allready on testosterne therapy

[hootie_ks]

hi guys i need some help i am allready taking testim 50 mg daily for low testoterone levels and am working out three times a week and starting to feel the deference and makeing small gains i have leagal acccess to an exta 100 mg that i could take for 10 weeks at a time and just wondering if the extra would actually do me any good also looking for advise on cycleing for people who allready have to take testosterone is there anything i should be concerend with cant get any doctors i know to even talk to me about it. [B]help please.[/B Respectfully Hootie

[icedudez]

lucky guy,lol.

[oldman]

I am no expert but the only problem I would see is at such a low dose of Test your natural test production is going to stop altogether and you might end up being lower than you were before.

I am on test replacement (HRT) all legal like. I am using 500mg of sust a week and I feel great. My test levels were are 56 so I was practically a woman but 4 weeks into it I am lifting heavier, sleeping better, sex is great.

Oldman

[icedudez]

I am no expert but the only problem I would see is at such a low dose of Test your natural test production is going to stop altogether and you might end up being lower than you were before.

I am on test replacement (HRT) all legal like. I am using 500mg of sust a week and I feel great. My test levels were are 56 so I was practically a woman but 4 weeks into it I am lifting heavier, sleeping better, sex is great.

Oldman

out of curiosity, why would a doctor prescribe so high? 500mg a week? do u do pct on hrt?

[oldman]

One my test levels were so low but I am also on Deca because of several joint injury so my Test has to be higher than my deca or it will effect my test levels again.

Yes you do PCT just like a normal cycle I do HCG mid way and at the end and clomid at the end also. It is a 16 weeks cycle.

I am also using HGH. I am a new man and I feel great!!

Oldman

[mranak]

I am on test replacement (HRT) all legal like. I am using 500mg of sust a week and I feel great.

Don't fool yourself; that isn't TRT. Not even close.

[oldman]

Don't fool yourself; that isn't TRT. Not even close.

Yup that what I am trying to do, fool myself,, geez if you have something to say spit it out why bother wasting your time posting if you are going to make nonsense statements.

[powerliftmike]

Yeah what is mranak talking about? Maybe he means that is too high a dosage for normal TRT and you are "fooling yourself" that you need that much when all you want is to gain muscle. Still that is kind of ridiculous and none of anybody's business except you and your doctor.

[oldman]

Yeah what is mranak talking about? Maybe he means that is too high a dosage for normal TRT and you are "fooling yourself" that you need that much when all you want is to gain muscle. Still that is kind of ridiculous and none of anybody's business except you and your doctor.

I am open to ideas but Maybe he is thinking what you say and maybe that is true but the problem is if I go with a lower dose and use Deca for my bad joints my test levels would be lower than they started at I would think.

I am just following the doctors orders so???

I just hate bashers that leave halfass answers and try to make people feel bad.

Thanks

Oldman

[mranak]

Yup that what I am trying to do, fool myself,, geez if you have something to say spit it out why bother wasting your time posting if you are going to make nonsense statements.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to bash you. Thought what I was saying was obvious.

Legitimate TRT maintains serum testosterone in the 'normal' range. For most guys, this means 100mg of testosterone cypinoate/week, but it can vary from person to person. What matters isn't the dosage, but what the follow-up labwork ways.

Legitimate TRT isn't cycled either. The body strives for regularity. So why would you stop the TRT and go back to feeling like shit again?

Sustanon is also a very poor choice for TRT, unless you are injecting like ED or EOD, and why would you want to do that? Serum testosterone is much more stable with a single long-ester testosterone such as testosterone cypionate or testosterone enanthate .

Deca isn't part of testosterone replacement therapy. Deca does have some legitimate medical uses, but it just isn't TRT; nobody has a deca definciency.

Hope that this clarfies my post. Sorry for not elaborating earlier.

[Nickster#1]

One my test levels were so low but I am also on Deca because of several joint injury so my Test has to be higher than my deca or it will effect my test levels again.

Yes you do PCT just like a normal cycle I do HCG mid way and at the end and clomid at the end also. It is a 16 weeks cycle.

I am also using HGH. I am a new man and I feel great!!

Oldman

You are full oif shit...there is no way that a doctor in the USA is going to prescribe 500mg of sust ew let alone even 1mg of deca. Not a chance pal....I worked for an endocrinologist for over a year, and the most test I ever saw him prescribe anyone for low levels is 200mg of enanth or cyp every 2 weeks.

[Blacktip]

Don't fool yourself; that isn't TRT. Not even close.

Dont fool yourself you are not an expert. All post answers by this guy can be found using the google button. He is the biggest parrot on the aas boards. He has low self esteem and answering posts gives his life a sense of being.
Please dismiss his posts and sensless nonsense and read for amusement only.

[Knight1811]

Still that is kind of ridiculous and none of anybody's business except you and your doctor.

Powerliftmike,

As usual, your post is dead-on target. Great response.

[Knight1811]

You are full oif shit...there is no way that a doctor in the USA is going to prescribe 500mg of sust ew let alone even 1mg of deca . Not a chance pal....I worked for an endocrinologist for over a year, and the most test I ever saw him prescribe anyone for low levels is 200mg of enanth or cyp every 2 weeks.

HRT/TRT clinics have gotten wiser and realized that even cyp and Enathate drop off like a fricking rock after 5 days or so....hence the most you will go without injecting is a week...if a longer injection time is utilized then that person will get all kinds of negative effects from the falling levels of test in his system....headaches, depression, memory issues, cranky mood, edgyness, loss of sex drive, loss of appetite, etc etc. I would seriously question an endocrinologist who still assigns injections every two weeks when clearly the test level has dropped so low and then reinject another 200mg to cause a sudden spike...the patient would be on a rollar coaster ride of hormonal hell.

Furthermore, everyone responds differently to test dosages. Just because the most you saw prescribed was 200mg in every two weeks doesn't mean others out there haven't been prescirbed more to elicit a qualitative impact (mood enhance, increase sex drive, appetite, overall sense of well-being, etc) nor does it justify your "liar" remark.

[WannabePro]

I am no expert but the only problem I would see is at such a low dose of Test your natural test production is going to stop altogether and you might end up being lower than you were before.

I am on test replacement (HRT) all legal like. I am using 500mg of sust a week and I feel great. My test levels were are 56 so I was practically a woman but 4 weeks into it I am lifting heavier, sleeping better, sex is great.

Oldman

Does this make you sterile?

[WannabePro]

One my test levels were so low but I am also on Deca because of several joint injury so my Test has to be higher than my deca or it will effect my test levels again.

Yes you do PCT just like a normal cycle I do HCG mid way and at the end and clomid at the end also. It is a 16 weeks cycle.

I am also using HGH. I am a new man and I feel great!!

Oldman

Do low test levels mean you're sterile?

[oldman]

mranak No worries and thank you for your follow-up I did not understand what your comment was saying. The only reason I come to this board is to try to gain knowledge from other "users". Doctors can run all their theories and tests but until it is used in Real Life situations no one can say how it is going to work or not.

Nickster#1 Fvck You is all i have to say calling me a lair you little piss ant MF! Are you my doctor? Are you an expert?? oh yeah you worked for a doctors, so did you wear a fcking nurses dress you little fvck! you better watch who you call a lair.

The only thing you said that was worth anything and it has nothing to do with anything is Deca IS not a required drug for AAS but if you knew how to properly read you would have seen that I am taking it for several joint issues so the higher split doses of Sust are being used to not only bring up my natural LOW Test levels but also to counteract the lowering effect of the Deca. Since you are the expert I guess this is not correct way to do it I guess I should have my doctor come get some lessons from you since he is only a doctor and all. POS!

WannabePro I am not sure if low test and sterility go hand in hand nor do I know if I am or not. I was not tested for that but my wife cannot have kids anymore so that would not have been a test since it would not matter. But I am sure someone on this board would no if this does effect your sperm count.

Like I noted at the start of this page this was only my opinion and I admit to not being an expert so to people like Nickster#1 that seem to know it all and the rest of us are dumbfcks maybe I will try not to help anymore.

thank you to those that are open and actually want to generally help others.


Oldman

[beuleux]

right on oldman.

[Knight1811]

mranak No worries and thank you for your follow-up I did not understand what your comment was saying. The only reason I come to this board is to try to gain knowledge from other "users". Doctors can run all their theories and tests but until it is used in Real Life situations no one can say how it is going to work or not.

Nickster#1 Fvck You is all i have to say calling me a lair you little piss ant MF! Are you my doctor? Are you an expert?? oh yeah you worked for a doctors, so did you wear a fcking nurses dress you little fvck! you better watch who you call a lair.

The only thing you said that was worth anything and it has nothing to do with anything is Deca IS not a required drug for AAS but if you knew how to properly read you would have seen that I am taking it for several joint issues so the higher split doses of Sust are being used to not only bring up my natural LOW Test levels but also to counteract the lowering effect of the Deca. Since you are the expert I guess this is not correct way to do it I guess I should have my doctor come get some lessons from you since he is only a doctor and all. POS!

WannabePro I am not sure if low test and sterility go hand in hand nor do I know if I am or not. I was not tested for that but my wife cannot have kids anymore so that would not have been a test since it would not matter. But I am sure someone on this board would no if this does effect your sperm count.

Like I noted at the start of this page this was only my opinion and I admit to not being an expert so to people like Nickster#1 that seem to know it all and the rest of us are dumbfcks maybe I will try not to help anymore.

thank you to those that are open and actually want to generally help others.


Oldman

Good for you bro. The "liar" remark was totally off-base, wrong and pretentious. It's one thing to share your experience CONSTRUCTIVELY (no matter how how big the criticism) But, to jump right in and start screaming BS and lableing folks liars. WTF, Over?
Anyways, I digress from this thread....but, nonetheless, your response was absolutely warranted. Now, can I get something for kissing you A$$? J/K!

[mranak]

WannabePro: Low testosterone does not mean a man in sterile, nor does appropriate make a man sterile.

Nickster#1: Unfortuantely, there are physicians within the US that care more about making money than they do about patients health.

As for the 2 week injectin schedule, I find that regimen to be improper because it put serum testosterone on a rollercoaster. Unfortuantely, many endocrinologists have been slow to realize that weekly injections are the way to go. I'm not flaming you here, but just thought I wouldn't give my input.

[JohnnyB]

Don't fool yourself; that isn't TRT. Not even close.

I agree, 500 of test and deca is a cycle, no matter how you slice it. I'm wondering how legal those doses are, the insert for Upjohn cypionate says 100-400mg every 1 to 2 weeks. 200mg every 2 weeks is the standard dose, it can be adjusted from there, but I doubt anyone would need more then 200mg a week for HRT, don't for get it a replacement dose, it's not supposed to send your test levels higher then your normal levels. 500mg a week is going to put at twice as much or more, then add deca, it's a cycle and with your statement that you need more test then deca, I'm going to guess it's at 400mg, again a cycle dose. I'm wondering how legit you Dr. is, not saying he's not a doc, what I'm saying is he is not telling you the truth. You are not on HRT doses.

The medical reasons for using norandrolone, says nothing about joints. http://www.diseasesdatabase.com/umls...serChoice=8791 so if that his excuse for prescribing it, he could be doing it illegally. The definition say it can be prescribed for HRT, but if you're already on 500mg of test, you don't need the deca and if you're on 400mg or so of deca you don't need the test. If your Dr. is selling that to you as a HRT regiment, I wouldn't trust him, because that is far from a HRT dose.

Now if he's doing it as a supervised cycle, watch out, that the DEA dosn't bust him and drag all his patients to court and maybe charge some with the illegal use of anabolic steroids . There will be a paper trail and some day a pharmacist will see those prescriptions and know those are to high, one call to the DEA and that Docs days are over.

There are dr's that will do anything for a buck, which usally includes illeagl prescribing of drugs, that's where the money is, he could have a pharmacist working with him. You'd know that if they say go to this pharmacy only or this guy works with us and know what to do. All Dr's ned records for billing, there's your paper trail

JohnnyB

[oldman]

I agree, 500 of test and deca is a cycle, no matter how you slice it. I'm wondering how legal those doses are, the insert for Upjohn cypionate says 100-400mg every 1 to 2 weeks. 200mg every 2 weeks is the standard dose, it can be adjusted from there, but I doubt anyone would need more then 200mg a week for HRT, don't for get it a replacement dose, it's not supposed to send your test levels higher then your normal levels. 500mg a week is going to put at twice as much or more, then add deca, it's a cycle and with your statement that you need more test then deca, I'm going to guess it's at 400mg, again a cycle dose. I'm wondering how legit you Dr. is, not saying he's not a doc, what I'm saying is he is not telling you the truth. You are not on HRT doses.

The medical reasons for using norandrolone, says nothing about joints. http://www.diseasesdatabase.com/umls...serChoice=8791 so if that his excuse for prescribing it, he could be doing it illegally. The definition say it can be prescribed for HRT, but if you're already on 500mg of test, you don't need the deca and if you're on 400mg or so of deca you don't need the test. If your Dr. is selling that to you as a HRT regiment, I wouldn't trust him, because that is far from a HRT dose.

Now if he's doing it as a supervised cycle, watch out, that the DEA dosn't bust him and drag all his patients to court and maybe charge some with the illegal use of anabolic steroids . There will be a paper trail and some day a pharmacist will see those prescriptions and know those are to high, one call to the DEA and that Docs days are over.

There are dr's that will do anything for a buck, which usally includes illeagl prescribing of drugs, that's where the money is, he could have a pharmacist working with him. You'd know that if they say go to this pharmacy only or this guy works with us and know what to do. All Dr's ned records for billing, there's your paper trail

JohnnyB

Thanks for your input this is good information to know much better than calling someone a liar. The only thing right off that confused me is your statement here
<quote>
if you're on 400mg or so of deca you don't need the test. </quote>

That goes against everything I have ever read anywhere and on this board. First off I am not on 400mg or more of Deca but second that much deca would shut down your Test levels to nothing is that not correct? So in that case why would you say that if someone is doing Deca they do not need Test? I am confused by this because again I read nothing but flames about people coming here and say they are doing Deca only cycles and they get jumped all over saying It will shut you down hard??

Again I am not questions your knowledge since you are a Vet/Mod I suppose you know more than me which is not the question here.

I will bring up this info with my doctor on Monday and see what he has to say about it.

This is exactly what this forum should be about, people bouncing ideas off each other so more is learned from each new post..


Again thanks for the input

Oldman

[JohnnyB]

Dont fool yourself you are not an expert. All post answers by this guy can be found using the google button. He is the biggest parrot on the aas boards. He has low self esteem and answering posts gives his life a sense of being.
Please dismiss his posts and sensless nonsense and read for amusement only.

WOW, it seems your self esteem is even lower, anyone that has to belittle someone, has issues, that need to do with make themselves feel better then others.

If the post needs to be dismissed, why waste board space by posting it. You got your shot in, then want to clean it up by saying that. If you don't like what someone posts, deal with the issue at hand. The way you did it, you made it personal. Which makes your post, off topic and you never proved what he said was right, wrong or indifferent. Remember this is a no flame board, so if you continue to break that rule, you could be banned. Having a disagreement over something isn't flamimg, it's when you make it personal or you attack someone character, that's when the flamimng starts.

So you don't need to warn us about someone, we're big boys we can figure out who's full of B.S. and who's not. You sdon't like someone be the bigger man and don't post anything negitive about them. If you disagree with their advise, show your way and let us figure out which is right or wrong.

Just for the record, what mranak said is true, those doses are cycle doses no matter how you slice it. Any dose that will take you hormone levels higher then normal are not replacement doses. HRT = Hormone Replacement Theropy, "replacement" being the key word

JohnnyB

[JohnnyB]

Thanks for your input this is good information to know much better than calling someone a liar. The only thing right off that confused me is your statement here
<quote>
if you're on 400mg or so of deca you don't need the test. </quote>

That goes against everything I have ever read anywhere and on this board. First off I am not on 400mg or more of Deca but second that much deca would shut down your Test levels to nothing is that not correct? So in that case why would you say that if someone is doing Deca they do not need Test? I am confused by this because again I read nothing but flames about people coming here and say they are doing Deca only cycles and they get jumped all over saying It will shut you down hard??

Again I am not questions your knowledge since you are a Vet/Mod I suppose you know more than me which is not the question here.

I will bring up this info with my doctor on Monday and see what he has to say about it.

This is exactly what this forum should be about, people bouncing ideas off each other so more is learned from each new post..


Again thanks for the input

Oldman

Bro the 400mg or so was a guess, based on your statement of, you needing more test then deca, 500 is more then 400 You are right, it does go against everything you've read, but remember what you read was dealing with cycle doses, not replacement doses. If you read that link I posted, it says deca could be used for HRT or in place of test. Why cause it's being used at replacement doses, not cycle doses and 500mg of test a week is a cycle dose, 300mg of deca is a cycle dose. Replacement doses will shut you down but not the way cycle doses do. Replacement doses don't cause the tsetes to shrivel up like a cycle, becuase it only replacing the test that is lacking. Will replacement doses cause your testes to shrivel up, yes, but not in weeks like a cycle, but over months, even years depending on the size of your dose.

I know a Bro that uses 100mg of deca a week and if I remember right 200mg of test, it might be less, but I can't remember. That's pushing replacement doses, but it closer to replacement then cycle doses, those doses aren't even close to cycling.

I hope that cleared it up for you, if not, ask something else, if I know I'll answer

JohnnyB

[freebirdforever]

RE: "testim 50 mg daily for low testoterone"

Going on T-therapy means your own T-production stops, thus, you need to stay on T-replacement permenantly. If your levels are in the 100s or 200s then it's definately worth it [just to be normal again].

The normal T-range is 300 to 1000 and you should know your pre-replacement leval and your stable post-replacement level. You are apparently applying one packet of Testim daily. The recommended dosage is one or two packets daily. If possible, try to get your doctor to move you up to two packets and then have him draw blood to see what your level is. Hopefully, it will be in the middle or upper-middle of the range [~600-800] which would mean you then have the T-level of the average studly 20-something guy.

[cb25]

as always...some solid posts by johnny b. don't think it could be said any better.

[Knight1811]

I agree, 500 of test and deca is a cycle, no matter how you slice it. I'm wondering how legal those doses are, the insert for Upjohn cypionate says 100-400mg every 1 to 2 weeks. 200mg every 2 weeks is the standard dose, it can be adjusted from there, but I doubt anyone would need more then 200mg a week for HRT, don't for get it a replacement dose, it's not supposed to send your test levels higher then your normal levels. 500mg a week is going to put at twice as much or more, then add deca, it's a cycle and with your statement that you need more test then deca, I'm going to guess it's at 400mg, again a cycle dose. I'm wondering how legit you Dr. is, not saying he's not a doc, what I'm saying is he is not telling you the truth. You are not on HRT doses.

The medical reasons for using norandrolone, says nothing about joints. http://www.diseasesdatabase.com/umls...serChoice=8791 so if that his excuse for prescribing it, he could be doing it illegally. The definition say it can be prescribed for HRT, but if you're already on 500mg of test, you don't need the deca and if you're on 400mg or so of deca you don't need the test. If your Dr. is selling that to you as a HRT regiment, I wouldn't trust him, because that is far from a HRT dose.

Now if he's doing it as a supervised cycle, watch out, that the DEA dosn't bust him and drag all his patients to court and maybe charge some with the illegal use of anabolic steroids . There will be a paper trail and some day a pharmacist will see those prescriptions and know those are to high, one call to the DEA and that Docs days are over.

There are dr's that will do anything for a buck, which usally includes illeagl prescribing of drugs, that's where the money is, he could have a pharmacist working with him. You'd know that if they say go to this pharmacy only or this guy works with us and know what to do. All Dr's ned records for billing, there's your paper trail

JohnnyB

JohnnyB,

I've ALWAYS respected your post. STRAIGHT UP....

However, I disagree wholeheardtedly about the "it's not supposed to send your test levels higher then your normal levels." That is a false.

The point of HRT is to get you into the upper levels. Not put you in the normal range...since most folks who seek HRT are already pretty much in normal range. Older folks who have normal test range for their age want to recapture their youthful years (IE Anti-Aging)...hence get the test level up and the HGH level up....PAST the point of what is normal for a 40 year old, a 50 year old, 60 year old or whatever. Anti-Aging efforts are not associate with disease or whatever medical ailment...it is associate strictly with age related decreases in whatever bodily functions, hormones, etc. Hence, not a medical necessity therefore...insurance doesn't cover it.

If a person has real medical necessity like no testes or whatever underlying medical issue then they need to see a specialist in that area and not an HRT doctor.

If I'm wrong, please correct me.

[mranak]

Knight1811: We must assume that JohnnyB means the normal range (the one that includes men of all ages) as defined by the lab. TRT should aim to bring testosterone into the upper third or quartile of the normal range. That is when the best balance occurs in that most men feel their best and serum testosterone is at healthy levels. Going above the normal range starts to become counterproduct in regards to ones overall and longterm health. It also can no longer be considered a 'replacement' dosage because the serum testosterone levels hit supraphysiological levels.

A big exception to this is those with wasting diseases. That is a totally different situation.

A good TRT physician is qualified to treat both secondary hypogonadism (the balls work, but the body simply isn't regulating enough testosterone) and primary hypogonadism (the body is telling the balls to make testosterone, but they just aren't making enough....or perhaps the balls have been removed).

[Knight1811]

Knight1811: We must assume that JohnnyB means the normal range (the one that includes men of all ages) as defined by the lab. TRT should aim to bring testosterone into the upper third or quartile of the normal range. That is when the best balance occurs in that most men feel their best and serum testosterone is at healthy levels. Going above the normal range starts to become counterproduct in regards to ones overall and longterm health. It also can no longer be considered a 'replacement' dosage because the serum testosterone levels hit supraphysiological levels.

A big exception to this is those with wasting diseases. That is a totally different situation.

A good TRT physician is qualified to treat both secondary hypogonadism (the balls work, but the body simply isn't regulating enough testosterone) and primary hypogonadism (the body is telling the balls to make testosterone, but they just aren't making enough....or perhaps the balls have been removed).

Mranak,

Sounds good but....and numbers are great to use but you forgot one critical element: the subjective input of the patient. If a patient isn't feeling at his best or if his libido isn't where it used to be or whatever then the patient isn't going to be happy with his TRT program. The objective in HRT/TRT is to increase the overall well being of the patient, libido and all that he used to enjoy as a youthful 18, 19 , 20 year old. If he is not getting those benefits with 200mg of test a week then what is to prevent the HRT doc from increasing the dosage? On the flip side, if a patient is feeling the best at only half the normal range for TEST then why increase his test up to the upper normal area?

There is an HRT/TRT doctor, SWALE is his online name. His real name is Dr. John C. I thinik it would behoove many TRT/HRT folks on this site to check his website: www.allthingsmale.com

It has great info and it address a lot of these issues.

[mranak]

Mranak,

Sounds good but....and numbers are great to use but you forgot one critical element: the subjective input of the patient. If a patient isn't feeling at his best or if his libido isn't where it used to be or whatever then the patient isn't going to be happy with his TRT program. The objective in HRT/TRT is to increase the overall well being of the patient, libido and all that he used to enjoy as a youthful 18, 19 , 20 year old. If he is not getting those benefits with 200mg of test a week then what is to prevent the HRT doc from increasing the dosage? On the flip side, if a patient is feeling the best at only half the normal range for TEST then why increase his test up to the upper normal area?

There is an HRT/TRT doctor, SWALE is his online name. His real name is Dr. John C. I thinik it would behoove many TRT/HRT folks on this site to check his website: www.allthingsmale.com

It has great info and it address a lot of these issues.

I agree that is the patient feels great when their serum testosterone is at the middle of the normal range, then why increase it futher.

But the top of the normal range is a practical healty limit for tuning up testosterone. And it is important to pay attention to factors such as estrogens. If estrogens are too high or too low, then that can be the cause of low testosterone symptoms as well.

SWALE, or Dr. John Crisler, that you mention is in my opinion \one of or perhaps the world's best TRT physicians. He has had tremendous success in getting his patients to feel well while limiting testoserone to the top of the normal range. If the person doesn't feel right at the top of the normal range, then the cause of their problems is not low testosterone, or at least not _just_ low testosterone.

[Nickster#1]

I agree, 500 of test and deca is a cycle, no matter how you slice it. I'm wondering how legal those doses are, the insert for Upjohn cypionate says 100-400mg every 1 to 2 weeks. 200mg every 2 weeks is the standard dose, it can be adjusted from there, but I doubt anyone would need more then 200mg a week for HRT, don't for get it a replacement dose, it's not supposed to send your test levels higher then your normal levels. 500mg a week is going to put at twice as much or more, then add deca, it's a cycle and with your statement that you need more test then deca, I'm going to guess it's at 400mg, again a cycle dose. I'm wondering how legit you Dr. is, not saying he's not a doc, what I'm saying is he is not telling you the truth. You are not on HRT doses.

The medical reasons for using norandrolone, says nothing about joints. http://www.diseasesdatabase.com/umls...serChoice=8791 so if that his excuse for prescribing it, he could be doing it illegally. The definition say it can be prescribed for HRT, but if you're already on 500mg of test, you don't need the deca and if you're on 400mg or so of deca you don't need the test. If your Dr. is selling that to you as a HRT regiment, I wouldn't trust him, because that is far from a HRT dose.

Now if he's doing it as a supervised cycle, watch out, that the DEA dosn't bust him and drag all his patients to court and maybe charge some with the illegal use of anabolic steroids . There will be a paper trail and some day a pharmacist will see those prescriptions and know those are to high, one call to the DEA and that Docs days are over.

There are dr's that will do anything for a buck, which usally includes illeagl prescribing of drugs, that's where the money is, he could have a pharmacist working with him. You'd know that if they say go to this pharmacy only or this guy works with us and know what to do. All Dr's ned records for billing, there's your paper trail

JohnnyB

Thanks Jhonny B for being so eloquent in getting my point across. The liar remark was out of line, my bad and Ill own it. But I still think that you, oldman, are stretching things, alot. I have nothing to prove though. Listen to what Jhonny B is saying...If your doctor is in fact prescribing what you say he is prescribing, then He is way beyond his scope and putting himself in danger of a malpractice suit. Im out....

[oldman]

Bro the 400mg or so was a guess, based on your statement of, you needing more test then deca , 500 is more then 400 You are right, it does go against everything you've read, but remember what you read was dealing with cycle doses, not replacement doses. If you read that link I posted, it says deca could be used for HRT or in place of test. Why cause it's being used at replacement doses, not cycle doses and 500mg of test a week is a cycle dose, 300mg of deca is a cycle dose. Replacement doses will shut you down but not the way cycle doses do. Replacement doses don't cause the tsetes to shrivel up like a cycle, becuase it only replacing the test that is lacking. Will replacement doses cause your testes to shrivel up, yes, but not in weeks like a cycle, but over months, even years depending on the size of your dose.

I know a Bro that uses 100mg of deca a week and if I remember right 200mg of test, it might be less, but I can't remember. That's pushing replacement doses, but it closer to replacement then cycle doses, those doses aren't even close to cycling.

I hope that cleared it up for you, if not, ask something else, if I know I'll answer

JohnnyB

Again good info and this is on the list of questions I will be bringing up to my doctor tomorrow when I talk to him.

As I have admitted in ALL posts I am not expert I can only tell you from personal experience as most people do because all the science in the world does not apply to all people exactly the same. The dose of Deca is 300mg/week for the record which to be honest is higher than I would done Anyway am I pushing the levels for TRT? probably so according to the opinions on this board and will I take advantage of this? of course.. now I am not a fool and I plan on doing blood work after each stint to make sure no liver or other issues arise because dying is not any better than having low test levels no matter how you look at it.

I do believe that when you are under a doctors care you listen to what they tell you and go with it, if this do not work out or your blood work comes back poor then I think you have to decide if you trust the doctor and continue or use your head and find a new one. I am not doing AAS to be a BB or whatever like many on this board are but again if I am going to gain from it why not get my monies worth and live and lift like a kid again.

I would not ever come here and say You are a liar or You don't know what you are talking about to anyone because there is No One Person here can say how AAS, TRT or any other treatments will react in Every Single Person. Clinical trials are great, science is great but each person will react different and I am just fine for now and hopefully I will continue to feel better.

Good luck all.

Oldman

[testosterona]

so the higher split doses of Sust are being used to not only bring up my natural LOW Test levels but also to counteract the lowering effect of the Deca . [/QUOTE] by oldman

this makes no sense whatsoever. this is some crazy trt. he is perscribeing a straight bulking cycle.....legaly. this doc is going down sooner or later!

[JohnnyB]

JohnnyB,

I've ALWAYS respected your post. STRAIGHT UP....

However, I disagree wholeheardtedly about the "it's not supposed to send your test levels higher then your normal levels." That is a false.

The point of HRT is to get you into the upper levels. Not put you in the normal range...since most folks who seek HRT are already pretty much in normal range. Older folks who have normal test range for their age want to recapture their youthful years (IE Anti-Aging)...hence get the test level up and the HGH level up....PAST the point of what is normal for a 40 year old, a 50 year old, 60 year old or whatever. Anti-Aging efforts are not associate with disease or whatever medical ailment...it is associate strictly with age related decreases in whatever bodily functions, hormones, etc. Hence, not a medical necessity therefore...insurance doesn't cover it.

If a person has real medical necessity like no testes or whatever underlying medical issue then they need to see a specialist in that area and not an HRT doctor.

If I'm wrong, please correct me.

You don't have to agree with me and it's okay if it's whole heartedly or half heartedly This is what I know about HRT, it is for those who are below the normal range, some may get it if they are in the low normal range (under 300ng/dl) but it's a stretch. Anyone in the normal range will not get HRT (by a legit Dr)and there ins. will not pay for it, unless there are certain circumstances. The numbers are, 241-827ng/dl (LabCrop) If you're not below the 241ng/dl range, you'll have a hard time getting your ins to pay for it and it's wouldn't be HRT because you're still in the normal range. Some Drs will take you a bit higher then normal, but you won't stay there, like a cycle. The idea for HRT is to keep you in the normal range, before your next injection. I have found that 100mg every week, is better then 200 every 2 weeks, but I feel my dose needs to be raised, which I will discuss with my Dr. I doubt we'll go to 200mg a week.

Just to give you an idea of what gear does, I was using 100mg of prop eod, 3 days after my last shot. I was still at 2300ng/dl, almost 3 times about the high normal range, that was a cycle. HRT is to replace the hormones you lack, it's not to enhance the hormone, that's what a cycle does.

Most people now days or on these boards, think doing 200mg a week is HRT. If you have done a cycle, proper PCT and your hormones stay in the normal range, even if you've never done a cycle or used gear. Not only do you not need HRT, but any added hormone is enhancing the hormones, not replacing, it's just a low dose cycle. There are to many self prescribed, so called HRT users on the boards.

200mg a week for HRT is about the max, but I would think after what my hormones did with 100mg of prop eod. That the build up of cyp would keep you above the high normal range, possibly even before the next injection. Now someone that's been on HRT for year, it may not have the same effect. It may keep them in the normal range, but only a Dr could say after doing blood work.

Bottom line, any dose that will keep you over the normal range is not HRT, not even if a Dr is monitoring you or prescribing the hormones. 500mg of test plus deca fits that criteria, it's a cycle and I'm wondering how legal it is to prescribe that much hormone(s) to anyone. I'm going to guess, if the DEA found out about those doses, that Dr wouldn't be in business much longer. There have been more then one so-called anti-aging clinic shut down, because of their misuse of prescribing hormones and other practices.

If you're in the USA, I wouldn't want to be a patient of a Dr prescribing such doses. With all the crapp congress is trying to pull with major sports organization. These so called anti-aging clinics that prescribe cycle will be next on the list. With some already going down, I'm sure the DEA is wise to what's going on and will look into more of them, to satisfy, the congress' thirst for blood.

This will really get um going, if one of these guys that gets caught, reveals he's using one of these clinics and is under Dr supervision. They'll re-write the laws and it'll be harder to just get HRT for those that need it

JohnnyB

[JohnnyB]

this makes no sense whatsoever. this is some crazy trt. he is perscribeing a straight bulking cycle.....legaly. this doc is going down sooner or later!

I agree, I wonder how legal what he's doing is. You make a good point, the deca is so high it lowers his test levels, so he need test to combat that, that's not the legal criteria for HRT.

Here's something to think about, if the Dr doesn't deal with insurance. That ought to give you a clue, that what he/she's doing doesn't meet legal protocol for prescribing hormones and/or their in it for the buck, not medical reasons. If what a Dr is doing is legal, he wants insurances to send their clients to them and will accept what the insurance pays. But if their looking to make money and/or what their doing doesn't meet the protocol for what they are prescribing, they want cash. Because they get the price they are asking (insurances adjust payments) and/or the insurance can't monitor them and what they are prescribing. Which could get them to alert the authorities, because they have to send why they are prescribing the hormone and at what dose, with lab reports (blood work) show the need for the drug being prescribed. How can you rationalize deca at a dose that causes test levels to be lowered and then test to combat those low levels. First you need to prescribe the deca, then get blood work showing the test levels have been lowered, by this dose of deca. Which will cause the insurance to say, why are you giving him that much deca? They won't okay the test and will more then likely never have okayed that much deca, for joints. If the medical need can't be proved, it's illegal, especially with a scheduled III drug.

All I can say is becareful, not only is what is being done illegal, but there's a paper trail, billing. If there's no billing and/or medical records, the Dr is saying he knows what he's doing is illeagl.

JohnnyB

[Knight1811]

You don't have to agree with me and it's okay if it's whole heartedly or half heartedly This is what I know about HRT, it is for those who are below the normal range, some may get it if they are in the low normal range (under 300ng/dl) but it's a stretch. Anyone in the normal range will not get HRT (by a legit Dr)and there ins. will not pay for it, unless there are certain circumstances. The numbers are, 241-827ng/dl (LabCrop) If you're not below the 241ng/dl range, you'll have a hard time getting your ins to pay for it and it's wouldn't be HRT because you're still in the normal range. Some Drs will take you a bit higher then normal, but you won't stay there, like a cycle. The idea for HRT is to keep you in the normal range, before your next injection. I have found that 100mg every week, is better then 200 every 2 weeks, but I feel my dose needs to be raised, which I will discuss with my Dr. I doubt we'll go to 200mg a week.

Just to give you an idea of what gear does, I was using 100mg of prop eod, 3 days after my last shot. I was still at 2300ng/dl, almost 3 times about the high normal range, that was a cycle. HRT is to replace the hormones you lack, it's not to enhance the hormone, that's what a cycle does.

Most people now days or on these boards, think doing 200mg a week is HRT. If you have done a cycle, proper PCT and your hormones stay in the normal range, even if you've never done a cycle or used gear. Not only do you not need HRT, but any added hormone is enhancing the hormones, not replacing, it's just a low dose cycle. There are to many self prescribed, so called HRT users on the boards.

200mg a week for HRT is about the max, but I would think after what my hormones did with 100mg of prop eod. That the build up of cyp would keep you above the high normal range, possibly even before the next injection. Now someone that's been on HRT for year, it may not have the same effect. It may keep them in the normal range, but only a Dr could say after doing blood work.

Bottom line, any dose that will keep you over the normal range is not HRT, not even if a Dr is monitoring you or prescribing the hormones. 500mg of test plus deca fits that criteria, it's a cycle and I'm wondering how legal it is to prescribe that much hormone(s) to anyone. I'm going to guess, if the DEA found out about those doses, that Dr wouldn't be in business much longer. There have been more then one so-called anti-aging clinic shut down, because of their misuse of prescribing hormones and other practices.

If you're in the USA, I wouldn't want to be a patient of a Dr prescribing such doses. With all the crapp congress is trying to pull with major sports organization. These so called anti-aging clinics that prescribe cycle will be next on the list. With some already going down, I'm sure the DEA is wise to what's going on and will look into more of them, to satisfy, the congress' thirst for blood.

This will really get um going, if one of these guys that gets caught, reveals he's using one of these clinics and is under Dr supervision. They'll re-write the laws and it'll be harder to just get HRT for those that need it

JohnnyB

Long response. Thanks. And, I'm glad you responded. I thought you disappeared.
Ok, here goes:


I think there is a "blurring of boundaries" going on here....anti-aging proponents are in the "normal range" and wish to increase their well being and all that good stuff so they go on HRT/TRT treatment. I think you are referring to hypogon-folks that have a real medical issue. I'm talking about folks in the "normal" range but have a significant drop in levels from their younger years. I'm sure you are aware the TEST production levels drop noticeably as we age...30s, 40s, and so forth. That is what anti-aging effort is for: to recapture the youthful benefits of the younger years...with exercise, diet, HRT/TRT, vitamins, yoga, meditation, or whatever else. There is nothing wrong with HRT for folks in normal ranges for their older years who want to return their test range back to their younger years...nothing at all.

Here is something to think about from Swale's website:

"TOTAL TESTOSTERONE

This is the assay your patients will most focus on. It’s also the one physicians who do not understand TRT will use to deny patients the testosterone supplementation they want, and need, when Total T is at low-normal levels...(www.allthingsmale.com. "MY CURRENT BEST THOUGHTS ON HOW TO ADMINISTER TRT FOR MEN." Dr. John Crisler.)."



Regarding the desired TEST ranges for folks on HRT/TRT. HRT patients, on the general, will be given exogenous TEST to get you into the upper quartile limit. Here is a quote from Swale's website:

"So now let’s say we have the patient in a state where Total Testosterone is in the upper quartile of “normal” range, Bioavailable Testosterone is nicely elevated, with E2 safely in check. At this point I offer the patient my HCG protocol (www.allthingsmale.com. "MY CURRENT BEST THOUGHTS ON HOW TO ADMINISTER TRT FOR MEN." Dr. John Crisler.)."



Regarding insurance, I've always been a low normal level test range person, a recent blood work done revealed that my test level was 197ng/dl...I called my insurance company with the paperwork from the bloodtest to support my request to have the insurance company pay for my HRT/TRT...the insurance ask me if there was an underlying medical issue, I said the doctor said no. The insurance company said then it's not a medical necessity and would not cover it. I have a PPO insurance company, one of the biggest in the U.S. Mine is simply low due to me being a low test production kind of guy and even lower now since I am getting older.



Regarding responses to TEST administration:
It varies greatly from person to person and no single protocol or dosing amount of TEST will suffice....some will require more while other require less. It's like anything in life.

Here is a great quote from Swale's website:

"My experience thus far has taught me two lessons: (1) You don’t know how a patient will react to a given dose/system until you try and (2) NOTHING surprises me anymore.

There simply is no way to predict how a particular patient will respond—not Medical History (i.e. number or severity of symptoms), body weight, baseline hormone levels, even anabolic steroid history. I have had very slight gentlemen barely elevate on 100mg of test cyp per week, and massively muscled former steroid athletes who went to nearly two times the top of “normal” range on the same dosage (they had similar baselines).(www.allthingsmale.com. "MY CURRENT BEST THOUGHTS ON HOW TO ADMINISTER TRT FOR MEN." Dr. John Crisler.)."

I don't know what the upper dosage amount for TEST would be for an HRT/TRT patient, but certainly I would not limit it to 100 or 200 or whatever quantatative value. I say this simply b/c we don't know how a person will respond to whatever amount of TEST dosage they are given....As noted above.

Regarding Swale, I agree with Mranak (this time only ), I think Swale is very versed in HRT/TRT and he is a true leader among doctors in this field. It would do a lot of bros good to visit Swale's site. It's full of great information.

Now, it may sound like, I'm challenging you or something, but I'm not. I KNOW you know your shiat...i've been lurking on this board for many moons and read a lot of your stuff and thought "this dude knows his shiat." And as you are aware, legions of bros here follow your advise with great enthusiasm.
I'm not blowing sunshine up your A$$ when I say this. I simply don't want to come off like I'm somehow pissing on your experience or wisdom.
I am just saying, I know what I know, HOWEVER I am always open to new viewpoints to expand what I know or to strike-out what is wrong in my views and replace with the correct one. lol. Does that make sense?

[ranran]

Well guys, I feel as though I must chime in at this point to share my recent experience. I have recently embarked on TRT after finding an outstanding dr. who specializes in andropause for men. I am 36 years old and have completed numerous cycles over the past 16 years...no I am no guru, nor do I protest to be; I do strive however, to keep learning everyday and absorb as much data as my little brain can hold.

Now, I am fortunate in that mr dr. has known and cared for my parents for many years so there is I suppose a slight bias in my favor.

Anyway, to the point.... I am curently prescribed 300mgs/wk. of Test Enth., now I do have to arrive at his office every week at the same time for the inj. (which costs me a co-pay of $25, not too bad) However, he has already told me that after 6 months of monitoring me, I will be able to take the Test Enth. home and adminsiter the injs. myself.

Of course there will be the obligatory blood work periodically, but I don't mind. By the way I just entered week three. I am looking forward to the results after one year of continous TRT.

Not only that, but he has even mentioned HGH at some point in the future as well....as an option to consider.

Just my little imput.

Ran

[Knight1811]

Well guys, I feel as though I must chime in at this point to share my recent experience. I have recently embarked on TRT after finding an outstanding dr. who specializes in andropause for men. I am 36 years old and have completed numerous cycles over the past 16 years...no I am no guru, nor do I protest to be; I do strive however, to keep learning everyday and absorb as much data as my little brain can hold.

Now, I am fortunate in that mr dr. has known and cared for my parents for many years so there is I suppose a slight bias in my favor.

Anyway, to the point.... I am curently prescribed 300mgs/wk. of Test Enth., now I do have to arrive at his office every week at the same time for the inj. (which cost me a co-pay of $25, not too bad) However he has already told me that after 6 months of monitoring me I will be able to take the Test Enth. home and adminsiter the injs. myself.

Of course there will be the obligatory blood work periodically, but I don't mind. By the way I just entered week three. I am looking forward to the results after one year of continous TRT.

Not only that, but he has even mentioned HGH at some pint in the future as well as well as an option to consider.

Just my little imput.

Ran

Ran,

I'm glad you wrote your mg amount, 300mgs. Thanks for the input. Also, your post brings me to another point about HRT/TRT... IT IS FOR LIFE!!!
Folks need to understand that you don't stop taking the HRT/TRT and come off it like a regular cycle...HRT/TRT means, you go on and on and on and on. And on. Well, you can stop HRT/TRT...but you will go back to the way you were....

[ranran]

Knight, agreed my friend....it is a life long committment...not to be taken lightly.

And as I stated previously, I am fortunate because of the relationship that my family has enjoyed with my physician for many years. He is highly acclaimed, and is very well respected by those in the medical field here in south. Louisiana.

He has been at the fore-front of learning and incorporating the latest treatments and procedures in science that are considered to be the cutting edge of medicine by those in his field.

Ran

[mranak]

Well guys, I feel as though I must chime in at this point to share my recent experience. I have recently embarked on TRT after finding an outstanding dr. who specializes in andropause for men. I am 36 years old and have completed numerous cycles over the past 16 years...no I am no guru, nor do I protest to be; I do strive however, to keep learning everyday and absorb as much data as my little brain can hold.

Now, I am fortunate in that mr dr. has known and cared for my parents for many years so there is I suppose a slight bias in my favor.

Anyway, to the point.... I am curently prescribed 300mgs/wk. of Test Enth., now I do have to arrive at his office every week at the same time for the inj. (which costs me a co-pay of $25, not too bad) However, he has already told me that after 6 months of monitoring me, I will be able to take the Test Enth. home and adminsiter the injs. myself.

Of course there will be the obligatory blood work periodically, but I don't mind. By the way I just entered week three. I am looking forward to the results after one year of continous TRT.

Not only that, but he has even mentioned HGH at some point in the future as well....as an option to consider.

Just my little imput.

Ran

Something is wrong here. 300mg of testosterone enanthate /week is too much for the overwelming majority of patients. When does your physician expect to run followup bloodwork? I'm very confident that your total and free testosterone levels are well above the normal range.

If he simply front-loaded with 300mg, then that is another story.

I see no reason that you shouldn't already be allowed to do the injections yourself at home.