Deca for joint pain

**Juggernaut71** · 07-16-2005, 02:16 PM

I want to do a low dose cycle of deca . I was thinking of deca @ 200mg's/week for 10 weeks. I really just want to do the deca to ease my REALLY bad right shoulder pain as I've heard it does wonders???

I've done test cypionate stacked with winnie before, winnie on it's own, D-bol etc etc etc and had great results over 10 years ago. Thing is that right now I weigh 285 lbs fairly lean and really don't want to get that much bigger to be honest - I just want to try something to ease the joint pain before opting for surgery!!!

Any feedback on this guys? Should I add something else to the deca like some test? I have D-bol, winnie and a few differents tests available to me. I'm 34 and eat very clean, high protein - low fat, lots of supplements, water etc. I train hard - for strongman comps actually - so all those bases are covered. If my shoulder didn't KILL me I wouldn't even be considering gear - as I gave it up years ago and I get awesome results without it. But deca sounds tempting.

I just want to do the lowest doses possible to get some results without side effects. I don't care about size but could use some more LEAN mass LOL

Help me out guys OK - thanks

**justin2305** · 07-16-2005, 02:41 PM

if u wanna keep mr. wankie up and running i would deff. add atleast 400mgs of test, ive also heard great things bout deca for joints and thats y ill be running deca in my coming up cycle... if ur not trying to gain much size just use good work and eating ethics and u should be able to make this cycle more towards leaning out a bit or hardening up, if u gain a lil more size than expected i would through in some winny for the last 5wks at say 50mgs/ed to shred down a bit bf coming off but be sure to still be running the deca throughout the winny so the winny wont be an issue with ur shoulder... good luck bro

**Juggernaut71** · 07-16-2005, 03:19 PM

I think I will add in some test then for sure as my wife wouldn't appreciate deca dick LOL. OK, so if I'm on 200mg/week of deca how much test should I do? You reccomended 400mg's - could I get away with less....say 100mg or 200mgs? I just hate any side effects and found that the lower doses obviously help me avoid them right. I guess I'm looking for some advice on the "ultimate low dose stack"!!!

I like the idea of adding in some winnie towards the end though

**hoopcat528** · 07-16-2005, 03:33 PM

I take deca for joint pain as well, my knees, old football injuries. It really helps, my joints "feel" probably about 50% better while on the deca. I'll take 200 mg per week. (I weigh 235)

I hear a lot of people talk about deca dick, but it has never happened to me fortunately. For that reason I don't have to stack it with test.

You might want to consider switching away from the winstrol and go over to anavar . When I take winstrol my joints get a lot worse. But this does not happen with anavar.

There was a post a while back that mentioned what steroids actually help joints. You might do a search on "collagen synthesis".

The roids that were good for joints were anavar, deca, eq (the best) and primobolan .

**Bigun** · 07-16-2005, 03:43 PM

What about Equipoise or hGH as alternatives? I use them both for my joint injuries?

**Juggernaut71** · 07-16-2005, 03:46 PM

So are you saying you just took 200mg/deca and nothing else? That is what I would prefer trying at first to see if it works for me. And I hear you on the winnie - I've been stewing over it and will pass on it after all.

I think I'll try the deca alone at 200mg's/week for a few weeks, see how I feel down stairs, and go from there. I was wondering what you took PCT after your deca cycle? I mean 200mgs alone isn't too heavy so what worked for you to kick things back in?

Thanks

**justin2305** · 07-16-2005, 05:35 PM

Originally Posted by Juggernaut71

I think I will add in some test then for sure as my wife wouldn't appreciate deca dick LOL. OK, so if I'm on 200mg/week of deca how much test should I do? You reccomended 400mg's - could I get away with less....say 100mg or 200mgs? I just hate any side effects and found that the lower doses obviously help me avoid them right. I guess I'm looking for some advice on the "ultimate low dose stack"!!!

I like the idea of adding in some winnie towards the end though

the reason i reccomended 400mgs is because it prety much 100% garrentee that u wont have any libido problems running the test 200mgs higher than deca... i would for sure atleast run the test 100mgs more than the deca though

**masshole24** · 07-16-2005, 05:48 PM

i totally agree with justin2305

**hoopcat528** · 07-17-2005, 11:19 PM

Originally Posted by Juggernaut71

So are you saying you just took 200mg/deca and nothing else? That is what I would prefer trying at first to see if it works for me. And I hear you on the winnie - I've been stewing over it and will pass on it after all.

I think I'll try the deca alone at 200mg's/week for a few weeks, see how I feel down stairs, and go from there. I was wondering what you took PCT after your deca cycle? I mean 200mgs alone isn't too heavy so what worked for you to kick things back in?

Thanks

I was taking the deca at 200 mg per week and anavar at 20 mg per day.

I do mostly low dose cycles, and "very" low dose compared to what I read about other people doing on this board. But my goals are very modest, just get a little "harder" and help heal the joint pain.

I did not do any PCT since the dose was low, but I am running 10 mg per day of nolva due to also using propecia.

**keylock** · 07-18-2005, 12:05 AM

Originally Posted by Juggernaut71

I think I will add in some test then for sure as my wife wouldn't appreciate deca dick LOL. OK, so if I'm on 200mg/week of deca how much test should I do? You reccomended 400mg's - could I get away with less....say 100mg or 200mgs? I just hate any side effects and found that the lower doses obviously help me avoid them right. I guess I'm looking for some advice on the "ultimate low dose stack"!!!

I like the idea of adding in some winnie towards the end though

If its joins pain you want to avoid I would not add any winnie!!!!

**robkesl** · 07-18-2005, 12:20 AM

A. try looking into getting some Alflutop, ive heard good things about it!

B. Does anyone know what the minimal amount of deca youd have to take to get joint relief?

**keylock** · 07-18-2005, 12:28 AM

Originally Posted by robkesl

A. try looking into getting some Alflutop, ive heard good things about it!

B. Does anyone know what the minimal amount of deca youd have to take to get joint relief?

When I went back to wrestling a cupel years ago the first week of practice was hell. I had been lifting heavie and was killing my joins after practice my joins hurt so bad I had to take 2 vicodin and about a gollon of tiger bolm to ease the pain. I needed to cut form 225lbs to209lbs so I didnt want to take a bunch of juce. any way to get to the point after only 200mg a week of Deca I felt GREAT!!!!!!!!!

**keylock** · 07-18-2005, 12:30 AM

All so I ran clomid thruw the middel and end and was cool as far as sex drive.

**Jsik98** · 07-18-2005, 01:45 AM

Originally Posted by Juggernaut71

I think I will add in some test then for sure as my wife wouldn't appreciate deca dick LOL. OK, so if I'm on 200mg/week of deca how much test should I do? You reccomended 400mg's - could I get away with less....say 100mg or 200mgs? I just hate any side effects and found that the lower doses obviously help me avoid them right. I guess I'm looking for some advice on the "ultimate low dose stack"!!!

I like the idea of adding in some winnie towards the end though

My advice to you would be to do 2 amps of 250mg sust and 1 amp of 300mgs deca (human grade) a week for 10 weeks. I'd also take letro or arimidex (or liquidex) during cycle to keep gains very dry and lean. Take the anti-e's in fairly low doses to allow a small amount of aromitization. This will allow for some water retention which is needed to help lubricate the joints. Two weeks after last shot practice a logical pct plan and you should be a happy man!

**phalanx** · 07-18-2005, 01:48 AM

run deca with the test keep it simple and lean out with winny if u see too much in gains

**Defconx3** · 07-18-2005, 01:54 AM

Originally Posted by Bigun

What about Equipoise or hGH as alternatives? I use them both for my joint injuries?

Theres an idea. They both promote extreme collegin and elastin production. It would be a good idea to stack test along with it as well, unless you are one of the individuals who get a libido boost off of only EQ.

**phalanx** · 07-18-2005, 01:55 AM

just be smart and safe and ull be good to go

**Juggernaut71** · 07-18-2005, 08:01 AM

Thanks for the help everyone. Just a question about mixing pain meds with gear. I'm on around 140mg/day - spread out into 5 doses - of oxycontin and take a xanax at night. I haven't heard of or read about any negative side effects of mixing these drugs with gear??? Actually, I'm positive that most professional strongmen/powerlifter/bodybuilders take way more pain meds than me. Anyhow, just covering all the bases.

Do you guys think I will get the joint relief effects on as little as 100mg/week of deca ? or is 200mgs the bottom line low dose? I probably sound paranoid LOL I will be starting my cylce this week

Thanks

**mark956101957** · 07-18-2005, 04:50 PM

Consider EQ- for me it takes all my joint pain away and leaves you lean.

**hoopcat528** · 07-18-2005, 06:09 PM

Originally Posted by Juggernaut71

Do you guys think I will get the joint relief effects on as little as 100mg/week of deca ? or is 200mgs the bottom line low dose? I probably sound paranoid LOL I will be starting my cylce this week

Thanks

I think the answer to that question probably depends on the amount of joint discomfort that you have. I do get pain relief from 100 mg per week of deca, but I prefer 200 mg per week. I think you said you wiegh 285, so in my in my opinion you will probably need the 200 mg per week. (I weigh 235)

I also take xanax, but only an average of once per week. Based on taking xanax only once per week, I sure have not seen any problem.

BG · 07-18-2005, 06:18 PM

200mg of deca maynot shut you down , pretty low dose, maybe grab some prop, if DD shows up wack some prop in ya.

**Moosepellet** · 07-18-2005, 07:23 PM

Run a test prop/deca cycle

**heavylifter99** · 07-18-2005, 08:27 PM

Deca has been really good to my joints/tendons. I dont feel any pain what so ever during workouts. The only problem is it stays with you for a while. Its great on the joints, and so is eq.

**tawweiliu** · 09-14-2005, 11:13 AM

What if you started the winny the 7 Th week of a 12 week with test 650 mg and your joints start to hurt bad can one or two shots of Deca help??
Or do you need to be on it for a long time??

**jmt** · 09-14-2005, 12:05 PM

100mg/week of Deca should be effecient enough to ease your joints. From the sound of it fellas, he just wants something to ease the pain and not to jump in on a full cycle.

Deca increases your body's own synovial fluid production. Synovial fluid is most commonly found in your joints and acts as a sort of "lubrication" to keep things moving right.

You should consult Pinnacle. I believe he runs 100mg of Deca per week for the same reason.

-jmt

**Property of Steroid.com** · 09-14-2005, 06:52 PM

Read my Deca Profile.

Then read this:

http://magazine.mindandmuscle.net/ma...=32&pageID=383

**jmt** · 09-14-2005, 07:30 PM

I've read that article a few times over, and I must say, I've found it to be wanting and conflicting with other information I've read. However, I don't know if it's the lack of detail or the way it's written that throws me off. I felt like maybe I misread some of the information and I have now read it 3 times.

I'm not out to prove anyone wrong here, so don't get the wrong idea guys. It's just that some of the content within, I feel, is irrelevant to the subject at hand. I also feel like some of the words were misused by definition and that some of the supporting evidence is incorrect.

**tawweiliu** · 09-14-2005, 08:51 PM

I just need to know if I can do it lol

**tawweiliu** · 09-14-2005, 09:22 PM

for get it!

**tawweiliu** · 09-14-2005, 09:30 PM

bump

**Property of Steroid.com** · 09-14-2005, 10:05 PM

Originally Posted by jmt

I've read that article a few times over, and I must say, I've found it to be wanting and conflicting with other information I've read. However, I don't know if it's the lack of detail or the way it's written that throws me off. I felt like maybe I misread some of the information and I have now read it 3 times.

I'm not out to prove anyone wrong here, so don't get the wrong idea guys. It's just that some of the content within, I feel, is irrelevant to the subject at hand. I also feel like some of the words were misused by definition and that some of the supporting evidence is incorrect.

None of the words in there are misused. I have a degree in English, and can't find any misused words...the editor of Mind and Muscle has a degree in English as well, and I would think he'd have corrected any such errors.

And it conflicts with other information you've read, clearly...as it is the first time the subject has ever been engaged properly, and at length. The only other (laughable) attempt I've ever seen is the "Animal Mass" thread that has 0 references.

Which supporting information is incorrect? There are 20 or so references for the article, and your critique of it is not only vague, it's without substance, or anything specific enough to understand what you are criticizing other than "some words" and "some supporting evidence"...

Also, as to being pertinent to the topic at hand, it explains how DHT/Estrogen, etc...effects joints. I think thats germane, as it's engages the underlying question asked in the first post...the information in that article gives the guy in the first post an idea of which steroids he can and can not use...while my deca profile gives him exact dosages that have been used successfully to increase bone mineral content and aid collagen synthesis.

What more information can be supplied?

Insofar as that article not being written to your liking, it's basically written in a similar fashion to tha other articles on that online magazine. They just aren't (sadly) written for the boards or board-dwellers at large...they are written above what most are going to like or understand....which is sad, because they are typically 2 years or so ahead of what goes on in the general forums on the boards.

**jmt** · 09-15-2005, 12:17 AM

The article is written and structured well. I just don't think there was a full understanding of some of the medical terms used. That's what I meant by "misused" worrds.

Water, in total, really doesn't exist in joints. The fluid there is called synovial fluid. And while I don't doubt that it's made up of mostly water, referring to it as "water" is incorrect.

Also, cytokines are just regulatory protein strands (lymphokines, interleukins, etc.) that act as the "middle man", so to speak, between the immune system and other parts of the body. Cytokines, themselves, have no direct anti-inflammaotry, etc. actions. While I won't dispute that a depletion of them might cause a sort of "confusion" in the body, the immune system can still operate.

As for conflicting information, recent studies are surfacing to present findings that estrogen and progesterone levels in the body are having little or no effect on bone density. I understand that the topic isn't discussed much, so such information may arise.

I can't get over the fact that a lot of the supporting evidence comes from estrogen levels and effects in females. The male and female body, with regards to hormones and hormone production, are very different. Sure regulatory devices and hormone creation are somewhat similar, but the comparison might as well be apples to oranges in my opinion.

I know everyone here, as well as I, thanks for you making supportive information available to them.

It's not the construction or the wording of the article that doesn't fit me well, it's the content that lies within. While I'm not claiming to be an expert, and we can all percieve things differently, I just felt that it wasn't as accurate as it should be. This was not a question of his writing ability.

I applaud his efforts, and yours, for trying to bring more scientific issues at hand to the general forum public. I enjoy reading them more than the usual "Well I know a guy..." type posts. So, in that light, thanks.

-jmt

**tawweiliu** · 09-15-2005, 12:45 AM

jmt

If I start the deca 2th week at 50mg for 11 weeks.
Will it help later on with the win??

**Property of Steroid.com** · 09-15-2005, 07:02 AM

Originally Posted by jmt

The article is written and structured well. I just don't think there was a full understanding of some of the medical terms used. That's what I meant by "misused" worrds.

Water, in total, really doesn't exist in joints. The fluid there is called synovial fluid. And while I don't doubt that it's made up of mostly water, referring to it as "water" is incorrect.

Also, cytokines are just regulatory protein strands (lymphokines, interleukins, etc.) that act as the "middle man", so to speak, between the immune system and other parts of the body. Cytokines, themselves, have no direct anti-inflammaotry, etc. actions. While I won't dispute that a depletion of them might cause a sort of "confusion" in the body, the immune system can still operate.

As for conflicting information, recent studies are surfacing to present findings that estrogen and progesterone levels in the body are having little or no effect on bone density. I understand that the topic isn't discussed much, so such information may arise.

I can't get over the fact that a lot of the supporting evidence comes from estrogen levels and effects in females. The male and female body, with regards to hormones and hormone production, are very different. Sure regulatory devices and hormone creation are somewhat similar, but the comparison might as well be apples to oranges in my opinion.

I know everyone here, as well as I, thanks for you making supportive information available to them.

It's not the construction or the wording of the article that doesn't fit me well, it's the content that lies within. While I'm not claiming to be an expert, and we can all percieve things differently, I just felt that it wasn't as accurate as it should be. This was not a question of his writing ability.

I applaud his efforts, and yours, for trying to bring more scientific issues at hand to the general forum public. I enjoy reading them more than the usual "Well I know a guy..." type posts. So, in that light, thanks.

-jmt

There are over 100 pages on medline, with 20 studies each, about Estrogen and Collagen or Estrogen and Bone Mineral Content. The same goes for progesterone. Most agree that estrogen (and progesterone) increases and/or is a major mediating or mitigating factor in keeping both healthy. As for supporting evidence coming from relation to females and estrogen/bones/joints/collagen...yes, some does, and some doesn't...

If you read studies on estrogen suppression in males, you will note the lowering of bone mineral and collagen content in most of them (specifically, I'd tell you to look at Letrozole , or to a lesser extent, possibly Arimidex ...though Exemestane seems to not have this property). I feel the male/female difference to exist, but not in such a way as to damage the validity of the claims in the article. Again, the preponderance of evidence exists to show estrogen to be a major factor in joint health, bone/collagen production, etc...in men. Recent studies being whatever they are, the preponderence of evidence and current medical paradigm holds estrogen/progesterone to be as important as the article states they are.

As for the use of "water" to imply "synovial fluid"...If you re-read the article, you'll see that "water" is always used to mean subcutaneous water, while it is NEVER used to refer to anything in the joints.

Quoting from the article:

It is true that you one loses subcutaneous water when estrogen levels are low, but it's simply not true that losing this water will make your joints hurt.

In fact, the article argues against "water" in the joints, or any such notion.

You'll note that the two effects (water under the skin vs/ joint issues) are differentiated between quite clearly, by the phrase "as well as" while a causative effect would have been implied by using a phrase like "and this causes"...

one both loses water (because estrogen causes water retention) as well as experiences sore joints due to the pro-inflammatory effects generated from low estrogen levels

"Water" is never used in that article, in the way you claim..it is uesd in the opposite way. I think the problem lies (if I may say) in your reading comprehension, and possibly because the article contains alot of unnecessarily complex sentence structure.

As for those particular Cytokines being pro-inflamatory, they create a pro-inflamatory environment, as noted in this journal:

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/conten...=JsdA5F3s0DHFo

I suppose you could argue that they do it by influencing other factore, but that would be like shooting somebody and then saying "I didn't kill him, the bullets did."

I think you ought re-read the article...there are several things you claim are not worded properly (like the thing about water)...when they aren't actually even saying what you are interpreting them as saying. Again, this is probably a problem with the article, and using needlessly complex sentence structure.

**Property of Steroid.com** · 09-15-2005, 07:24 AM

Originally Posted by jmt

The article is written and structured well. I just don't think there was a full understanding of some of the medical terms used. That's what I meant by "misused" worrds.

Also, cytokines are just regulatory protein strands (lymphokines, interleukins, etc.) that act as the "middle man", so to speak, between the immune system and other parts of the body. Cytokines, themselves, have no direct anti-inflammaotry, etc. actions.

-jmt

Really? Are you sure?

Int J Immunopharmacol. 1995 Nov;17(11):857-63.Related Articles, Links

Modulation of immune responses by anabolic androgenic steroids.

Hughes TK, Fulep E, Juelich T, Smith EM, Stanton GJ.

Department of Microbiology, University of Texas Medical Branch, Galveston 77555-1019, USA.

Anabolic androgenic steroids (AS) have recently been placed on the Food and Drug Administration's (FDA's) list of controlled substances, because of the adverse effects seen in athletes taking accelerated dosages in attempts to enhance performance. Reported deleterious effects on abusers include sterility, gynecomastia in males, acne, balding, psychological changes, and increased risks of heart disease and liver neoplasia. Considering the roles of the immune and neuroendocrine systems and their interactions in many of these pathologies, it is important to determine the effects of these derivitized androgens on this connection. Little is known in this respect. We therefore determined the effects of anabolic steroids on certain immune responses and their effects on the extrapituitary production of corticotropin by lymphocytes. We present evidence that (1) both 17-beta and 17-alpha esterified AS, nandrolone decanoate and oxymethenelone, respectively, significantly inhibited production of antibody to sheep red blood cells in a murine abuse model; (2) the control androgens testosterone and dehydroepian-drosterone (DHEA) or sesame seed oil vehicle had no significant effects on antibody production; (3) nandrolone decanoate and oxymethenelone directly induced the production of the inflammatory cytokines IL-1 beta and TNF-alpha from human peripheral blood lymphocytes but had no effect on IL-2 or IL-10 production; (4) control androgens had no direct cytokine inducing effect; (5) nandrolone decanoate significantly inhibited IFN production in human WISH and murine L-929 cells; and (6) nandrolone decanoate significantly inhibited the production of corticotropin in human peripheral blood lymphocytes following viral infection. These data indicate that high doses of anabolic steroids can have significant effects on immune responses and extrapituitary production of corticotropin. Furthermore, the mouse model should provide an effective means by which to study other deleterious effects of anabolic steroid abuse in humans.