HCG... amazing stuff, isn't it?

[The Baron]

Running 333iu E3D of hcg . Yeah I know, odd numbers, but 15cc of BW is all I could get into the vial with the 10000 units of dried stuff. I crunched the numbers, and okay, 666.6 iu/ml, so I use a nice, convenient .5cc. Anyway, after only three shots, E3D, I have almost all the ball size back, and a notable iibido increase. I intend to run it out to the end of the cycle. Currently running cyp, fina, and deca , and I will be adding winny in a week, stopping the deca in 3 or 4 weeks, stopping the rest the end of the first week of august. I got shut down pretty good, and the ol' unit was working teriffic until about 3 weeks ago when I figured I needed to up the letro dose. Lately the little fellow had been performing in a lackluster manner, and indicated by the ball shrinkage, it seemed like a good time to start the hcg. I could not possibly be more pleased with any gear-related substance than what this stuff is doing for me. I am thinking next time dilute it down even more and use a smaller dose. The less, the better, right, as long as it is working?

So what is the lowest dose anybody here has used successfully? Also who has an opinion on injections of hcg other than intramuscular? I have a box of insulin rigs that I would kinda like to use up, and sub-q hcg shots would be just the use for them, I think.

[Mesomorphyl]

I would not have upped the letro but added nolva as nolva will help make sure hcg does not desensitize the leydig cells as well as help with the boost of test/estrogen sides. Look below:

Tamoxifen Blocks HCG Induced Leydig Cell Desensitization

Posted by Nandi12 on CEM


Tamoxifen Blocks HCG Induced Leydig Cell Desensitization
HCG induced testicular desensitization seems to be a hot topic. There are a number of studies showing that concomitant use of Nolvadex ameliorates this. The first abstract suggests that HCG at least partially blocks the conversion of 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone (17 OHP), a testosterone precursor, to testosterone. This effect is suppressed by Nolvadex.

The second abstract seems to indicate that estrogen may not be the only culprit, since Nolvadex plus HCG does not increase T levels any more than HCG alone, even though the combination reduces desensitization.

Since we are trying to avoid this desensitization so when we quit the HCG our testes respond to our endogenous LH, it makes sense to always use nolvadex with HCG to at least help the problem, if not solve it completely.


J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1980 Nov;51(5):1026-9

Tamoxifen suppresses gonadotropin-induced 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone accumulation in normal men.

Smals AG, Pieters GF, Drayer JI, Boers GH, Benraad TJ, Kloppenborg PW.

Intramuscular administration of 1500 IU hCG daily for 3 days induced a transient accumulation of 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone (17 OHP) relative to testosterone (T) in normal men, reaching its maximum 24 h after the first injection (17 OHP to T ratio, 1.7 +/- 0.3 times baseline; P < 0.01). Simultaneous administration of hCG and the estrogen antagonist tamoxifen (20 mg twice daily) almost completely abolished the hCG-induced steroidogenic block localized between 17 OHP and T (17 OHP to T ratio at 24 h, 1.1 +/- 0.1 times baseline; P < 0.01 vs. hCG alone). These data indirectly suggest that, in man, the hCG-induced steroidogenic lesion might be mediated through its estrogen-stimulating effect.



Andrologia 1991 Mar-Apr;23(2):109-14

Effect of an antiestrogen on the testicular response to acute and chronic administration of hCG in normal and hypogonadotropic hypogonadic men: tamoxifen and testicular response to hCG.

Levalle OA, Suescun MO, Fiszlejder L, Aszpis S, Charreau E, Guitelman A, Calandra R.

Division Endocrinologia, Hospital Carlos Durand, Instituto de Biologia y Medicina Experimental, Buenos Aires, Argentina.

The effect of the antiestrogen tamoxifen (Tx) on the acute and chronic hCG administration was evaluated in patients with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism (HH) and in normal men. An hCG test (5000 IU hCG) was performed before, after two months of hCG administration (2000 IU hCG three times weekly) and after two months of hCG + Tx (2000 IU hCG three times weekly plus 20 mg/day of tamoxifen). Blood samples were obtained before and following 24 and 72 h of every test to determine T, E, 17OHP and SHBG. T increased only in HH with both treatments (X +/- SEM: Basal: 97.9 +/- 19.7; hCG: 237.7 +/- 43.2; hCG +/- Tx: 204.7 +/- 10.7 ng/100 ml). 17OHP rose with hCG alone, but not with hCG + Tx in both groups. E, SHBG and 17OHP/T ratio did not change after treatments. hCG tests: E increased 24 h following hCG administration in every test. The ratio 17OHP/T rose at 24 h in the first and second test but in the third test it did not change. These results support the role of E in the acute hCG-induced Leydig cell desensitization. However, the association of Tx does not improve T serum levels, suggesting that E might not be the unique factor involved in the mechanisms for testicular desensitization.

[muscularmodel]

sub q all I do, small shots 250 iu spread out over 2 weeks always does the trick for me along with an anti e

[The Baron]

I would not have upped the letro but added nolva as nolva will help make sure hcg does not desensitize the leydig cells as well as help with the boost of test/estrogen sides. Look below: (snip of a darn good post)

Thanks for that, Mes. I am running 40mg nolva at present. Had a small gyno episode and I have been tapering off of the nolva from where I pushed it up to 100mg. I made up some bad syno and it was giving me probs... even 100mg/day of nolva wasn't controlling it. Stopped the synoprop which was just a jumpstart anyway alongside my cyp, and started the letro to try to reduce the lumps. Seems to have worked fairly well. Just ran out, actually, and using anastrozole and the nolva, also a bit of cabergoline because I am running fina and deca same time... trying to strike a balance here but I don't dare let the gyno flare up. Still got lumps, of course, but the size and sensitivity are way down and I can live with it like this. They are smaller than pea-sized and there is no fatty buildup and the nips are not pendulous so really nobody can tell, but me, now.

That is interesting, about the nolva preventing leydig cell desensitization. Outstanding research and an important bit of knowledge. Another good reason to run nolva as a matter of course.

[The Baron]

sub q all I do, small shots 250 iu spread out over 2 weeks always does the trick for me along with an anti e

I like the sound of that. Maybe I ought to cut back to 1/4cc which would be 166iu, E3D... or go EOD with that dose. I know next time I will try a lower dose than what I am using now.

[Mesomorphyl]

So what is the lowest dose anybody here has used successfully? Also who has an opinion on injections of hcg other than intramuscular?

I used 1000iu, 2000iu, and 2500iu successfully. I use the catch up method as I believe the smaller dose all the way through is for HRT and never come off. So if you cycle my opinion would be use it mid cycle and end of cycle nearing pct. Either 1000iu for 10 days strait or 2000-2500iu every 4 days for a total of 4-5 shots five days prior to the commencement of PCT. IMHO

IM shots for me.

[dtr98]

was running a combo of sust, prop, deca , eq, test e and dbol for a long time and was going 500ius of hcg split 2x wk at wk 5 sub-q and had good luck with it. also ran nolva 10mg ed and letro 1.25mg eod.