuperLift

Yeah, I was definitely not at my full natural potential. I wish I would have waited. So if I am at my genetic maximum will I still be able to gain weight if I decided to do another cycle?

you can gain weight without a cycle, it's just not going to be as easy as it would be if you were still normal or starting your first cycle

it's all in the diet, if you run a reasonable cycle and your diet is on point then you will gain, you might not gain 15-20lbs like someone fresh, but you will gain more than you would without AAS

**SuperLift** · 11-22-2008, 03:58 AM

I eat roughly 150g Fats, 400g Carbs, 400g Prot. That usually ends up coming to around 4000-4500 Calories. Eggs/Oats/Brown Rice/Whole Wheat/Chicken/Fish.

Surely I cant be at my genetic maximum... im only 215 lbs! Which is not very big for someone who is 6'2.....

**manwitplans** · 11-22-2008, 04:05 AM

Then you need to eat more man, whats up with the scientific approach?
If you are not gaining weight you have to eat more, simple is that.

4000-4500 calories are alot of food, but hell if your body won't gain weight, its not enough for gaining more weight, simple is that.

You have enough protein, and fat. I would up the carbs to 500 (and watch in 1-2 weeks how its going). If the weight is not up, up another 100.

Don't over analyze, think logical.

**SuperLift** · 11-22-2008, 04:13 AM

Thanks bro, Ill try that. Although I seem to shit it all out as it is haha. More carbs it is. Guess I should try to hit 5000 calories for a couple weeks and see what happens...

Thanks again. Ill keep yall posted.

**manwitplans** · 11-22-2008, 04:24 AM

Originally Posted by SuperLift

Thanks bro, Ill try that. Although I seem to shit it all out as it is haha. More carbs it is. Guess I should try to hit 5000 calories for a couple weeks and see what happens...

Thanks again. Ill keep yall posted.

Haha.
Agree with you there.
Shits alot when you are eating this much :P

If you have trouble with eating more carbs there are always (oatmeal powder). I find that good to bulk when I just cannot force myself to eat.
Throwing in oatmeal powder in a shake or just byitself, marvelous

**20gauge** · 11-22-2008, 04:42 AM

Originally Posted by Phate

that statement makes no sense, unless i'm misinterpreting it you are saying that when you are cycling you have the ability to go beyond your genetic potential, but once off then it comes back into play, if that were so then as soon as you came off cycle you would lose everything you've gained

not flaming, just saying

and to set it straight, yes, steroids allow you to go beyond your genetic maximum, but not your physiological maximum, there is a point where even steroids will not work to get you past, but very few people, pros mostly, get to that point, for instance, i doubt there will ever be a human that is 5'6, 700lbs at 4% bf, it is physically impossible, but a person's genetic potential isn't some ungodly high number, i bet mine is around 225lbs or so w/ 6-8%bf, as i'm 5'7, and i'm sure i could reach that in 4-5 years, but with AAS i bet i can get a good 30-40lbs more than that

Come to think of it I don't even know what I wrote lol

My question was say some dude who's 200IB goes on the gear for the first time, but his NATURAL genetic potential was 220IB right. And say he gained 15IB of mass he can keep while on the gear for arguements sake. Does that mean the gear has altered his genetic potential to 215IB? Or can he still reach his natural potential of 220IB? In other words does gear change your maximum genetically determined mass PERMANENTLY or is it temporary and always reverts back to the natural 220IB limit the dude has had since he was born?

Second question was, if he CAN still reach his genetic potential of 220IB can it ever be through natural training? (similar to what "superlift" wrote)

Hope this makes sense lol.

**Phate** · 11-22-2008, 10:44 AM

Originally Posted by 20gauge

Come to think of it I don't even know what I wrote lol

My question was say some dude who's 200IB goes on the gear for the first time, but his NATURAL genetic potential was 220IB right. And say he gained 15IB of mass he can keep while on the gear for arguements sake. Does that mean the gear has altered his genetic potential to 215IB?no Or can he still reach his natural potential of 220IB? yes, but it would be much easier to reach had he waited and used AS laterIn other words does gear change your maximum genetically determined mass PERMANENTLY or is it temporary and always reverts back to the natural 220IB limit the dude has had since he was born?so to recap, if a dude was 200lbs(call him jim) and started using as opposed to the same guy that waited till his genetic potential was reached(call him cody), jim would be bigger than cody in the beginning because he would gain faster, but because cody waited he will be able to gain around 20lbs more than jim in the long run, so it's a question of how much you want to be able to gain

here, final example, i'm 19, 205 or so, 5'7 and probably 12-14% bf by estimate, if i started using now i would probably be able to gain up to 250 or so with AS, but my genetic potential is probably around 225-235lbs i'm guess, which means that if i waited till then i might be able to get up to 275-295 with AS

Second question was, if he CAN still reach his genetic potential of 220IB can it ever be through natural training? (similar to what "superlift" wrote)
yes, genetic potential is a measure of what your genetics will allow your body to achieve naturally, that's where AS come in, the pros genetic potential is probably 80+lbs less than they weigh, but with AS they can manipulate their body into growing
Hope this makes sense lol.

hope that helps

**alzhimers** · 11-24-2008, 08:21 AM

it does make sense. puts all the babbling into one meaningfull paragraph. lol

**Bossman** · 11-24-2008, 09:32 AM

Originally Posted by SuperLift

I eat roughly 150g Fats, 400g Carbs, 400g Prot. That usually ends up coming to around 4000-4500 Calories. Eggs/Oats/Brown Rice/Whole Wheat/Chicken/Fish.

Surely I cant be at my genetic maximum... im only 215 lbs! Which is not very big for someone who is 6'2.....

What are you doing for post workout nutrition? PWO is one of the best times to add calories, in addition to your diet. I take in between 70-100 (depending on what I worked) grams of simple carbs and 70 grams of whey protein immediately following my workout. This is in addition to my diet.

If you kept your diet the same and just added a good PWO drink, you should see some results. Feed your muscles when they need it the most.

**Bossman** · 11-24-2008, 09:43 AM

Phate- good explanation.

I mean no disrespect, but I think if your genetic potential is 235lbs at 5'7" then you are a genetic "freak"! That's Dexter Jackson. I reached 224lbs at 5'9" with a bench of 385 (no powerlifter, but I don't lift like one either). And it was a sloppy 16-18% 224. I believe my genetic potential was met. But I would have been closer to 215 or so at 12-14% as you say you are.

**powerball52** · 11-24-2008, 11:53 AM

I have the experience of a two year steroid lay-off where I trained naturally. Certain things happened. I never had the sharpness that I had on cycle, but with very sensible training I was able to gain mass again. It took some time and basically a bodybuilder/powerlifting routine with a lot less volume. The days of 5 exercises per body part were over. I had to focus on recovery and basic lifts. If you were juicing and your routine was shit there's a good chance that you may have some gains left in you, but you have to get your diet and routine tight and bust be consistent as hell in the gym. When I finally hit the sauce again I was in the absolute best condition ever. I exploded.

**swifttorres** · 11-24-2008, 08:16 PM

good read...

**SuperLift** · 11-24-2008, 09:24 PM

Originally Posted by cgb6810

What are you doing for post workout nutrition? PWO is one of the best times to add calories, in addition to your diet. I take in between 70-100 (depending on what I worked) grams of simple carbs and 70 grams of whey protein immediately following my workout. This is in addition to my diet.

If you kept your diet the same and just added a good PWO drink, you should see some results. Feed your muscles when they need it the most.

Within 10 mins of my workout I have my PWO shake.
80g Dextrose
60g Whey

About 45 mins after that for PPWO I eat a complete meal.
7oz chicken or fish
2 cups of brown rice (cooked)

That should be sufficient right?

**nickbcd** · 11-25-2008, 04:01 AM

Find it hard to believe your eating 4000-4500 calories a day and not gaining any weight whether it be fat or some muscle. id say stick with lifting heavy or try another cycle.

**Bossman** · 11-25-2008, 06:52 AM

Originally Posted by SuperLift

Within 10 mins of my workout I have my PWO shake.
80g Dextrose
60g Whey

About 45 mins after that for PPWO I eat a complete meal.
7oz chicken or fish
2 cups of brown rice (cooked)

That should be sufficient right?

Good plan!

**20gauge** · 11-30-2008, 12:37 AM

Originally Posted by SuperLift

I was just wondering if it's harder to gain weight after having done a cycle. I did a cycle about a year back but have been clean since. I can't seem to budge past 215.. I'm 21. 6.2 215 lbs. I have been eating 4000-4500 clean calories everyday with minimal cardio but heavy weight training.

So the question.. Is it harder to gain weight after having done a cycle.

Thanks

If your already at your maximum then no whatever you gain you will lose slowly until your back to your genetic max. If you haven't reached your genetic potential you'll still gain size naturally the same way you gained size before your cycle. In other words your cycle won't effect how easy it is for you to gain weight naturally. That's a myth and a great big pile of shit.

**nhl1** · 11-30-2008, 12:51 AM

What 20 guage said in his last post was accurate.

Taking steroids will not change your genetic potential - unless of course you somehow destroy your hpta.

Your body has a certain amount of muscle cells in it, and that amount is determined, and unable to be changed with aas, by the time your body leaves its pubescent state and your bones stop growing.

Your body uses testosterone to feed these muscles and keep them functioning.

No matter how much you eat, no matter how much you train, no matter how much protein you take in, you CANNOT change the amount of muscle cells your body has or how much testosterone it produces to feed those muscles.

Period. Sentence. END OF STORY!

Do not listen to anyone that says just keep eating 7,000 calories a day with 350 grams of protein. If you've reached your genetic maximum, your cells do not have the neccessary amount of testosterone to feed them so they can expand. All you will be doing is getting fat.

**20gauge** · 11-30-2008, 07:51 AM

I don't know where people get this garbage from. All a steroid does is do what your body already does, but better. It doesn't change what you are, it doesn't change your muscle into something else all it does is dramatically improve the efficiency of what your body already does. Perhaps peoples perception changes. When they are off the gear they "think" that it's harder to get bigger....and they're right, but only because their used to the size increase of the steroid. At the moment the only thing that can change your genetic structure in anyway is gene replacement therapy and thats only temporary and still experimental stuff!

**Bossman** · 11-30-2008, 08:03 AM

Originally Posted by 20gauge

I don't know where people get this garbage from. All a steroid does is do what your body already does, but better. It doesn't change what you are, it doesn't change your muscle into something else all it does is dramatically improve the efficiency of what your body already does. Perhaps peoples perception changes. When they are off the gear they "think" that it's harder to get bigger....and they're right, but only because their used to the size increase of the steroid. At the moment the only thing that can change your genetic structure in anyway is gene replacement therapy and thats only temporary and still experimental stuff!

What if a person started AAS when they've reached or were very close to their genetic goals. I can tell you that when Im off, I do not gain. I bust my ass the same, feel more pain in my joints, get more tired then when on, but do not gain. And once again, if they've taken themselve at all above their genetic capabilities, they will never gain beyond that unless on again. In fact, when off, they will eventually shrink to their pre AAS status.

**hankdiesel** · 11-30-2008, 08:10 AM

sucks, but true

**troublesome** · 11-30-2008, 09:03 AM

this post really shows how some people have this geneal idea of steroids that will never change no matter how much they research and cycle......
to answer your question, NO. your results now are not gona be less because you've used steroids in the past.
its all in your head, you start thinking you can't compare being natural with being on ASS. the main thing is if your stuck at 215 you need to take your training to a more serious level and eat more. thats where you should look for the solution, your last cycle has nothing to do with why your not gaining now.

**20gauge** · 11-30-2008, 06:28 PM

Originally Posted by cgb6810

What if a person started AAS when they've reached or were very close to their genetic goals. I can tell you that when Im off, I do not gain. I bust my ass the same, feel more pain in my joints, get more tired then when on, but do not gain. And once again, if they've taken themselve at all above their genetic capabilities, they will never gain beyond that unless on again. In fact, when off, they will eventually shrink to their pre AAS status.

Dude thats what I just said. If hit your genetic potential, nothing short of being able to somehow permanently alter your genes will change your maximum. When you go off the stuff you still have a natural limit. If you lose weight through not training then train again you will gain it back at the same rate you would have naturally if you never touched the stuff.

**20gauge** · 11-30-2008, 06:31 PM

Originally Posted by cgb6810

What if a person started AAS when they've reached or were very close to their genetic goals. I can tell you that when Im off, I do not gain. I bust my ass the same, feel more pain in my joints, get more tired then when on, but do not gain. And once again, if they've taken themselve at all above their genetic capabilities, they will never gain beyond that unless on again. In fact, when off, they will eventually shrink to their pre AAS status.

If they are close to their genetic potential which say is 215lb and they hit 221lb through gear they will slowly go back to 215lb...no matter how much training they do they can take their 800g of protein a day like all these morons tell you to do but you won't change anything. You'll probably just get kidney failure.

**MercyDog** · 11-30-2008, 06:39 PM

gene replacement therapy? Where do I sign up?

**20gauge** · 12-01-2008, 05:56 AM

Originally Posted by MercyDog

gene replacement therapy? Where do I sign up?

http://www.wired.com/medtech/health/...urrentPage=all

**bladerunner9** · 12-01-2008, 08:44 AM

Superlift you said you did a cycle once . Did you had the Test checked in your body and had a good PCT ? Perhaps your body might not have recovered your natural test levels and producing less test than required.

**SuperLift** · 12-01-2008, 07:17 PM

No, i have not gotten my test levels checked. Can my doctor do this?

**MercyDog** · 12-01-2008, 07:57 PM

Originally Posted by SuperLift

No, i have not gotten my test levels checked. Can my doctor do this?

yes, well actually he can send your blood sample to the lab he uses

**SuperLift** · 12-01-2008, 09:43 PM

Any idea what this costs? Think it would be covered by insurance?

**jasperhup** · 12-01-2008, 10:05 PM

without commenting about the genetic limit, i am of the opinion that taking steroids will help you gain more than you ever could (and keep, off cycle) without the steroids.

the extra stimulation, muscle built, and training time when on over what you could otherwise do will help. now how much that is is a good question, but i don't think many of us ever reach our limit, we just aren't able to keep above the burn rate in life. perhaps we can roid a certain amount and then after while natural be bigger and strong than we otherwise could have without ever having done roids. i've met a few ex pro athletes, and they stayed big and buff if they kept training, even tho there weren't on anymore.

oh, plenty of guys talk about getting to their limit without lifting any heavy ass weights. thats a cop out. of you have never benched, squatted, pulled, rowed, standing pressed, and all of that with heavy heavy weights you just haven't tried hard enough. part of getting as big as possible is getting as strong as possible, and you need to suck it up and lift.