short cycles/ long cycles

[marcus300]

I would like to start a discussion about peoples experiences with long cycles vs short cycling,
As alot of people know i am a firm believer in short heavy shock cycles the late Paul B theory, i dont know if you all know who Paul B is so here is alittle background -
paul's has a bachelor's degree in biochemistry he graduated with first class honours, he then went on to get his master's degree in pharmaclogy specializing in the study of receptor sites and their function, his work as been published in medical journals throughout the world and has had articles appear in over 200 magazines on various aspects of steriod use and their application to bodybuilders, top pro's ask Paul for advice on stacks and cycles just to name one was Dorain Y who was under Paul's arm durring his Olympia battles,

now his methord is only for the advanced bodybuilder and the dosages are very extreme i am talking about dosages what some people would take in a week taking in a day, but at this level i believe and i know short cycles as little as 30 days work, "something magical happens" Paul told me when your on 5grams a week, your receptors sites up-regulate and you respond unbelieveably, you can put on 1lb a day for 18 days, ive seen it and done it,
now this will shock a few people but even using long ester with this method works aswell as short acting compounds, lets be honest with ourselves weather your on a 8wk or 20wk cycle when do see most of the gains appear? why stay on long cycles damaging your body with sides? and we all know how hard it is to recover from long heavy cycles, your body gets use to anything you put in it over time and will compensate, ive done every type of cycling and one of the best was short cycles for 30 days heavy, off period for 21-25 days and repeat the process, it far better on your system for recovery and building muscle tissue, its impossible to keep gaining new muscle for long periods like 14-20weeks,

The body can gain large tissue gains for short periods of time but it cant keep maintaining this for weeks on end, it is possible to gain a 1lb a day for 3 wks but it cant for lets say 14 weeks , this is nature and we can learn from it,if your advanced enough and you know how to combat the side effects this is amazing way to push yourself past any sticking point into new growth, if you have the right enviroment for the body it will have rapid fast growth which can be otained by this methord,

also its not just the gear and cycling what makes this work its the training and diet what comes with this method which also helps a great deal in the process, you can mentaly get ready for this methord and put 100% into everything 24hr dedication for 30 days but impossible to keep this type of intensity up for weeks on end, alot of pro's use this method and i could chat all day on various other things concerning this type of cycling but i would like to hear peoples experiences who have used this or know anyone who has,

[Mesomorphyl]

Actually the pro's never "Really" stop... they cruise and use other anabolic or anti-catabolic compounds. Right? They just bump and lower doses, correct?

PS. you already know how I feel.

[Booz]

i have only used 12-24 week cyles the 24 bein the once,so i for one would like to hear others responces who have run the short but high dose method!!

[marcus300]

Actually the pro's never "Really" stop... they cruise and use other anabolic or anti-catabolic compounds. Right? They just bump and lower doses, correct?

PS. you already know how I feel.

yes i know alot of pro's stay on all year round but there are also many who use this method also,
when you use gear for long periods of time you body gets use to it the end result is you have to keep increasing the amount each time and even bridge between cycles just to remaian the same as when you was off gear, it gets harder and harder to build new muscle tissue because of this process, ive spoken to Paul and top level pro's who have said its a far better way of cycling it builds muscle and you recover alot easier,
people get blinkered into thinking long cycles are the key,its not always the answer trust me as you get more experience you will understand about how hard it is to recovery and keep building new muscle, it should be looked at and not swept under the carpet, alot of BB's are doing this method at top level

[vitor]

Ive only run a short cyles once, but I really liked it. tren 100mgs ed+ winstrol 100mgs ed for two weeks. I gained and kept 4-5 pounds of pure muscle(maybe not a massive gain, but for only two weeks the gains were greate), and hpta was back to normal very quikly. I will do more of this kind of cycling in the future. The days of 14 weeks on test e. type of cycling is dead and gone for me! If I was going to run long cycles again it would consist of compounds like primo/eq/proviron /t-bol/winny and var, aas that will only supress you, but not shut you down!

[Mesomorphyl]

trust me as you get more experience you will understand about how hard it is to recovery and keep building new muscle

You are right I have done one 4 weeker and seemingly lost most during pct, that is why I have not tried it again. As I said before those short bursts are followed with a cruise or gh/slin combo to retain, so there is not really an off or recovery. Or am I wrong about that? How many weeks before hitting a cycle again? I have only done 8 longer cycles starting at 8 weeks to a normal of 12-14 and have been on as long as 22. I personally did better on retaining on the longer cycles. So because of my experience or as you say lack thereof I have formed an educated and self evaluated opinion.

[Drummerboy]

i like this theory... thinking about it, i always gain most in the beginning... i think i may try a 4 week tren /prop/var 150/100/80 to see what happens.

[marcus300]

You are right I have done one 4 weeker and seemingly lost most during pct, that is why I have not tried it again. As I said before those short bursts are followed with a cruise or gh/slin combo to retain, so there is not really an off or recovery. Or am I wrong about that? How many weeks before hitting a cycle again? I have only done 8 longer cycles starting at 8 weeks to a normal of 12-14 and have been on as long as 22. I personally did better on retaining on the longer cycles. So because of my experience or as you say lack thereof I have formed an educated and self evaluated opinion.

i respect what your saying meso and i fully understand if it didnt work for you thats fine but am thinking your short cycle is nothing what i am talking about, i am talking about what you would use in a week in a day type of cycle, not just cutting down a 14 week cycle to 6-8 weeks, am talking about 30 days of very high intense cycling/training and diet, Paul was a legend on receptor sites and how they respond to gear, its worth a look,
all the best

[Mesomorphyl]

its worth a look,
all the best

I will revisit the idea, it always is worth a look. You just asked for experiences and I gave mine. This method is being discussed alot lately.

[marcus300]

I will revisit the idea, it always is worth a look. You just asked for experiences and I gave mine. This method is being discussed alot lately.

thanks for your input, please do take another look at this theory its not just cutting down the lenght of a long cycle its about very heavy short shock cycling, ive had so many PM'S on this subject this is why i have put a thread up so we all can discuss it,
am confident in this theory..

[Warrior]

I prefer to frontload heavy esters and then run the cycle 9-10 weeks...

But I never really heard much about large, sorry - HUGE, doses for short periods... sounds interesting and something I might try. But 5g's per week is way too much androgenic activity - it seems you'd have to have A LOT of muscle weight/receptor availability for that much to even get used without shaking the risk:benefit ratio to undesirable effects...

I wouldn't try it with more than 1500mg per week (I'd have to see a lot more supporting evidence before going toward 2g's in a short cycle) - but these days, I never usually cycle over a gram of total androgens per week while on...

Many believe longer cycles help to solidify your gains by giving the body enough time to set it's comfortable body weight to the new mass... assuming the body does seem to reach set points in bodyweight that it tries to maintain. The problem is that longer cycles are harder to recover from, and I do believe the body does try and regulate itself after a given period of time - such as increasing the amount of SHBG or via other endocrine or metabolic processes... the human body would never naturally expose itself to the amount of steroids that are typically self administered for performance reasons... so its not completely obsurd to think it would try and counter act the activity...

Might want to dig through this FULL abstract i posted at the end of this thread yesterday: Hypertrophy IS Dose Dependent

[marcus300]

I prefer to frontload heavy esters and then run the cycle 9-10 weeks...

But I never really heard much about large, sorry - HUGE, doses for short periods... sounds interesting and something I might try. But 5g's per week is way too much androgenic activity - it seems you'd have to have A LOT of muscle weight/receptor availability for that much to even get used without shaking the risk:benefit ratio to undesirable effects...

I wouldn't try it with more than 1500mg per week (I'd have to see a lot more supporting evidence before going toward 2g's in a short cycle) - but these days, I never usually cycle over a gram of total androgens per week while on...

Many believe longer cycles help to solidify your gains by giving the body enough time to set it's comfortable body weight to the new mass... assuming the body does seem to reach set points in bodyweight that it tries to maintain. The problem is that longer cycles are harder to recover from, and I do believe the body does try and regulate itself after a given period of time - such as increasing the amount of SHBG or via other endocrine or metabolic processes... the human body would never naturally expose itself to the amount of steroids that are typically self administered for performance reasons... so its not completely obsurd to think it would try and counter act the activity...

Might want to dig through this FULL abstract i posted at the end of this thread yesterday: Hypertrophy IS Dose Dependent

am not saying everybody should try 5 grms a week, the amount of gear depends on the individual and his history when designing this type of cycling, paul did his own research on bodybuilders at top level the results were amazing dorian said he was 5years ahead of the game its a shame Paul is no longer with us, all i am saying is try it and see for yourself but design the cycle for your bodys history,
with out doubt your body struggles to keep building new muscle tissue after years of long cycles and the recovery is harder still, we end up coasting and increasing the amounts all the time just to try and keep the edge, i value your imput but like ive said its worth a good look alot of top BB's are using this method with amazing results

[Rossosterone Nation]

This is a LONG discussion.

The body has a point of Muscular Homeostasis. As I discuss in my article "Overlapping Chemical Displacement", this point can be constantly RESET, by several different mechanisms--Most importantly, maintaining PITUITARY function even when testicular function is severely depressed, and OVERLAPPING chemicals at strategic points during your cycle.

It is one thing to GAIN--it is another thing to RETAIN your GAINS. One must approach anabolic steroid use with a scientific fervor.

Based on all variables that determine GAINS AND RETENTION of gains(Pituitary/testicular function, points of overlap during cycle, and selection of compounds/dosages/durations, one can conclude that:

#1) EXTREMELY Short cycles are ineffective, as they do not allow the body to RESET it's point of Muscular Homeostasis. Furthermore, they require FOOLISHLY LARGE DOSAGES, which is UNSAFE. Retention of gains is POOR.

#2.) EXTREMELY LONG cycles are ineffective as they inihibit BOTH--the PITUITARY and the TESTICLES too severely, which makes retention of gains post-cycle near impossible.

#3) Depending on the compounds/dosages/durations used, one can STRATEGICALLY minimize BOTH--PITUITARY and TESTICULAR supression through the various mechanisms discussed above, allowing for SIGNIFICANTLY greater retention of gains post cycle.

**HCG is ESSENTIAL!!**



[R]

[marcus300]

This is a LONG discussion.

The body has a point of Muscular Homesostasis. As I discuss in my article "Overlapping Chemical Displacement", this point can be constantly RESET, by several different mechanisms--Most importantly, maintaining PITUITARY function even when testicular function is severely depressed, and OVERLAPPING chemicals at strategic points during your cycle.

It is one thing to GAIN--it is another thing to RETAIN your GAINS. One must approach anabolic steroid use with a scientific fervor.

Based on all variables that determine GAINS AND RETENTION of gains(Pituitary/testicular function, points of overlap during cycle, and selection of compounds/dosages/durations, one can conclude that:

#1) EXTREMELY Short cycles are ineffective, as they do not allow the body to RESET it's point of Muscular Homeostasis. Furthermore, they require FOOLISHLY LARGE DOSAGES, which is UNSAFE. Retention of gains is POOR.

#2.) EXTREMELY LONG cycles are ineffective as they inihibit BOTH--the PITUITARY and the TESTICLES too severely, which makes retention of gains post-cycle near impossible.

#3) Depending on the compounds/dosages/durations used, one can STRATEGICALLY minimize BOTH--PITUITARY and TESTICULAR supression through the various mechanisms discussed above, allowing for SIGNIFICANTLY greater retention of gains post cycle.

**HCG is ESSENTIAL!!**



[R]

all i can base this theory on is my own experiences,Paul' B, Dorian and many other bodybuilders i have been in contact with over the years, Paul had enormous knowledge on receptors sites and how our bodys reacts to steriod use in high dose /low dose's
results and my own experiences are what i base everything on not what it might say in a book, i disagree with no1, you can build hugh new muscle tissue on short periods, this is how humans grow even from birth, we have growth spuirts and it can be maintained, its not just gear its diet/training what goes hand in hand with this type of cycling, intense short cycles do work and can be maintained

[marcus300]

bump, lets keep the discussion going

[MASTER]

I may well try this at the end of next year, so i cant get 2 cycles in, since my other one is a 30 weeker. As for 5 grams as week i dont think so! Maybe 3gs or so, i definately think suspension or prop are the way to go though with this, I really cant see how deca or longer estered tests could be as effective, sure frontloading can work, but it still wont kick in as fast as suspension or prop. From what ive seen though, the 1lb per day probably is possible, your body cannot sustain this kind of anabolism for long though, as the principle of this technique is to flood your receptors and therefore the drugs will become ineffective very quickly, a friend of mine who uses these principles all the time, says he gains massively for 2 or 3 weeks, but after this time, gains slow down and stop very quickly. It should in theory be quite easy to recover from such a cycle, but the androgenic sides could be awful, people without considerable experience should adjust their doses down and all precautions to keep sides away should be used! Thanks for the information guys, it is very interesting, I think its one of those things that really has to be tried to draw a conclusion for it yourself.

[marcus300]

I may well try this at the end of next year, so i cant get 2 cycles in, since my other one is a 30 weeker. As for 5 grams as week i dont think so! Maybe 3gs or so, i definately think suspension or prop are the way to go though with this, I really cant see how deca or longer estered tests could be as effective, sure frontloading can work, but it still wont kick in as fast as suspension or prop. From what ive seen though, the 1lb per day probably is possible, your body cannot sustain this kind of anabolism for long though, as the principle of this technique is to flood your receptors and therefore the drugs will become ineffective very quickly, a friend of mine who uses these principles all the time, says he gains massively for 2 or 3 weeks, but after this time, gains slow down and stop very quickly. It should in theory be quite easy to recover from such a cycle, but the androgenic sides could be awful, people without considerable experience should adjust their doses down and all precautions to keep sides away should be used! Thanks for the information guys, it is very interesting, I think its one of those things that really has to be tried to draw a conclusion for it yourself.

with respect you should read all the threads on this one and Paul Borreson one, i am not saying use 5grams its down to your history,
also re-read about fast/long ester, one of the theorys is long esters for the first 10 days so then they are out at the end of the cycle, please re- read all the article the answers are there,

[MASTER]

with respect you should read all the threads on this one and Paul Borreson one, i am not saying use 5grams its down to your history,
also re-read about fast/long ester, one of the theorys is long esters for the first 10 days so then they are out at the end of the cycle, please re- read all the article the answers are there,

Ive read it all! I was talking about from my point of view, sure 5 grams for u or pinn, but 3 for me!

[marcus300]

Ive read it all! I was talking about from my point of view, sure 5 grams for u or pinn, but 3 for me!

yeh no problem JC,

[MASTER]

yeh no problem JC,

Yeh i just didnt want you to think I hadnt read what you posted, ive been a bit lazy with writing my posts recently!

[goose]

These are great books by paul.

http://www.steroiduniversity.com/

I can assure people these cycles work,they are Avant-Garde,but you must be open minded or maxed out your genetic ponetial to consider executing paul`s ideas.Great to have fresh ideas on this forum.In 06 I will be experimenting with 15 day cycles,some of paul`s earlier work,the idea is recovery is super swift, even if tren is used.


goose4............

goose4.....

[marcus300]

These are great books by paul.

http://www.steroiduniversity.com/

I can assure people these cycles work,they are Avant-Garde,but you must be open minded or maxed out your genetic ponetial to consider executing paul`s ideas.Great to have fresh ideas on this forum.In 06 I will be experimenting with 15 day cycles,some of paul`s earlier work,the idea is recovery is super swift, even if tren is used.


goose4............

goose4.....

afternoon goose, me personaly the 30 days are better than the 15day, i made alot more muscle and recovered that way, thanks for your imput

[Warrior]

Questions for those of you who have read his theories:

- Do you need to first follow some kind of receptor mapping idea to find what dose you should use?

- Is the gear best used with combinations of heavy and light esters - or all of one or the other?

- Does GH have to be used in this?

- Where else can I find extended articles explaining both the 15-day and 30-day cycles online... the steroiduniversity.com link does not work for me...

Thanks! This has me thinkin'... didn't Bill Roberts like this idea too? Only with smaller doses...

[marcus300]

Questions for those of you who have read his theories:

- Do you need to first follow some kind of receptor mapping idea to find what dose you should use?

- Is the gear best used with combinations of heavy and light esters - or all of one or the other?

- Does GH have to be used in this?

- Where else can I find extended articles explaining both the 15-day and 30-day cycles online... the steroiduniversity.com link does not work for me...

Thanks! This has me thinkin'... didn't Bill Roberts like this idea too? Only with smaller doses...

Warrior, there are many different ways of using this theory, you can use long esters or short or a combinations of both, i have tried many and the one which i like best is the long ester for the first 10 days then switch followed for the next 10 days by others compounds then fast for the last 10 days, its amazing results and recovery is no problem and once you have found out what dosage you should use you dont have to keep inceasing it, you need to look back at your cycles you have used and see what dose you have been using in a week of the main test which have given results, this will give an idea to what dose is needed,
if you want an example of one of paul's course i will post it for you,
yes he took hgh but in a different way took it in spuirts just like babys produce it, he aso primed his whole body to respond to this 30 day stack,
and infact with such an intense way of training after the 30 days your body is craving to grow and can produce even more gains in the off period while you do maintenance training for fully recover the body,

[Xtralarg]

bump

[Bossman]

This short cycle/shock cycle sounds very similar to what L Rea writes about in "Building a Perfect Beast". His dosing protocol samples vary but some are as high as 1000 total mg per day of aas. Cycles are short at 30 days with a full PCT regimine of about the same. He claims, with case study, that you will retain more and recover quicker with short cycles and more successful cycles can be run in one year. I have a contest coming up in the Spring so don't want to try anything new but I will try a short cycle sometime in '06.

[marcus300]

This short cycle/shock cycle sounds very similar to what L Rea writes about in "Building a Perfect Beast". His dosing protocol samples vary but some are as high as 1000 total mg per day of aas. Cycles are short at 30 days with a full PCT regimine of about the same. He claims, with case study, that you will retain more and recover quicker with short cycles and more successful cycles can be run in one year. I have a contest coming up in the Spring so don't want to try anything new but I will try a short cycle sometime in '06.

you know it makes sense, give it a go
thanks for your imput

[GetHugeDieTrying]

I may well try this at the end of next year, so i cant get 2 cycles in, since my other one is a 30 weeker. As for 5 grams as week i dont think so! Maybe 3gs or so, i definately think suspension or prop are the way to go though with this, I really cant see how deca or longer estered tests could be as effective, sure frontloading can work, but it still wont kick in as fast as suspension or prop. From what ive seen though, the 1lb per day probably is possible, your body cannot sustain this kind of anabolism for long though, as the principle of this technique is to flood your receptors and therefore the drugs will become ineffective very quickly, a friend of mine who uses these principles all the time, says he gains massively for 2 or 3 weeks, but after this time, gains slow down and stop very quickly. It should in theory be quite easy to recover from such a cycle, but the androgenic sides could be awful, people without considerable experience should adjust their doses down and all precautions to keep sides away should be used! Thanks for the information guys, it is very interesting, I think its one of those things that really has to be tried to draw a conclusion for it yourself.

fast acting deca mang.

[thermodave]

Marcus, give us an example of the gear you would use and for how long, and the PCT protocol you'd follow.

[marcus300]

Marcus, give us an example of the gear you would use and for how long, and the PCT protocol you'd follow.

well am just sorting a cycle out and it is more or less something like this, it will change abit but will give you an idea what i would use,
days 1-10 testex (cyp) 500mg
days 11-20 400mg primo+ 500mg prop
days 21-30 150mg winstrol + 500mg prop
HGH 4 days on 8ius 4 days off
t4
nolva 40mg
b6 200mg

will be messing around with a few more compounds yet but thats roughly

[Toenail Juice Z]

This is nothing new in Europe. All competing top level bodybuilders I know do this.

Not only is it a bit more cost effective, but it's also more productive IMO.

[marcus300]

This is nothing new in Europe. All competing top level bodybuilders I know do this.

Not only is it a bit more cost effective, but it's also more productive IMO.

Thankyou Toenail, i get abit frustrated trying to get this across sometimes, there are a few who know what this type of cycling can do and they are top level, people should be more open minded there are more than one or two ways of cycling,
thanks for your comment

[Toenail Juice Z]

My pleasure...

I'm only stating the facts anyhow!

[Pinnacle]

Ive read it all! I was talking about from my point of view, sure 5 grams for u or pinn, but 3 for me!

HAHA....that's exactly the amount I'm about to run.Great guess bro!

[MASTER]

HAHA....that's exactly the amount I'm about to run.Great guess bro!

Tee hee, u nutter roidasaurus!

[Warrior]

Thankyou Toenail, i get abit frustrated trying to get this across sometimes, there are a few who know what this type of cycling can do and they are top level, people should be more open minded there are more than one or two ways of cycling,
thanks for your comment

Understand that you are giving "medical" advice on the Net. For me to not be skeptical I need more supporting reads - like links to articles by Paul or other authors/researchers...

If someone could come on the Net and tell everyone they should run 10 grams of testosterone per week for 24 week cycles 'cause "thats what the pros do" - and every one said, "okay... sounds good to me!" then you should be frusterated at how gullable and impressionable people are on the Net...

I have never heard of this type of steroid cycling before - but I am interested in more reading on it...

[BajanBastard]

"paul has a bachelor's degree in biochemistry he graduated with first class honours, he then went on to get his master's degree in pharmaclogy specializing in the study of receptor sites and their function,

his work as been published in medical journals throughout the world and has had articles appear in over 200 magazines on various aspects of steriod use and their application to bodybuilders

For a man who has all these credentials (impressive to say the least) he sure as hell got AAS binding affinities and how the androgen receptor works dead wrong. Perhaps he missed that class?


Can i see these 'medical juornals'? Muscle mag doesn't count.

[marcus300]

Understand that you are giving "medical" advice on the Net. For me to not be skeptical I need more supporting reads - like links to articles by Paul or other authors/researchers...

If someone could come on the Net and tell everyone they should run 10 grams of testosterone per week for 24 week cycles 'cause "thats what the pros do" - and every one said, "okay... sounds good to me!" then you should be frusterated at how gullable and impressionable people are on the Net...

I have never heard of this type of steroid cycling before - but I am interested in more reading on it...

Let me try to explain it alittle better for you,
i am not giving medical advice, all am saying is that short heavy cycles work ive done them and alot of top pro's aswell,they might not be for everyone just like long cycles arent for everyone, but in bodybuilding we should look and learn and not just dismiss it, i am NOT saying use 10grams of test, the amount you should use depends on your cycle history and previous stacks, i thought that was obvious,
over the 17yrs ive been in the game all i can give is my experiences what worked for me, there is no black and white when it comes down to chemicals and the body, experience is priceless, do a search on Borresons work or buy his books or videos they are worth a read,

[BUYLONGTERM]

I've done both long cycles ( well over a year) and short cycles, and my personal experience says that anything over 18 weeks is a waste and not worth the risks. My cholesterol was out of control. I will NEVER do a cycle over 16 weeks again. I did NOT see that great of benefits over 16-18 weeks. I even upped the doses to 2g a week. I ran just about everything during that time frame and still wasn't impressed.

[marcus300]

I've done both long cycles ( well over a year) and short cycles, and my personal experience says that anything over 18 weeks is a waste and not worth the risks. My cholesterol was out of control. I will NEVER do a cycle over 16 weeks again. I did NOT see that great of benefits over 16-18 weeks. I even upped the doses to 2g a week. I ran just about everything during that time frame and still wasn't impressed.

I also found it hard to recover after long cycles even the 12-14weeks one as i got older, i had to keep upping the dose to try and get something from them, but since ive gone back to very short cycles at a high does ive experienced further gains,