Is this enough ancillaries?

[catlovesfood]

Im about to start my 3rd cycle, 20mg/ed dbol for 4 weeks, 500mg/week Test enthenate for 12 weeks, and 400mg/week deca for 10 weeks,

I have 6 bottles of liquid nolvadex , 5 bottles of liqiud femera and 5 bottles of clen and plan to use HCG weeks 10,11,12 at 3000 IU Week.

Am I missing anything? Im trying to make this my best cycle yet.

[mranak]

plan to use HCG weeks 10,11,12 at 3000 IU Week.

I strongly suggest that you use smaller doses of hCG throughout the entire cycle. That's the more modern way of doing it because it works better. Keep the boys working the whole time and you never have to worry about bringing them back.

300 IU twice/week will do it. Start with the beginning of the cycle and stop just a few days prior to PCT.

[Nickster#1]

I strongly suggest that you use smaller doses of hCG throughout the entire cycle. That's the more modern way of doing it because it works better. Keep the boys working the whole time and you never have to worry about bringing them back.

300 IU twice/week will do it. Start with the beginning of the cycle and stop just a few days prior to PCT.

HCG is not even neccessary in a cycle that is ran less than 16 weeks. Read the profile.......

[956Vette]

HCG is not even neccessary in a cycle that is ran less than 16 weeks. Read the profile.......

at the same time, there is nothing wrong with the inclusion of hcg . Actually, it may be wise as deca can be hard on some people....

[Property of Steroid.com]

I strongly suggest that you use smaller doses of hCG throughout the entire cycle. That's the more modern way of doing it because it works better.

I don't think that way is better...I prefer using it after the cycle along with Nolvadex .

[mranak]

HCG is not even neccessary in a cycle that is ran less than 16 weeks. Read the profile.......

I know a hell of a lot more about hCG than whatever is in the fucking profile.

Necessary? No. Good? Yes.

[mranak]

I don't think that way is better...I prefer using it after the cycle along with Nolvadex.

Well, you can run it however you want. But an increasing number of guys are changing from the old school method (after the cycle, before PCT) to the new method (throughout).

I like to at least warn guys to never use more than 1,000 IU/day and preferably not more than 500 IU/day as higher dosages are unnecessary and can desensitize the leydig cells. Better to do 500 IU/day for seven days than 1,500 IU all at once.

[Drummerboy]

Use the HCG at the end. Period. And your timing is off. The 2 week HCG cycle should end as your LONGEST ester is running out of your body. Week 14, 15 at 1000iu EOD, with 20mg nolva ED. stop the hcg, run the nolva for about a month longer.

[Drummerboy]

I know a hell of a lot more about hCG than whatever is in the fucking profile.

Necessary? No. Good? Yes.

What do you know about HCG? Are you a doctor? Are you in any proffession that deals with these drugs? Educated somehow? Dont just trumpet yourself without backup....

[Property of Steroid.com]

Well, you can run it however you want. But an increasing number of guys are changing from the old school method (after the cycle, before PCT) to the new method (throughout).

I like to at least warn guys to never use more than 1,000 IU/day and preferably not more than 500 IU/day as higher dosages are unnecessary and can desensitize the leydig cells. Better to do 500 IU/day for seven days than 1,500 IU all at once.

My way is the new school, not the old school...the new(est) way people are using it is during pct, and with Nolvadex , which prevents inhibition of natural test caused (by leydig cell desensitization) via HCG .

[305GUY]

All these conflicting ways of using HCG drives me crazyyyyyyyyyyyy!

[Drummerboy]

All these conflicting ways of using HCG drives me crazyyyyyyyyyyyy!

listen to Hooker, i do this way now, and it works best.

[catlovesfood]

All these comments, and nobody answered the question!

[SAGAD_01]

god, and i thought i was ready to go...

now am confused...

[USN DV]

I'm assuming you are going to run nolva and ferma during cycle and nolva and HCG for PCT and clen after cycle? What are your goals for this cycle?

[mranak]

My way is the new school, not the old school...the new(est) way people are using it is during pct, and with Nolvadex, which prevents inhibition of natural test caused (by leydig cell desensitization) via HCG.

Now that is a REALLY STUPID way to run hCG . hCG here will suppress the HP part of the HPTA at the very time you are trying to recover it. You obviously have little understanding of hCG and its interactions with the endocrine system; that is made particularily clear at the end of your last sentence.

I know a hell of a lot more on this subject than you do and you need to stop giving bad advice to others.

I'll even provide a reference from a REAL physician that understands AAS, Dr. John Crisler:

http://steroidology.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22584

[Property of Steroid.com]

Now that is a REALLY STUPID way to run hCG . hCG here will suppress the HP part of the HPTA at the very time you are trying to recover it. You obviously have little understanding of hCG and its interactions with the endocrine system; that is made particularily clear at the end of your last sentence.

I know a hell of a lot more on this subject than you do and you need to stop giving bad advice to others.

I'll even provide a reference from a REAL physician that understands AAS, Dr. John Crisler:

http://steroidology.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22584

Sorry for giving out bad advice....you know a hell of a lot more about this subject than me. I don't really go to 'ology much because I get my porn elsewhere, and if I wanted to read steroid profiles, I'd go to a board where someone on staff actually wrote them, not a board where they took the top half of L.Rea's profiles, and then added the body of Llewellyn's ones. I'm just not into that kinda thing...so I'm ignorant on what goes on at Ology nowadays...Although, it should be noted that at least a couple of their mods (alot, really) read my work (profiles, articles, etc...) because in several cases where I was the first person on the internet to point something out (using 1/2 a mg of Arimidex is the same as using a whole mg, you can use Benadryl to upgrade Beta receptors, etc....) I've seen that advice repeated by a couple of 'Ology mods who are members or staff here. Anyway, I'm getting a bit off topic...

SO can you explain why using HCG along with Nolvadex (I also reccomend some Vitamin E, plus a type-II Aromatase Inhibitor, incidentally, for PCT) for PCT is bad and how it would lead to suppression of your endogenous hormones, in light of the following studies? It would seem that HCG's suppressive effect on endogenous testosterone is (mostly? totally?) due to to HCG actually blocking the conversion of 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone (17 OHP) into to testosterone it would also seem that Nolvadex stops this blocking-action of HCG from taking place. Thus when you run both of them together, the HCG is not suppressing anything. Can you tell me why my advice is so bad in light of this evidence of HCG's non-hormonal suppression when used with Nolv?

Andrologia 1991 Mar-Apr;23(2):109-14

Effect of an antiestrogen on the testicular response to acute and chronic administration of hCG in normal and hypogonadotropic hypogonadic men: tamoxifen and testicular response to hCG.

The effect of the antiestrogen tamoxifen (Tx) on the acute and chronic hCG administration was evaluated in patients with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism (HH) and in normal men. An hCG test (5000 IU hCG) was performed before, after two months of hCG administration (2000 IU hCG three times weekly) and after two months of hCG + Tx (2000 IU hCG three times weekly plus 20 mg/day of tamoxifen). Blood samples were obtained before and following 24 and 72 h of every test to determine T, E, 17OHP and SHBG. T increased only in HH with both treatments (X +/- SEM: Basal: 97.9 +/- 19.7; hCG: 237.7 +/- 43.2; hCG +/- Tx: 204.7 +/- 10.7 ng/100 ml). 17OHP rose with hCG alone, but not with hCG + Tx in both groups. E, SHBG and 17OHP/T ratio did not change after treatments. hCG tests: E increased 24 h following hCG administration in every test. The ratio 17OHP/T rose at 24 h in the first and second test but in the third test it did not change. These results support the role of E in the acute hCG-induced Leydig cell desensitization. However, the association of Tx does not improve T serum levels, suggesting that E might not be the unique factor involved in the mechanisms for testicular desensitization.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...2114&query_hl=2




J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1980 Nov;51(5):1026-9

Tamoxifen suppresses gonadotropin-induced 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone accumulation in normal men.

Intramuscular administration of 1500 IU hCG daily for 3 days induced a transient accumulation of 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone (17 OHP) relative to testosterone (T) in normal men, reaching its maximum 24 h after the first injection (17 OHP to T ratio, 1.7 +/- 0.3 times baseline; P < 0.01). Simultaneous administration of hCG and the estrogen antagonist tamoxifen (20 mg twice daily) almost completely abolished the hCG-induced steroidogenic block localized between 17 OHP and T (17 OHP to T ratio at 24 h, 1.1 +/- 0.1 times baseline; P < 0.01 vs. hCG alone). These data indirectly suggest that, in man, the hCG-induced steroidogenic lesion might be mediated through its estrogen-stimulating effect.

[mranak]

These studies do not show anything about stimulation of the HPTA. Will the bodies testosterone producing be boosted by the use of hCG ? Oh course. But that stimulation is artificial. The objective of PCT is to get the ENTITE HPTA running again, not just the leydig cells. Notice in the first study that administration of tamoxifen does not increase testosterone production. This is because the leydig cells are being stimulated by the hCG and NOT the pituitaries output of LH.

[mranak]

Sorry for giving out bad advice....you know a hell of a lot more about this subject than me. I don't really go to 'ology much because I get my porn elsewhere, and if I wanted to read steroid profiles, I'd go to a board where someone on staff actually wrote them, not a board where they took the top half of L.Rea's profiles, and then added the body of Llewellyn's ones. I'm just not into that kinda thing...so I'm ignorant on what goes on at Ology nowadays...Although, it should be noted that at least a couple of their mods (alot, really) read my work (profiles, articles, etc...) because in several cases where I was the first person on the internet to point something out (using 1/2 a mg of Arimidex is the same as using a whole mg, you can use Benadryl to upgrade Beta receptors, etc....) I've seen that advice repeated by a couple of 'Ology mods who are members or staff here. Anyway, I'm getting a bit off topic...

I see that you are putting others down and promoting yourself. I gave you a link to a posting from a real and good physician and in response, you attack steroidology, at which, by the way, I don't believe you will find a porn forum. And nothing in this entire section has anything to do with the issue at hand.

[Property of Steroid.com]

These studies do not show anything about stimulation of the HPTA. Will the bodies testosterone producing be boosted by the use of hCG ? Oh course. But that stimulation is artificial. The objective of PCT is to get the ENTITE HPTA running again, not just the leydig cells. Notice in the first study that administration of tamoxifen does not increase testosterone production. This is because the leydig cells are being stimulated by the hCG and NOT the pituitaries output of LH.

Yes it does. It clearly does, in fact, say that tamoxifen increases testosterone levels . Are you sure you're reading them correctly? I don't think you really understand the issues at hand. Do you know what the enzymes and process at hand are, and why the study I presented is important in refuting your claims. It would appear that you are not only reading the study incorrectly, but that you aren't even familiar with the processes being discussed.

I see that you are putting others down and promoting yourself.

No. But you think that Steroidology is a good board, and I'm telling you that the staff there (at least some of them) read and repeat my work, not the other way around. If that's a good board, and sometimes staff reads and repeats me....wouldn't that mean I'm decent too? I mean...if you think a staff or board is good...and some of their advice originally came from me... doesn't that mean I probably know a little something too?

[mranak]

You know what, maybe you are a reasonable and decent guy.

Let me ask this; why don't you like usage of hCG during the cycle? Having to bring those leydig cells back online, and then having to fight the E increase at the same time and all, I just don't get it.

[Property of Steroid.com]

Using HCG during a cycle is fine....I just prefer to reccomend it for PCT, with nolv and vitamin E, plus a type-II AI. Given the choice of one or the other, I use it after. Given the choice of both, I'd do both, I guess, but I'd keep it to 250iu once a week or so during a cycle. I'm not as impressed with it during a cycle, as I am after it, when the balls come back (and stay) more rapidly (b/c of the vit E addition) and there is no suppression and of HPTA (because the Nolv Stops it, as well as helping cholesterol) a decent inhibition of Estrogen (by the type-II AI). It's a quick and super effective PCT, as opposed to trying to keep some very miniscule levels of the HPTA scraping along. Given the choice, I'd just go all out on PCT, and get totally functioning ASAP, rather than trying to start PCT with some tiny amount less of inhibition, saying "well my Leydigs Cells are kind of, maybe, perhaps not totally gone..." I think total recovery will be faster with my way, rather than tiny amounts of HCG during a cycle. Maybe both would work (marginally better together), but I'd keep the during-cycle HCG very low, prefering to run it when it's exerting all of its positive effects with the Nolv.

[Dally]

sorry to butt in fellas.

Hooker, considering that you would prefer to go all out on pct I was just hoping for a general spread or layout of your recommendation regardless of halflife or esters used for comparison including dosage.

If you don't mind.


for eg. how much vitamin e? how much type 2 ai and what type preferrably?

[longhorn814]

sorry to butt in fellas.

Hooker, considering that you would prefer to go all out on pct I was just hoping for a general spread or layout of your recommendation regardless of halflife or esters used for comparison including dosage.

If you don't mind.


for eg. how much vitamin e? how much type 2 ai and what type preferrably?

bump, I would also like to see that Hooker!

[Property of Steroid.com]

Sorry...I'm not going to do some kind of "hooker's PCT" thread... with all of my reccomendations, doses, and reasoning for them.....any time soon....my apologies. I reallly can't do it right now...

I get this question all the time:

http://www.bodybuilding4life.com/for...ead.php?t=8344

And I've written an entire chapter on it in my book, but I can't really just work something up for the boards in less than a few days of non-stop work...which I can't do right now...

I am very behind in several (paid) projects for no less than 3 boards (Avant Labs, T-Nation, and another 2), because I spent the last week in Maryland with the owner of this board (Brian aka System_Admin)...sorry....

[956Vette]

I am very behind in several (paid) projects for no less than 3 boards (Avant Labs, T-Nation, and another 2), because I spent the last week in Maryland with the owner of this board (Brian aka System_Admin)...sorry....

Keep up the solid work buddy!

So, could texas brian hang with your jerzey crowd or what?

[Property of Steroid.com]

Keep up the solid work buddy!

So, could texas brian hang with your jerzey crowd or what?

He looked like a trauma victim the last night he spent in New Jersey...something like a cross between a dude they pulled out of a train wreck and a guy suffering from post-traumatic-stress disorder....

[Drummerboy]

Using HCG during a cycle is fine....I just prefer to reccomend it for PCT, with nolv and vitamin E, plus a type-II AI. Given the choice of one or the other, I use it after. Given the choice of both, I'd do both, I guess, but I'd keep it to 250iu once a week or so during a cycle. I'm not as impressed with it during a cycle, as I am after it, when the balls come back (and stay) more rapidly (b/c of the vit E addition) and there is no suppression and of HPTA (because the Nolv Stops it, as well as helping cholesterol) a decent inhibition of Estrogen (by the type-II AI). It's a quick and super effective PCT, as opposed to trying to keep some very miniscule levels of the HPTA scraping along. Given the choice, I'd just go all out on PCT, and get totally functioning ASAP, rather than trying to start PCT with some tiny amount less of inhibition, saying "well my Leydigs Cells are kind of, maybe, perhaps not totally gone..." I think total recovery will be faster with my way, rather than tiny amounts of HCG during a cycle. Maybe both would work (marginally better together), but I'd keep the during-cycle HCG very low, prefering to run it when it's exerting all of its positive effects with the Nolv.

PS im doing this now(with arimdex though)... so far so good...

[Property of Steroid.com]

OOPs...I meant a Type-I Aromatase Inhibitor ....my bad...typo...

[mranak]

OOPs...I meant a Type-I Aromatase Inhibitor ....my bad...typo...

What effective difference does it make if it is irreversible or not?

[Property of Steroid.com]

Well...if nolvadex reduces the effectiveness of A type-II AI because they are competitive inhibitors (their effects can be reversed if they aren't present in the blood to do their job) then it stands to reason that a non-reversible inhibitor, or type-I, would be more effective along with nolvadex since it isn't reversible, it doesn't need to be present in the blood after it's had it's effect. Type-II's are the only type that are synergistic with Nolvadex. Type-I's are inhibited by Nolvadex.

[Dally]

alright... understood.


how bout just the dose and time frame of start and end of vitamin e...never read that as a pct supplement before.

thanks and take care

[Property of Steroid.com]

1,000iu/day for the whole PCT

[Two4the$$]

Well - hope he gets paid for this or the book comes out soon ... as in, before my PCT.

Bump

[Property of Steroid.com]

I will be getting paid for the book, and it will be coming out soon. It's finished...it just needs to be printed.

[mr.question]

I will be getting paid for the book, and it will be coming out soon. It's finished...it just needs to be printed.

What will the name be so I can look for it?

[Dally]

Thanks Hooker and good luck with your book

[highnmighty]

What will the name be so I can look for it?

I would like to know this as well???

[Property of Steroid.com]

What will the name be so I can look for it?

Look to the left of my name, and above this post...

[mr.question]

Look to the left of my name, and above this post...

duh!!!!!!!!!!!!!! SORRY