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  1. #1
    samwill226 is offline New Member
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    Little soreness in Bi or Tri

    Ok guys I'm in panic mode a little here. This is my Bi and Tri routine.

    4 x 10 Standing BB curl (with writst pain end up squeezing out 70lbs on the last set)
    4 x 10 Incline Hammer Curls (last set is 35 lbs)
    2/3 x 10 EZ Bar curls (like a preacer curl, end up doing this just to feel better usually but I'll do about 70 lbs here)

    Tri
    4 x 10 Close grip bench (Last one was 120 lbs)
    4 X 10 Skull Crushers (Last workout 70 lbs)

    On back day on my pull downs I'll throw in Tri pulldowns (about 70 lbs).


    Anyway on my other workouts I feel sore which is great. On Bi's and Tri's I have very little and if so to feel it I have to pull my fist to my chest and flex to feel it and thats usually in my lower Bi?

    It isn't like my chest where no matter what I do I feel sore throughout the next few days after a workout. Weight too low not enough? Too much or overworked? I do each body part once a week.

    Any idea why this is going on, I hate feeling like I'm not doing anything.

  2. #2
    Flexor is offline Banned
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    I combined a few of my recent posts that relate to this topic.

    Reasons for lack of soreness

    First of all the biceps are not the only elbow flexor. The brachialis and brachioradialis are both significantly activated during all curling movements, and therefore whatever weight you use, not all of it is being lifted using purely the biceps. This takes the stress off them and leads to less damage being caused.

    Secondly, legs, chest and back are bigger muscle groups and therefore they can be worked with greater weight. These heavy compound exercises recruit more muscle fibres and cause more damage, so they ache more easily.

    Thirdly, the biomechanics of the biceps is different. Leverages for standing barbell curls are poor at the top of the movement and the bones take up the tension, so the biceps are not worked hard enough. Multi-joint exercises maintain more tension in the biceps, so heavy underhand rows or yates rows and underhand or overhand chins are best for this, along with preachers. Preachers are not a pure mass building exercise though, rather a supplementary or auxilliary exercise which should be used in conjunction with compound mass exercises like the ones I described.

    A fourth point, unlike all the other muscles, you cannot pre-stretch the biceps unless your upper arms are behind your back. So, lying on an incline bench and performing incline supinating dumbell curls will pre-stretch the biceps and cause more damage. Back, chest and triceps can all be stretched at the bottom of each rep which causes high levels of damage.

    Whatever anyone says about soreness not being an indicator of muscle growth, its obvious to anyone that greater muscle soreness is better than no muscle soreness!!! So, why not make them sore??

    Solutions to the problem

    If my biceps aren't sore enough, I add one or two of these things in. You've got to keep the biceps sore by changing things one at a time.

    1.) Add more time to the eccentric lowering
    2.) Add an Extended Peak Contraction on the last rep of each set
    3.) Incline dumbell curls!!!! They pre-stretch the bis and are very important
    4.) Lift explosively at the bottom of each rep but slow as you reach the top so that you don't take all the pressure off the bis using momentum.

    A possible workout

    Bis:

    3 sets underhand rows (will reduce wrist problems from BB curls and will allow more weight to be used, hits the bis hard)
    3 sets Preacher curls
    3 sets Incline dumbell curls

    Tris:

    3 sets Close grip bench
    3 sets Tricep dips
    3 sets skullcrushers

    This is very similar to your own workout, because what you have is already very good. Only a few changes, such as the rows for biceps. I had to stop barbell curls because of wrist and forearm problems, and now I combine back with biceps and I've found there is much more soreness.

  3. #3
    samwill226 is offline New Member
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    Thanks man!

  4. #4
    Flexor is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by samwill226
    Thanks man!
    No problem bro, it was only a little copying and pasting. I'd already done most of the typing

  5. #5
    kaptainkeezy04's Avatar
    kaptainkeezy04 is offline Anabolic Member
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    bis and tris repair faster than anyother muscle...so do abs and cavles

  6. #6
    samwill226 is offline New Member
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    I mean trust me I feel the pump when I'm done working them, to the point where my arms shake when I hold an empty glass, can't take off my shirt for a shower hardly. They hurt real nice until the next day...nothing? I can't figure it out. I really don't think I'm over working them, I'm getting some growth. I'm going to try that underhand row, the preacher, and the incline curl. I'll leave my hammers I like the arch they build.

    Thanks again everyone.

  7. #7
    kaptainkeezy04's Avatar
    kaptainkeezy04 is offline Anabolic Member
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    dude bis hardly ever get sore...maybe like the day after they are worked, and only for a little bit cuz they repair super fast.

  8. #8
    Flexor is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by samwill226
    I mean trust me I feel the pump when I'm done working them, to the point where my arms shake when I hold an empty glass, can't take off my shirt for a shower hardly. They hurt real nice until the next day...nothing? I can't figure it out. I really don't think I'm over working them, I'm getting some growth. I'm going to try that underhand row, the preacher, and the incline curl. I'll leave my hammers I like the arch they build.

    Thanks again everyone.
    The shaking is indicative of a fried nervous system which is normal. It means you have worked out to a high intensity, and that is good. It sounds like you have become super adapted to your workout no matter how hard you do it, so changing it around will make your bis sore again. Then you will adapt again and not get sore, so you switch it up again. Its not essential to get your bis to ache, but you might as well try because I'd reckon anyone would take an ache over no ache. Its good mentally if for nothing else.

  9. #9
    samwill226 is offline New Member
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    How about high pulley cable curls? I messed around with them the other night and I tired the bicep a little. I heard high pulley curls and underhanded cable pulldowns will help as well? Any thoughts? Can you get good mass on a cable work out for bi's?

    Thanks again!

  10. #10
    kaptainkeezy04's Avatar
    kaptainkeezy04 is offline Anabolic Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by samwill226
    How about high pulley cable curls? I messed around with them the other night and I tired the bicep a little. I heard high pulley curls and underhanded cable pulldowns will help as well? Any thoughts? Can you get good mass on a cable work out for bi's?

    Thanks again!
    if you really want some mass on them bis it would be best to stick to the freeweights...what i do on every rep is squeeeeeeze at the top and when you cant go anymore cheat out 2 more reps on every set. but try less cable exercises.

  11. #11
    Flexor is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaptainkeezy04
    if you really want some mass on them bis it would be best to stick to the freeweights...what i do on every rep is squeeeeeeze at the top and when you cant go anymore cheat out 2 more reps on every set. but try less cable exercises.
    I agree with you. kk04, do you do the 2 cheat reps to try to stimulate hyperplasia? Its just that forced or partial reps are apparantly a way of doing this according to new research that someone posted on this board. Just wondering what your reason was for the 2 extra reps.

  12. #12
    kaptainkeezy04's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flexor
    I agree with you. kk04, do you do the 2 cheat reps to try to stimulate hyperplasia? Its just that forced or partial reps are apparantly a way of doing this according to new research that someone posted on this board. Just wondering what your reason was for the 2 extra reps.

    lets say im doing barbell curls. i start out the set with 6-7 strict slow reps and squeeze at the top at every rep...then once i cant go strict anymore i cheat 2 reps out but keep squeezing at the top (this does take some shouting to accomplish). i can just imagine my biceps thinking to themselves, "MAN WHAT THE F*CK IS THIS GUY DOING TO US! WE HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO GROW NOW!" lol poor biceps

  13. #13
    Flexor is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by kaptainkeezy04
    "MAN WHAT THE F*CK IS THIS GUY DOING TO US! WE HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO GROW NOW!" lol poor biceps
    Thats the funniest thing i've heard all day. You make it sound as if you are torturing them!

    Imagine if you saw some dude speaking to his biceps, "you WILL tell me the best way to stimulate yo sorry a$$!!", as hes forcing out 2 more punishing spider curls and rips the tendon from the bone, cursing "you sons of b*tches, you call that payback?" And his biceps are laughing "hehehehe, our secrets will never be yours!"



    Sorry, I digress

    still ROTFLMAO

  14. #14
    samwill226 is offline New Member
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    Gotch ya. I just was fooling around on my off day and saw my lat tower could be used for something other than lats. I just pictured the mechanics maybe putting the weight directly on the bicep with a high pulley cable pull instead of barbell curls for instance focusing on the elbow area. I will say on the same day I tried just a few quick underhanded rows. Its ackward at first but I felt some tightness in my bicep. I can't wait to try them full throttle.

    Just an idea on the cables thanks for all the input!

    Sam

  15. #15
    Flexor is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by samwill226
    Gotch ya. I just was fooling around on my off day and saw my lat tower could be used for something other than lats. I just pictured the mechanics maybe putting the weight directly on the bicep with a high pulley cable pull instead of barbell curls for instance focusing on the elbow area. I will say on the same day I tried just a few quick underhanded rows. Its ackward at first but I felt some tightness in my bicep. I can't wait to try them full throttle.

    Just an idea on the cables thanks for all the input!

    Sam
    Sweet. The cable type exercise will not build your biceps that well IMO. Interesting idea though.

    Do the underhand rows sort of stiff-legged, and along with deads they will fix your hams!!! About the underhand grip, it is awkward, but it can be sorted by either holding the weight in your fingertips or by using a strong cambered bar, or by wearing some kind of gel glove. You can also vary how much you stand up. Standing up more will hit the biceps harder, but you may have to drop the weight slightly. Gauge it how you see fit and you will find the best way of doing them.
    Last edited by Flexor; 11-14-2005 at 12:34 PM.

  16. #16
    samwill226 is offline New Member
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    Awesome, it seems to work and the coolest part is underhand rows would be the last thing I would have thought of. Thanks again!

  17. #17
    samwill226 is offline New Member
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    Tri's are sore today!!!!!! Thanks friends! Now Bicep and Back is Wednesday keep your fingers crossed.

    Oh but one thing. I am learning to put bodyparts together , like Tri's and Chest and Back and Bicep...etc. I noticed when I started this, I went from Flat Bench, Flies, then a few Tri workouts like Close Grip, then on my Incline I lost a ton of strength. Is it because I messed with Tri's before I completed my chest routine? I lost about 40 pounds on my incline, but it wasn't my chest it felt like my arms were quitting on me?? Any ideas?

    Thanks !!!!

  18. #18
    kaptainkeezy04's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by samwill226
    Tri's are sore today!!!!!! Thanks friends! Now Bicep and Back is Wednesday keep your fingers crossed.

    Oh but one thing. I am learning to put bodyparts together , like Tri's and Chest and Back and Bicep...etc. I noticed when I started this, I went from Flat Bench, Flies, then a few Tri workouts like Close Grip, then on my Incline I lost a ton of strength. Is it because I messed with Tri's before I completed my chest routine? I lost about 40 pounds on my incline, but it wasn't my chest it felt like my arms were quitting on me?? Any ideas?

    Thanks !!!!
    yeah do your triceps when you are done with your chest routine and remember not to go to narrow on close grip bench press because a lot of the weight will be on your wrist instead of tricep....also the wider you go on a bench press, the more you will be working your chest.

  19. #19
    Flexor is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by samwill226
    Tri's are sore today!!!!!! Thanks friends! Now Bicep and Back is Wednesday keep your fingers crossed.

    Oh but one thing. I am learning to put bodyparts together , like Tri's and Chest and Back and Bicep...etc. I noticed when I started this, I went from Flat Bench, Flies, then a few Tri workouts like Close Grip, then on my Incline I lost a ton of strength. Is it because I messed with Tri's before I completed my chest routine? I lost about 40 pounds on my incline, but it wasn't my chest it felt like my arms were quitting on me?? Any ideas?

    Thanks !!!!
    I agree with keezy about doing the tris after chest, this is because it doesn't matter what part your chest plays in close grip. Preferably, you exhaust the chest first so that the triceps take more of the load in the close grip. Your arms will be tired by the time you get around to close grip because the chest routine (especially with dips) will knacker your tris. For that reason I do dips as both a chest and tri workout at the same time and don't bother with close grip, but thats me personally. The tris are used the same whatever way you do dips, its just you get varying degrees of pec/lat/anterior deltoid recruitment.

    As for incline, I HATE it, but I'll save that for another time.
    Last edited by Flexor; 11-15-2005 at 11:36 AM.

  20. #20
    samwill226 is offline New Member
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    Cool. I'll wait for the other time, but I'm curious on your criticism of incline with your knowledge. But I will be patient.

    Thanks!

  21. #21
    Flexor is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by samwill226
    Cool. I'll wait for the other time, but I'm curious on your criticism of incline with your knowledge. But I will be patient.

    Thanks!
    I don't know who wrote this article, but its interesting and will give you a new perspective on working out. I DID NOT WRITE THIS, but some clever dude did.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    "The existence of the so-called "upper", "lower", "inner" and "outer" pectorals along with the assertion that it is possible to isolate one or more of these to the relative exclusion of the others in training, are among the most firmly entrenched myths in Strength Training and Bodybuilding circles. In fact none of these truly exist as either separate and distinct muscles or regions in a functional sense. Even though it could be argued that there appears to be a structural distinction between the upper and lower pectorals (and some anatomy texts do in fact support this distinction though not all do) because the pectoralis-major does originate from both the sternum and the proximal or sternal half of the clavicle along it’s anterior surface (it also has connections to the cartilages of all the true ribs with the frequent exception of the first and seventh, and to the Aponeurosis of the external oblique muscle), this is considered to be a common (though extensive) origin in terms of the mechanical function of the muscle. Thus the pectoralis-major is in fact for all practical purposes one continuous muscle with a common origin and insertion, and functions as a single force-producing unit. The terms upper, lower, inner and outer are imprecise and relevant only in order to make a vague subjective distinction between relative portions of the same muscle for descriptive purposes. They are vague and imprecise terms because there is no clearly delineated or universally defined border between them.

    Further it is not physically possible either in theory or practice to contract one region of a single muscle to the exclusion of another region or regions (as a Biomechanics Professor of mine once demonstrated to a bunch of us smart-ass know-it-all’s taking his course, using EMG analysis). When a muscle contracts it does so in a linear fashion by simultaneously reducing the length of its constituent fibers and thus its overall length from origin to insertion. Even where a single muscle is separated into multiple functional units that are clearly defined such as the triceps (which are referred to as “heads” by Anatomists and Biomechanists), because they share a common point of insertion in order for one head to shorten all must shorten. This only makes sense if you think about it because otherwise there would be “slack” in one when the other shortened, which as we know does not occur. Note that there are some special cases where one head of a muscle must actually lengthen when the other shortens (e.g. the posterior head of the deltoid in relation to the anterior head during the positive stroke of fly’s), the point however is that even in these special cases there is no “slack” because there is in fact contractile activity (whether concentric or eccentric) throughout the muscle.

    That is not to say however, that all fibers in different areas, or heads are necessarily shortened to the same degree during a particular movement. Depending on the shape of the muscle, the joint geometry involved, and the specific movement being performed, fibers in one area of a muscle or head may be required to shorten more or less than in others (or even to lengthen) in order to complete the required movement. For example during a decline fly though muscle fibers in all regions of the pectoralis-major must shorten as the upper arm is drawn towards the median plane of the body, because of the angle of the arm in relation to the trunk the fibers in what we commonly refer to as the lower pecs will have shortened by a greater percentage of their overall length than those in the upper region of the muscle by the completion of the movement. Conversely when performing an incline fly there is greater shortening in the fibers towards the upper portion of the muscle than in the lower.
    Many proponents of the so-called “isolation” approach to training claim that this proportionally greater shortening of the fibers equates to greater tension in the “target” region than in others, and therefore stimulates greater adaptation; but this is completely at odds with the cross-bridge model of muscle contraction which clearly shows that as fiber length decreases tension also declines due to increasing overlap and interference in the area of the cross-bridges. Some also contend that the fibers called upon to shorten to a greater degree tend to fatigue faster than others and that therefore there is greater overall fiber recruitment in the region where this occurs, and thus a greater stimulus to growth; but there is no evidence to suggest that a fiber fatigues faster in one position than in another in relation to other fibers in the same muscle. In fact it has been shown that Time Under Tension (TUT) is the determining factor in fatigue and not fiber length. In fact fiber recruitment tends to increase in a very uniform fashion throughout an entire muscle as fatigue sets in.

    The ability to “isolate” a head, or region of a muscle to the exclusion of others by performing a particular movement, or by limiting movement to a particular plane and thus develop it to a greater degree, is a myth created by people who wish to appear more knowledgeable than they are, and has been perpetuated by trade magazines and parroted throughout gyms everywhere. It is pure non-sense and completely ignores the applicable elements of physiology, anatomy, and physics in particular. Quite simply the science does not support it, and in most cases is completely at odds with the idea.
    Regardless of the science however, many people will remain firmly convinced that muscle isolation is a reality because they can “feel” different movements more in one region of a muscle than in others. This I do not dispute, nor does science. There is in fact differentiated neural feedback from motor units depending on the relative length of the component fibers, and this feedback tends to be (or is interpreted by the brain as) more intense when the fibers in question are either shortened (contracted) or lengthened (stretched) in the extreme. However this has to do with proprioception (the ability to sense the orientation and relative position of your body in space by interpreting neural feedback related to muscle fiber length and joint position) and not tension, fatigue, or level of fiber recruitment. Unfortunately it has been seized upon and offered up as “evidence” by those looking to support their ideas by any means available.

    Muscle shape is a function of genetics and degree of overall development. As you develop a muscle towards its potential, it does change in appearance (generally for the better) but always within the parameters defined by its inherent shape. A person who tends to have proportionately more mass towards the upper, lower, inner or outer region of his or her pectoralis-major will always have that tendency, though it may be more or less apparent at various stages in their development, and in most cases appears less pronounced as overall development proceeds. That is not to say that training a muscle group from multiple angles is totally without value. In fact we know that even subtly different movements can elicit varying levels of fiber recruitment within a muscle in an overall sense (i.e. in terms of the percentage of total available fibers) due to differences in joint mechanics, and neural activation patterns, as well as varying involvement of synergistic and antagonistic muscle groups involved. So by all means experiment with different angles in your training, but don’t expect to be able to correct so-called “unbalanced” muscles this way, or to target specific areas of a particular muscle. Work to develop each of your muscles as completely as possible and shape will take care of itself. If you want to worry about “shaping” you should pay more attention to the balance between different muscle groups and work to bring up any weak groups you may have in relation to the rest of your physique."

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    So to conclude, my criticism of the incline bench is that it offers little more than the flat bench, other than an increased shoulder workout. If you have a wide grip on the flat bench and flare out your elbows, bringing the bar an inch or two above the nipples, it works the top and bottom pec better than anything else and will cause overall development. Incline will cause a greater shortening of the clavicular pec, but as the science says in this article, increased shortening reduces tension and doesn't necessarily mean a better workout. The 'feeling' of incline working the top pec is unreliable because proprioception is just a feeling.

    What I will say about incline is that it hits the pecs at a different angle and will cause growth this way. It's not causing growth because its hitting the clavicular pec harder, because its not, its just working it differently. Incline is just a shoulder workout in my opinion, and leads to anterior delt overtraining when combined with flat bench, decline bench and military presses. I hope not too many people read this, because I'm not in the mood for disputing indisputable science. I used to be closed minded, but now I am always willing to change what I believe, as I did after reading this article.
    Last edited by Flexor; 11-15-2005 at 01:00 PM.

  22. #22
    samwill226 is offline New Member
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    That is incredibly interesting and worth a big consideration. Yes I have seen something from Incline, but I have also felt alot of shoulder pain from it. It would be nice to cut it out and do something more constructive. We have so much yet to discover with the body, I think we have to listen to everything and take it in. This article will help me and others figure out their own correct routines. Thanks for sharing it. It is really food for thought.

    Thanks for all your expert advice!

  23. #23
    Flexor is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by samwill226
    That is incredibly interesting and worth a big consideration. Yes I have seen something from Incline, but I have also felt alot of shoulder pain from it. It would be nice to cut it out and do something more constructive. We have so much yet to discover with the body, I think we have to listen to everything and take it in. This article will help me and others figure out their own correct routines. Thanks for sharing it. It is really food for thought.

    Thanks for all your expert advice!
    No problem! I'm no expert though, I'm just keen to learn and to make balanced judgements based on fact!

    Let me know how your routine goes...

  24. #24
    philiioniyodealio's Avatar
    philiioniyodealio is offline Junior Member
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    No More Incline!!!!!!!

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