Hcg

[FLOo]

im getting close to ending my cycle of..
1-4 35mg dbol ed
1-14 400mg EQ EW
1-15 500mg TEST E EW

Would i HAVE to have hcg for the end of this cycle... or would it be negative for the cycle if i didnt use it?

[JohnnyB]

You should of run it during the cycle, you can do 10 days at 300iu. Start now then do 500iu every 3 days until you finish your cycle. If you finish your cycle before the 10 day are over, just do the 10 days. This will help, but it's not as effective as doing it from day 1 at 300-500iu every 3-5 day during the cycle. Using it higher doses can cause eleveated estrogen so do go over that amount.

JohnnyB

[FLOo]

cool, thanks johnny. i got about 5 more weeks left soo i guess i will start now.

[Property of Steroid.com]

You should of run it during the cycle, you can do 10 days at 300iu. Start now then do 500iu every 3 days until you finish your cycle. If you finish your cycle before the 10 day are over, just do the 10 days. This will help, but it's not as effective as doing it from day 1 at 300-500iu every 3-5 day during the cycle. Using it higher doses can cause eleveated estrogen so do go over that amount.

JohnnyB

That's nonsensical. Using it at that amount, not just more than it, will also cause (significantly) elevated estrogen:

Endocrinology. 1980 Nov;107(5):1620-6.Related Articles, Links

Depletion of the cytoplasmic estrogen receptor in gonadotropin-desensitized testes.

Melner MH, Abney TO.

Recent studies have shown that hCG stimulates 17 beta-estradiol production in the testis, and a possible role for 17 beta-estradiol in hCG-induced desensitization of testosterone synthesis has been suggested. These studies were initiated to examine the testicular content of cytoplasmic estrogen receptor in relation to hCG-induced desensitization of testosterone production 24 h and 5 days after a sc injection of hCG. Twenty-four hours after the injection of 30, 300, and 3000 IU hCG, pronounced (82-88%) depletion of the cytoplasmic estrogen receptor was observed, while a 3-IU dose elicited a 41% depletion. A concomitant desensitization to hCG stimulation in vitro was observed after the injection of 30, 300, and 3000 IU hCG, as reflected by a lack of stimulation of testosterone production above that in matched controls. Testicular 17 beta-estradiol levels rose significantly after the injection of 300 or 3000 IU hCG. Five days after the injection of hCG, full replenishment of the cytoplasmic estrogen receptor had occurred in the 3- and 30-IU dose groups, while partial replenishment (22-56% depletion) had occurred with the 300- and 3000-IU dose groups. Only the 3000-IU dose group remained desensitized to hCG stimulation in vitro at this time point. Results indicated that occupancy by endogenous 17 beta-estradiol was not a factor, thus suggesting a true receptor depletion phenomenon. These results demonstrate that hCG-induced desensitization of testicular steroidogenesis is accompanied by depletion of the cytoplasmic estrogen receptor. Further, replenishment of the estrogen receptor at 5 days was accompanied by a return of the testicular response to hCG.

[FLOo]

soo this means doing it the way johnny said is still ok uh?

[Property of Steroid.com]

Maybe...he apparently hasn't done the research to support his case that "Using it higher doses can cause eleveated estrogen so do go over that amount."
than but It means he's wrong about his reasons for using HCG the way he said, in this case. It's like me telling you that the world is round, because my dog said it is. The world may still be round, but certainly, my reasons for saying it is are absurdly stupid. Using it at higher doses can cause elevated estrogen.....BUT SO CAN USING IT AT THAT DOSE. Ergo, his argument is just as wrong as if he said "Jump in the Atlantic Ocean for 5 seconds, but not ten, because if you jump in for ten, you'll get wet"

There's no reason to trust someone who has such fallacious reasons and provides false information. His reasons are incorrect and hence do not provide support for his advice, so I see no reason to take it.

[JohnnyB]

Posted by hhajdo at S’ology

Differential effect of single high dose and divided small dose administration of human chorionic gonadotropin on Leydig cell steroidogenic desensitization.

Smals AG, Pieters GF, Boers GH, Raemakers JM, Hermus AR, Benraad TJ, Kloppenborg PW.

This study compared the effect of a single high dose of hCG (1500 IU) with that of the same dose administered in multiple small doses (300 IU, once daily for 5 days) on Leydig cell steroidogenesis. Administration of a single high dose of hCG to seven healthy men raised the mean plasma testosterone (T) level to peak levels 2.1 +/- 0.2 (SEM) X the baseline value at 48 h. Thereafter plasma T decreased to below normal (0.7 +/- 0.1 X baseline) 7 days after the injection. The mean 17-hydroxyprogesterone (17-OHP) level peaked at 24 h (2.5 +/- 0.2 X baseline) and then also fell to a nadir value of 0.6 +/- 0.2 X baseline on day 7. Reflecting the early accumulation of 17-OHP over T, the 17 OHP/T ratio reached its maximum (1.6 +/- 0.1 X baseline) at 24 h at the same time when plasma estradiol [(E2) 4.4 +/- 0.6 X baseline] and the ratio E2/T (2.7 +/- 0.3 X baseline) achieved their maximal values. Administration of 1500 IU hCG in five divided doses of 300 IU daily increased the mean plasma T levels to peak value of 2.1 +/- 0.2 X baseline at 5 days and the levels remained elevated thereafter. The response of T as reflected by the area under the curve was almost twice as great as in the single dose study (2844 +/- 360 vs. 1647 +/- 214). In contrast to the single high dose experiment, mean plasma 17-OHP levels in the divided dose protocol did not peak at 24 h but only gradually increased. As the increase of T exceeded the 17-OHP increase at almost all time intervals, no accumulation of 17-OHP over T occurred as in the single dose experiment. Instead the 17-OHP/T ratio fell to a nadir value of 0.6 +/- 0.1 X baseline on day 7. The initial E2 peak was absent in the divided dose protocol and the E2/T ratio only marginally increased. Considering both experiments together a close relation was found between the hCG-induced increases in E2 and 17-OHP (r = +0.88, P less than 0.001), as well as the ratio 17 OHP/T (r = +0.64, P less than 0.02).

JohnnyB

[shortie]

Thanks JohhnyB-

[JohnnyB]

Here's some more that will help, I know desencitization wasn't brought up here, but it should be noted.

Posted by Nandi12 on cuttingedgemuscle


Tamoxifen Blocks HCG Induced Leydig Cell Desensitization
HCG induced testicular desensitization seems to be a hot topic. There are a number of studies showing that concomitant use of Nolvadex ameliorates this. The first abstract suggests that HCG at least partially blocks the conversion of 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone (17 OHP), a testosterone precursor, to testosterone. This effect is suppressed by Nolvadex.

The second abstract seems to indicate that estrogen may not be the only culprit, since Nolvadex plus HCG does not increase T levels any more than HCG alone, even though the combination reduces desensitization.

Since we are trying to avoid this desensitization so when we quit the HCG our testes respond to our endogenous LH, it makes sense to always use nolvadex with HCG to at least help the problem, if not solve it completely.


J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1980 Nov;51(5):1026-9

Tamoxifen suppresses gonadotropin-induced 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone accumulation in normal men.

Smals AG, Pieters GF, Drayer JI, Boers GH, Benraad TJ, Kloppenborg PW.

Intramuscular administration of 1500 IU hCG daily for 3 days induced a transient accumulation of 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone (17 OHP) relative to testosterone (T) in normal men, reaching its maximum 24 h after the first injection (17 OHP to T ratio, 1.7 +/- 0.3 times baseline; P < 0.01). Simultaneous administration of hCG and the estrogen antagonist tamoxifen (20 mg twice daily) almost completely abolished the hCG-induced steroidogenic block localized between 17 OHP and T (17 OHP to T ratio at 24 h, 1.1 +/- 0.1 times baseline; P < 0.01 vs. hCG alone). These data indirectly suggest that, in man, the hCG-induced steroidogenic lesion might be mediated through its estrogen-stimulating effect.



Andrologia 1991 Mar-Apr;23(2):109-14

Effect of an antiestrogen on the testicular response to acute and chronic administration of hCG in normal and hypogonadotropic hypogonadic men: tamoxifen and testicular response to hCG.

Levalle OA, Suescun MO, Fiszlejder L, Aszpis S, Charreau E, Guitelman A, Calandra R.

Division Endocrinologia, Hospital Carlos Durand, Instituto de Biologia y Medicina Experimental, Buenos Aires, Argentina.

The effect of the antiestrogen tamoxifen (Tx) on the acute and chronic hCG administration was evaluated in patients with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism (HH) and in normal men. An hCG test (5000 IU hCG) was performed before, after two months of hCG administration (2000 IU hCG three times weekly) and after two months of hCG + Tx (2000 IU hCG three times weekly plus 20 mg/day of tamoxifen). Blood samples were obtained before and following 24 and 72 h of every test to determine T, E, 17OHP and SHBG. T increased only in HH with both treatments (X +/- SEM: Basal: 97.9 +/- 19.7; hCG: 237.7 +/- 43.2; hCG +/- Tx: 204.7 +/- 10.7 ng/100 ml). 17OHP rose with hCG alone, but not with hCG + Tx in both groups. E, SHBG and 17OHP/T ratio did not change after treatments. hCG tests: E increased 24 h following hCG administration in every test. The ratio 17OHP/T rose at 24 h in the first and second test but in the third test it did not change. These results support the role of E in the acute hCG-induced Leydig cell desensitization. However, the association of Tx does not improve T serum levels, suggesting that E might not be the unique factor involved in the mechanisms for testicular desensitization.
__________________________________________________ _

JohnnyB

[Property of Steroid.com]

Note: The study posted by JohnnyB does not support his first post at all. Doses of 300iu, in the study he presented still cause an increase in estrogen, in the study he posted...ergo his contention that relative to a 300iu dose that "Using it higher doses can cause eleveated estrogen so do go over that amount."

Is still incorrect. 300iu ELEVATES estrogen, period. The same peak was absent, as was the same type of E:T ratio increase, but to say that elevated estrogen doesn't occur unless you go over 300iu is actually refuted by both studies presented in this thread.

Why would one, knowing how the English language works, say using HCG at a dose of "X+1" will cause a particular effect to happen....then suggest that it ought to be used at dose "X," when X causes the same thing (in this case, elevated estrogen).

As an example of the same statement, I could say "don't rub sandpaper on your CD's for longer than 10 seconds, becase it will damage them" Which seems to imply that rubbing sandpaper on your CD's for less time wouldn't damage them, doesn't it? Don't use more than 300iu of HCG because it will cause elevated estrogen is exactly the same idea.

[The OutLord]

Hmmmm..!

Hcg or Pregnyl in the body system have "2 kick`s in"
On one injektion.
The first one come after 2 / 3 hours!!
And the other one come around after 4 / 5 days ..!

There is NOT good to run it more then 1 inject a week..!

The is no need to get 3 or 4 kick in..!!!
That is to take a bigger risk to get a ball crach...!!!
Whats happen is that , it get to intensive with more than 2 kick in.

(2 kick in) every week Please..!!
If you are not happy with the dos get a bigger dos every monday or another day .
The kick`s in need the ( Day / space ) between every kick in..!
Hcg or pregnyl Cycle is 7 day..!!!

1 - steroid with this dos - 15 week

( Hcg or pregnyl ) 1000Iu week 15 / 16 / 17.
and run nollvadex to week 18.
and if you are going to a contest ..!
( Testo face / gain water on Hcg or Pregnyl )


Tank.

[JohnnyB]

Bros you have the studies you make up your own minds, I have no vested interest in proving my point. I give you the info and you can make up your own minds. I'm not selling anything, just trying to help, I'm not the final athuroity on any subject and neither is anyone else, we are all still learning

JohnnyB

[BG]

Whats the best way to inject, slin pin in stomach with skin pinched???And when I add water, swirl not shaken correct??

[jef]

I read to take 5000iu's 3 times over a 10 day period for every fourth week of a cycle...is this false then?

I've also ready 2 weeks before teh end of a cycle : hcg @1500ius 3 times a week
1 week before end of cycle: hcq @ 1500 ius 3 tims a week
First week post cycle @ 1500ius 2 times a week

Is a HCG even necessary with a 12 week cycle with test c, deca , dbal and/or EQ?

[BG]

Whats the best way to inject, slin pin in stomach with skin pinched???And when I add water, swirl not shaken correct??

Any body???

[BG]

Any body???

HUH?

[The OutLord]

Bros you have the studies you make up your own minds, I have no vested interest in proving my point. I give you the info and you can make up your own minds. I'm not selling anything, just trying to help, I'm not the final athuroity on any subject and neither is anyone else, we are all still learning

JohnnyB

I agree me to : I'm not selling anything, just trying to help, I'm not the final athuroity on any subject and neither is anyone else, we are all still learning.


I have read meany diffrent of way to rehab on Hcg / Pregnyl
and i dont say that this is ronge , but in my way of lucking / studies I have read that it`s heavy with more then ( 2 kick in ) .

The thing is , much of the info out there is studies on people with the a decies or Dna illnes with low or no sperm produc at all Etc!!!.
and that mean that we are not that kind of decies or Dna illnes to start up a decies or Dna illnes body.

We are just going to start up something that are allready nomal on use .
There is just something low , and fore that , it`s not necessery to give the body a very power full 3 or 4 or more ( kick in on a week ) .

Thanks kl 03:45 Now good night!!! To morro Boys and girls.

[shortie]

Whats the best way to inject, slin pin in stomach with skin pinched???And when I add water, swirl not shaken correct??

swirl, yes. slin or other pin, slin is just easiest to measure such small units. can be sub q or im, either works.

[The OutLord]

Inject it with the steroids .
mix , is no problem.

[Property of Steroid.com]

If you don't want to listen to me, I have the deciding piece of evidence:

Bro.

See? I said "bro"...now will you listen to me?

[alo5603]

so hooker, what r your thoughts then on takin hcg ? should it be taken during a cycle or end? and at what dose?

alo

[Property of Steroid.com]

Both, I think. Nowhere as near frequently as 300-500iu/e3d or 34d though...maybe 300iu-500iu/week. And certainly not that dose because taking more will increase estrogen.

After a cycle, it can be used with Nolv and Vitamin E, much more beneficially versus while on a cycle....but you don't have to choose...you can use it on cycle and for PCT.

By the way:

"Bro"

See! I'm right again! Because I said bro! It makes people right when they say "bro"...it shows their brotelligence, even if they are selling out...aka, becoming "brostitutes".

[alo5603]

lol, thanks "bro".

alo

[powerliftmike]

I am beginning to think HCG is worthless. We all know it doesn't upregulate the HPTA it further suppresses it. It may desesitize the testicles and it rapidly converts to estrogen in the body at any dosage. I don't know what I should expect but I haven't noticed any effects from taking it. Perhaps a surge in test lasting one day, but that is ultimately of no use to me.

[powerliftmike]

I am beginning to think HCG is worthless. We all know it doesn't upregulate the HPTA it further suppresses it. It may desesitize the testicles and it rapidly converts to estrogen in the body at any dosage. I don't know what I should expect but I haven't noticed any effects from taking it. Perhaps a surge in test lasting one day, but that is ultimately of no use to me.

What do you bros think?

[mranak]

Is still incorrect. 300iu ELEVATES estrogen, period.

Yes. Maybe JohnnyB meant to say/should have said that 300 iu is an adequate dose and that dosages above that will further elevate estrogen, which can be an issue in and of its own.

I'ven seen a good few labs in a very good HRT forum and I don't need any studies to tell me that hCG increases estrogen and that the more hCG, the more the hCG increase.

As for using hCG during the cycle, I think I have an easy example of why it is good to use it during the cycle. I've heard from guys that didn't use hCG during the cycle, had their balls atrophy, use hCG after the cycle, and perhaps only one of the two balls popped back. Not many guys want that to happen to them.

Use hCG during the cycle and the leydig cells never shut down. As soon as the body starts sending them LH (during PCT), they are ready to respond. I just don't see much benefit to using hCG at this stage. Usage of hCG certainly isn't likely to help with the HP part of the HPTA during PCT as far as I know.

[shortie]

I am beginning to think HCG is worthless. We all know it doesn't upregulate the HPTA it further suppresses it. It may desesitize the testicles and it rapidly converts to estrogen in the body at any dosage. I don't know what I should expect but I haven't noticed any effects from taking it. Perhaps a surge in test lasting one day, but that is ultimately of no use to me.

I think this should help, I have always thought of HCG as just another way to get the testes back to size and more active to begin PCT effectively. This is why I advocate it's use at the end of a cycle.

Tamoxifen Blocks HCG Induced Leydig Cell Desensitization
HCG induced testicular desensitization seems to be a hot topic. There are a number of studies showing that concomitant use of Nolvadex ameliorates this. The first abstract suggests that HCG at least partially blocks the conversion of 17 alpha-hydroxyprogesterone (17 OHP), a testosterone precursor, to testosterone. This effect is suppressed by Nolvadex.

So if you can increase testicular function without desensitizing the teste receptors then you have made a jump start on PCT enhancing the ability of agents like clomid/nolva/a-dex to stimulate the HTPA.

[elcapitan]

See! I'm right again! Because I said bro! It makes people right when they say "bro"...it shows their brotelligence, even if they are selling out...aka, becoming "brostitutes".

how much for a Bro Job?? lol

[JohnnyB]

Yes. Maybe JohnnyB meant to say/should have said that 300 iu is an adequate dose and that dosages above that will further elevate estrogen, which can be an issue in and of its own.

I'ven seen a good few labs in a very good HRT forum and I don't need any studies to tell me that hCG increases estrogen and that the more hCG, the more the hCG increase.

As for using hCG during the cycle, I think I have an easy example of why it is good to use it during the cycle. I've heard from guys that didn't use hCG during the cycle, had their balls atrophy, use hCG after the cycle, and perhaps only one of the two balls popped back. Not many guys want that to happen to them.

Use hCG during the cycle and the leydig cells never shut down. As soon as the body starts sending them LH (during PCT), they are ready to respond. I just don't see much benefit to using hCG at this stage. Usage of hCG certainly isn't likely to help with the HP part of the HPTA during PCT as far as I know.

I'm glad some one sees what I trying to say, without a bias, some times when you're just trying to prove someone wrong, you over look things. The study I posted said that estrogen reached maximum levels at 1500iu, but at 300iu the initial peak was absent, that's all I was saying. The lower the dose the lower possibility of estrogen. If one dose of 1500iu took them to the max levels what would 3000iu do? At that dose you get into desensitizing as well, which isn't good when trying to recover.

That's why I use the 300-500iu every 3-5 day to keep the boys alive during a cycle, instead of trying to bring them back from the died with higher doses. 500iu e3d is what works for me. Maybe hooker could tell us what he uses, when using HCG.

JohnnyB

[JohnnyB]

So if you can increase testicular function without desensitizing the teste receptors then you have made a jump start on PCT enhancing the ability of agents like clomid/nolva/a-dex to stimulate the HTPA.

That's the point exactly

JohnnyB

[JohnnyB]

how much for a Bro Job?? lol

I get it Bro Job, hooker

JohnnyB

[Property of Steroid.com]

I'm glad some one sees what I trying to say, without a bias, some times when you're just trying to prove someone wrong, you over look things.

That's why I use the 300-500iu every 3-5 day to keep the boys alive during a cycle, instead of trying to bring them back from the died with higher doses. 500iu e3d is what works for me. Maybe hooker could tell us what he uses, when using HCG.

JohnnyB

Facts prove ideas and concepts wrong, not other people. The more accurately you describe the truest possible state of affairs in the world is how correct you are, and conversely, the opposite description of same makes you wrong. Unfortunately, incorrect representation of that state of affairs (i.e. the written word), epistemologically also makes you wrong in this forum, even if conceptually or metaphysically you are right.

I'm writing an article on PCT which will include my HCG thoughts for BB4L, and it will probably be done next month. However, my article for MesoRx will go into why Exemestane ought to be used on PCT with HCG and Nolvadex, instead of Arimidex or Letro. However, you can simply read some of that info in my book, although at 350+ pages, the book is a monster already, and clearly I couldn't go into the length I can when writing a single article on a single compound....or the book would be a thousand pages, easily.

[shortie]

Damnit Hooker slow down I gotta run get my dictionary................lol.

[system admin]

tallk so the rest of us can understand... "Dic" haha

bc