Cialis Question....

[tryingtogetbig]

i agree with bask8kace. the references i'm about to list seem to indicate that tadafanil is the most selective of the three drugs.

Porst H. Int J Impot Res. 2002 Feb;14 Suppl 1:S57-64.

Eardley I, Cartledge J. Int J Clin Pract. 2002 May;56(4):300-4

Brock G. Educational forum-II. Can J Urol 2001; 8(6):1419-1420

there might be more data available in:
Curr Urol Rep. 2003 Dec;4(6):472-8
but i haven't been able to secure the article yet

please list any sources that provide information to the contrary. i would definitely like to review them and incorporate them into my own practice.

Okay, since this was used against my arguement...I couldn't let it go.

First reference:

Here is the actual link: http://www.usrf.org/breakingnews/bn_..._abstract.html

Porst H. Int J Impot Res. 2002 Feb;14 Suppl 1:S57-64.
This study says nothing about Cialis being more selective than anything...including Tylenol.....all it talks about is Cialis...I think its a press release or something.

Second reference:

Here is the actual link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

Eardley I, Cartledge J. Int J Clin Pract. 2002 May;56(4):300-4
This says it has "significant potency" towards the PDE5 enzyme....what does that mean?


Third reference:
Brock. I couldn't find which article by him you are referring to.

[BASK8KACE]

TTGB,

Now, I can come clean--after my initial search, I took some time to surf the net a few days later, and I found evidence supporting SOME of what you said. So, I eventually found that Cialis is not the most specific of the three (this was just cursory reading). But, I couldn't find much to support your claims that Levitra had less sides than the other two.

I wanted to play devil's advocate and hold your feet to the fire since you mentioned that you had proof. I'm glad you took time to post the references. I will read them tomorrow morning.

I like having discussions when people are willing to go the distance to really get to the bottom of an issue. So this is all good stuff.

[tryingtogetbig]

TTGB,

Now, I can come clean--after my initial search, I took some time to surf the net a few days later, and I found evidence supporting SOME of what you said. So, I eventually found that Cialis is not the most specific of the three (this was just cursory reading). But, I couldn't find much to support your claims that Levitra had less sides than the other two.

I wanted to play devil's advocate and hold your feet to the fire since you mentioned that you had proof. I'm glad you took time to post the references. I will read them tomorrow morning.

I like having discussions when people are willing to go the distance to really get to the bottom of an issue. So this is all good stuff.

No problem bro....I knew you were busting my balls over posting it, I just didn't want to take time away from the wife over the weekend putting it all together.

[tryingtogetbig]

....and again....my main concern with everything is the generic stuff that everybody is buying combined with the half-life. If everyone was getting actual Cialis pills, it would not be near as big of a deal to me.

peace,

ttgb

[BASK8KACE]

....and again....my main concern with everything is the generic stuff that everybody is buying combined with the half-life. If everyone was getting actual Cialis pills, it would not be near as big of a deal to me.

peace,

ttgb

It's more of a problem than many realize. However, once one finds a legit source and gets over the fear of playing Russian Roulette with his/her health by buying underground lab gear, fear of impure gear/ancillaries fades more than it should.

[Froggy]

The only reference I need is from "Ole One Eye"

This has been a great thread...thanks for all the references everyone involved...I have not tried levitra yet, but look forward to it as does "One Eye"...Cialis works very well, But with some minor sides...Viagra; not as impressed with but it was from UG.
Okay, I'm going to go read all those references now...Thanks again guys & gals.

[sinista63]

Okay, since this was used against my arguement...I couldn't let it go.

First reference:

Here is the actual link: http://www.usrf.org/breakingnews/bn_..._abstract.html

Porst H. Int J Impot Res. 2002 Feb;14 Suppl 1:S57-64.
This study says nothing about Cialis being more selective than anything...including Tylenol.....all it talks about is Cialis...I think its a press release or something.

Second reference:

Here is the actual link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

Eardley I, Cartledge J. Int J Clin Pract. 2002 May;56(4):300-4
This says it has "significant potency" towards the PDE5 enzyme....what does that mean?


Third reference:
Brock. I couldn't find which article by him you are referring to.

i'll try to organize my response

1. thank you for taking the time to post your references as i can tell that took some time. my original support of bask8kace was in the statement that he made concerning the selectivity of cialis. nowhere in your references does it state the selectivity ratios for vardenafil vs. tadalafil. the studies that i listed aside, if you look at Seanz de Tejada et al. Int J Impot Res 2002; 14(Supp4):20 (this was actually a quick rehash of a poster presentation by the authors) and Bischoff E. Int J Impot Res 2004; 16: S11-14, you will see that, based on in vitro data, cialis has a greater selectivity for PDE5 than the other PDE isoenzymes. it is also more selective across the board than the sildenafil and vardenafil. the only downfall is that it is more selective than the other two agents for PDE11 which may be the reason for the backpain that may be associated with it. PDE11 is also localized in other tissues (prostate, liver, kidney, pituitary, testis) and what problems this may cause has not been completely elucidated at this point. so yes, cialis, with time, may be found to be inferior to levitra due to its side effect profile but this is not currently the case.

2. you state that levitra is not selective for the PDE6 enzyme which causes vision disturbances but in my review of the literature, i found articles (see above) that show levitra to be more selective for PDE6 than sildenafil.

3. good job finding the articles i posted as references. but as advice for future discussions, do not tear apart the references i posted based on the abstracts of the articles. i know that there are not many AR members that have access to these full-text articles, but i'm not one to post references without having read the complete article unless the article was published in the Journal of Obscure Medicine and is totally unaccessable to me (I was spoiled for years having Harvard's Medical Library in my backyard, but now that I'm in Vegas I do not have this luxury). The Porst article was not a press release. I do not use press releases nor to I use webpages (unless there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in the scientific literature) to back up my statements. It was a review article published in the International Journal of Impotence Research. What you found was a website that simply copied and pasted the abstract from the article. The abstract does not contain all the information that the full text contains in regards to the selectivity of the drug.

4. i do agree that levitra is more potent than cialis (this is evidenced by the lower concentration required for inhibition of the PDE5 enzyme, 2 nmol/ml vs. 0.7 nmol/ml) (Sorbera et al. Drugs Fut 2001;26:15-19) but in no way does this mean that it is more selective. selectivity and potency are not to be confused (as has been stated by SexyKitty). when you use the term "focused", i take it as you stating "selective" which would not be the case in the many instances you used that terminology.

5. as has been stated by others (including yourself), trial and error is currently the only way to figure out which is better for a patient. this is until head-to-head randomized trials are performed.

6. "significant potency" means that the drug causes a statistically significant inhibition of PDE5 (in this case) as compared to placebo. the abstract is uninformative as to the selectivity of the agents. you need the full-text for that.

7. you need access to the canadian journal of urology for that last article. i only have a hard copy of the article but i might be able to dig something up in electronic form and email it to you if you so desire.

my thoughts have been a little scattered today. hopefully this somehow organized my thoughts and made them a little easier to read. this is one hell of a discussion. probably one of the better ones i've been a part of. so kudos to you tryingtogetbig. hopefully you don't find my comments to be any type of personal attack. i'm just adding 2 more cents into the debate.

peace

[Dally]

I know a good spot to get some cialis

yep

good ol pills for the one eye

not that I am a source or can get one .. just wanted to mention

later!!

[sinista63]

....and again....my main concern with everything is the generic stuff that everybody is buying combined with the half-life. If everyone was getting actual Cialis pills, it would not be near as big of a deal to me.

peace,

ttgb

good point

[tryingtogetbig]

i'll try to organize my response

1. thank you for taking the time to post your references as i can tell that took some time. my original support of bask8kace was in the statement that he made concerning the selectivity of cialis. nowhere in your references does it state the selectivity ratios for vardenafil vs. tadalafil. the studies that i listed aside, if you look at Seanz de Tejada et al. Int J Impot Res 2002; 14(Supp4):20 (this was actually a quick rehash of a poster presentation by the authors) and Bischoff E. Int J Impot Res 2004; 16: S11-14, you will see that, based on in vitro data, cialis has a greater selectivity for PDE5 than the other PDE isoenzymes. it is also more selective across the board than the sildenafil and vardenafil. the only downfall is that it is more selective than the other two agents for PDE11 which may be the reason for the backpain that may be associated with it. PDE11 is also localized in other tissues (prostate, liver, kidney, pituitary, testis) and what problems this may cause has not been completely elucidated at this point. so yes, cialis, with time, may be found to be inferior to levitra due to its side effect profile but this is not currently the case.

2. you state that levitra is not selective for the PDE6 enzyme which causes vision disturbances but in my review of the literature, i found articles (see above) that show levitra to be more selective for PDE6 than sildenafil.

3. good job finding the articles i posted as references. but as advice for future discussions, do not tear apart the references i posted based on the abstracts of the articles. i know that there are not many AR members that have access to these full-text articles, but i'm not one to post references without having read the complete article unless the article was published in the Journal of Obscure Medicine and is totally unaccessable to me (I was spoiled for years having Harvard's Medical Library in my backyard, but now that I'm in Vegas I do not have this luxury). The Porst article was not a press release. I do not use press releases nor to I use webpages (unless there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in the scientific literature) to back up my statements. It was a review article published in the International Journal of Impotence Research. What you found was a website that simply copied and pasted the abstract from the article. The abstract does not contain all the information that the full text contains in regards to the selectivity of the drug.

4. i do agree that levitra is more potent than cialis (this is evidenced by the lower concentration required for inhibition of the PDE5 enzyme, 2 nmol/ml vs. 0.7 nmol/ml) (Sorbera et al. Drugs Fut 2001;26:15-19) but in no way does this mean that it is more selective. selectivity and potency are not to be confused (as has been stated by SexyKitty). when you use the term "focused", i take it as you stating "selective" which would not be the case in the many instances you used that terminology.

5. as has been stated by others (including yourself), trial and error is currently the only way to figure out which is better for a patient. this is until head-to-head randomized trials are performed.

6. "significant potency" means that the drug causes a statistically significant inhibition of PDE5 (in this case) as compared to placebo. the abstract is uninformative as to the selectivity of the agents. you need the full-text for that.

7. you need access to the canadian journal of urology for that last article. i only have a hard copy of the article but i might be able to dig something up in electronic form and email it to you if you so desire.

my thoughts have been a little scattered today. hopefully this somehow organized my thoughts and made them a little easier to read. this is one hell of a discussion. probably one of the better ones i've been a part of. so kudos to you tryingtogetbig. hopefully you don't find my comments to be any type of personal attack. i'm just adding 2 more cents into the debate.

peace

LOL!! I thought I might get a more in depth response from you if I rattled your chain a little bit. When you mentioned Brock I had a feeling you were familiar with the information...I just wasn't going to post a link to him....in other words I wanted to let you say which study you wanted to talk about.

Yeah, I had troubles looking up directly which studies you were referring to (especially finding them online)...that's why I was giving you a hard time bro. After I went through all of the trouble posting references, etc I wanted somebody else to have to do the same!

I am really interested in reading your post a little more in depth...but it will have to be later tonight or tomorrow morning before I'll be able to respond. Already I have a couple of questions regarding the studies (especially the Tejada study I think it was) you mentioned....always looking to learn.

Thanks for not taking my reply to your original post not too seriously....

peace,

ttgb

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