Will I keep much from test only?

**Sust Man** · 05-11-2006, 05:53 PM

I have always had good results from sust only cycles, but quite honestly I'm not sure if I kept my gains or not (I would usually jump back on after 3 months). I have tried deca /test and eq/test, and did not like either as both shut me down hard afterwards. Should I throw in something like winny at the end, or is that not going to help?

**Liftnainez** · 05-11-2006, 06:21 PM

winny will not help you recover faster. A proper PCT which includes intense but not to long training sessions and a good diet.. that will help your recovery.. you can also add some trib and zma- works for some... what really throws me off is this: you dont know if you kept your gains? What does that mean? It sounds that u just non stop cycle- get off loose it and just cycle again... what are your stats anyway???

**joshr** · 05-11-2006, 06:25 PM

you should probably chill for a while inmy opinion like ha said a proper pct will help the shut downs and only waiting 3 months to get back on sounds a little dangerous to me just be careful man you could really hurt yourself

**Sust Man** · 05-11-2006, 06:57 PM

Originally Posted by Liftnainez

winny will not help you recover faster. A proper PCT which includes intense but not to long training sessions and a good diet.. that will help your recovery.. you can also add some trib and zma- works for some... what really throws me off is this: you dont know if you kept your gains? What does that mean? It sounds that u just non stop cycle- get off loose it and just cycle again... what are your stats anyway???

Maybe you didn't understand my question. When you look at the steroid effectiveness chart on this site under "keep gains", test has one star and compounds like deca have 3 or 4 stars. I understand that a test only cycle is not as good for keeping gains as a test/deca cycle (I am not even talking about the pct aspect of it). By not being sure if I kept my gains means that I did keep most of them until the next cycle (about 3-4 months off cycle), but who knows if I would have lost more had I been off cycle for say, 10 months.

**Sust Man** · 05-11-2006, 07:00 PM

Originally Posted by joshr

you should probably chill for a while inmy opinion like ha said a proper pct will help the shut downs and only waiting 3 months to get back on sounds a little dangerous to me just be careful man you could really hurt yourself

I'm not sure I understand the danger in taking 3 months off of a cycle. Time on = time off (at least), so if I was on sus for 10 weeks, than my time off equals more than my time on. By the way, I have been clean for 9 months now, and my stats are 6'3", 176, 6%BF.

**love 2 lift** · 05-11-2006, 10:09 PM

I believe I kept the most gains after a cycle from eating right and doing a proper PCT.

**HORSE~** · 05-11-2006, 10:24 PM

Damn 6'3" 176lb 6%BF are you takeing in the proper amount of protein carb's and cal's.
I would think with A proper deit and training you could up the LB's.

Out of curiosity what was your weight before your first cycle and how much did you gain from each cycle to get where you are now.

**Tren Bull** · 05-12-2006, 12:00 AM

Originally Posted by Sust Man

I have always had good results from sust only cycles, but quite honestly I'm not sure if I kept my gains or not (I would usually jump back on after 3 months). I have tried deca/test and eq/test, and did not like either as both shut me down hard afterwards. Should I throw in something like winny at the end, or is that not going to help?

wini will help, but honestly, i never lost any gains off a test only cycle. have you tried running clen during pct?

**Liftnainez** · 05-12-2006, 12:07 AM

If you cant keep gains with just test why would you with winny added.. it might harden you up at the end but you stil need to work to hold your achieved physique.. ( good pct, intense training, diet..)

**marcus300** · 05-12-2006, 12:26 AM

Test builds muscle tissue, gains are kept by proper pct,DIET and training

**Warrior** · 05-12-2006, 12:33 AM

Originally Posted by marcus300

Test builds muscle tissue, gains are kept by proper pct,DIET and training

Exactly - adding testosterone -only to a solid training and diet cycle will not only add to your gains for that training cycle but they are deffinitly keepable if you come off correctly. You have to fight for your strength, adjust your diet for the new bodyweight and muscle mass and recover your endogenous androgen production as fast as possible...

**Sust Man** · 05-12-2006, 02:20 AM

Thank you everyone for your input. So I guess pct and diet are more important for keeping gains than the type of steroid used? I am just wondering, what does the "keep gains" heading in the steroids profile mean then? I came off my last cycle at 193, and after a few months, I still weighed 190. You would think that after a few months, everything I had left would be kept. I somehow got down to 176 5 months later, and I can't seem to get it back. It's as if my body was made for this weight or something. The only good thing is that my bf is probably about 5% lower than it was 9 months ago, and my strength is within around 85% of post cycle as well.

**Warrior** · 05-12-2006, 02:41 AM

Originally Posted by Sust Man

Thank you everyone for your input. So I guess pct and diet are more important for keeping gains than the type of steroid used? I am just wondering, what does the "keep gains" heading in the steroids profile mean then? I came off my last cycle at 193, and after a few months, I still weighed 190. You would think that after a few months, everything I had left would be kept. I somehow got down to 176 5 months later, and I can't seem to get it back. It's as if my body was made for this weight or something. The only good thing is that my bf is probably about 5% lower than it was 9 months ago, and my strength is within around 85% of post cycle as well.

First of all - bodyfat at 5 percent lower is a nice outcome when maintaining the same weight... or losing weight for that matter since you would be losing much more fat then muscle if you did drop 5 percent. Muscle is a power horse - it is more metabolically active than fat and will increase your caloric requirements.

5 months later you dropped from 190 to 176? This must be a poor diet and training routine. If you keep training at the 176 level - you can not expect to reach or maintain 190... or 200... especially naturally. Make sure you are not overtraining and your split is locked on... read some good training techniques and start experimenting with what give you a progresive approach to your workouts. Look at your diet from a real critical eye - write it all down one day and then look at it or post it here - you need the correct amount of bricks and the right masonry to build your house.

**marcus300** · 05-12-2006, 02:46 AM

Originally Posted by Warrior

First of all - bodyfat at 5 percent lower is a nice outcome when maintaining the same weight... or losing weight for that matter since you would be losing much more fat then muscle if you did drop 5 percent. Muscle is a power horse - it is more metabolically active than fat and will increase your caloric requirements.

5 months later you dropped from 190 to 176? This must be a poor diet and training routine. If you keep training at the 176 level - you can not expect to reach or maintain 190... or 200... especially naturally. Make sure you are not overtraining and your split is locked on... read some good training techniques and start experimenting with what give you a progresive approach to your workouts. Look at your diet from a real critical eye - write it all down one day and then look at it or post it here - you need the correct amount of bricks and the right masonry to build your house.

agreed

**vitor** · 05-12-2006, 05:01 AM

How much you keep from a cycle depends on how far you are from your genetic limit.

Someone who takes a cycle, and is way below hes natrual limit, can keep everything...

Someone who is over hes genetic limit, will eventually loose the muscle until, he goes back to hes natrual limit, if he stays clean long enough.

But if someone cycles repeatly over the year, he can stay alot bigger than he ever could have achived natrually, ofcourse... Thats why I cycle often.

**marcus300** · 05-12-2006, 05:06 AM

So vitor, are you saying if someone is over his limit he cant maintain the new muscle tissue when they come off with his diet?

**vitor** · 05-12-2006, 05:29 AM

Originally Posted by marcus300

So vitor, are you saying if someone is over his limit he cant maintain the new muscle tissue when they come off with his diet?

IMO He can keep it for a while. But if he stays natrual, and never uses steroids again, he cant maintain alot more muscle than hes genetics would allow, with natrual hormone levels.

Maybe its possible to push your natrual limit a bit futher. I dont really see how steroid -gains could be permenent, unless you continue to cycle...

What do you think?

**marcus300** · 05-12-2006, 05:47 AM

Originally Posted by vitor

IMO He can keep it for a while. But if he stays natrual, and never uses steroids again, he cant maintain alot more muscle than hes genetics would allow, with natrual hormone levels.

Maybe its possible to push your natrual limit a bit futher. I dont really see how steroid -gains could be permenent, unless you continue to cycle...

What do you think?

Well vitor i think its all down to the individuals lifestyle, we all know you cant build muscle tissue like you can on AAS but i feel you can maintain the new muscle tissue with proper diet and training and lifestyle,

There are many naturally substances which help promote test and if you have a very clean lifestyle i think you can still build or even just maintain what you have built,

If the BB is going to go back to eating like a 200lb man and stop going to the gym, he will go back down to that weight what his limit is, but if he maintains his diet with the right amount of pro/carbs/fats to maintain his bodyweight and muscle mass, i feel it can be done but at a lot of a slower pace than when he was taking AAS,

I do feel you can push the natural limit to new growth if the right things are in place, healthy lifestyle, diet,intense training program, plenty of rest and proper supplementation, this would be at a slower rate because the body just wont let you build that much muscle tissue, its a slow process.

**vitor** · 05-12-2006, 05:57 AM

Originally Posted by marcus300

Well vitor i think its all down to the individuals lifestyle, we all know you cant build muscle tissue like you can on AAS but i feel you can maintain the new muscle tissue with proper diet and training and lifestyle,

There are many naturally substances which help promote test and if you have a very clean lifestyle i think you can still build or even just maintain what you have built,

If the BB is going to go back to eating like a 200lb man and stop going to the gym, he will go back down to that weight what his limit is, but if he maintains his diet with the right amount of pro/carbs/fats to maintain his bodyweight and muscle mass, i feel it can be done but at a lot of a slower pace than when he was taking AAS,

I do feel you can push the natural limit to new growth if the right things are in place, healthy lifestyle, diet,intense training program, plenty of rest and proper supplementation, this would be at a slower rate because the body just wont let you build that much muscle tissue, its a slow process.

Agreed. I think thats thrue to a degree...

But if someone like Ronnie or Jay, had never used drugs agains, they wouldnt be able to stay at that size. Even if diet, traning, live-style and supplementation where all spot on.

With natrual hormone-levels, your body can only keep so much, imho.

**pmorris** · 05-12-2006, 06:00 AM

Originally Posted by Sust Man

Maybe you didn't understand my question. When you look at the steroid effectiveness chart on this site under "keep gains", test has one star and compounds like deca have 3 or 4 stars. I understand that a test only cycle is not as good for keeping gains as a test/deca cycle (I am not even talking about the pct aspect of it). By not being sure if I kept my gains means that I did keep most of them until the next cycle (about 3-4 months off cycle), but who knows if I would have lost more had I been off cycle for say, 10 months.

that chart is old and not correct..

**marcus300** · 05-12-2006, 06:05 AM

Originally Posted by vitor

Agreed. I think thats thrue to a degree...

But if someone like Ronnie or Jay, had never used drugs agains, they wouldn't be able to stay at that size. Even if diet, training, live-style and supplementation where all spot on.

With natural hormone-levels, your body can only keep so much, imho.

lol, hold on a minute,

i never said Ronnie or Jay, am talking about the more average user who as put on some nice size from a few cycles,

if big Ron and Jay stopped taking what they taking, drug company's would go bust, the top 2 in the world is an exception,

Interesting debate vitor

, i do have a example of someone who as not used AAS for over 14months now and still hasn't lost any size, infact he as put alittle on,

suppose its down to what kind of muscle tissue your trying to keep and how healthy your lifestyle is.

**fitguy** · 05-12-2006, 06:29 AM

Originally Posted by Tren Bull

wini will help, but honestly, i never lost any gains off a test only cycle. have you tried running clen during pct?

i was thinking of using clen or maybe albeutrol during pct just as an anticatabolic but not to loose fat ,what are your experiences with the drug ?

**Sust Man** · 05-12-2006, 03:46 PM

Well, I did weigh about 145 at 6'3" about 7 years ago, and have been able to build up to 175 naturally with proper diet and lifting. So, even though my height and weight don't seem too impressive, I have come a long way naturally over the years. My diet and training regime has basically not changed since my cycling days, with the exception of less junk food (I do change up my routines of course). I eat every two hours, with around 270g protein per day and 3500 calories. I could get more detailed on my diet and training regime, but I don't want to bore everyone with a half a page of stats.

**Sust Man** · 05-12-2006, 03:54 PM

Originally Posted by fitguy

i was thinking of using clen or maybe albeutrol during pct just as an anticatabolic but not to loose fat ,what are your experiences with the drug ?

I have included clen with every pct. I like it. There are so many variables that go with keeping gains post cycle that it is tough to say whether it has helped. It is cheap enough, though, that I usually just run in anyway. Some people say it is anticatabolic, and some(most) say that it is not.

**fitguy** · 05-12-2006, 03:57 PM

Originally Posted by Sust Man

I have included clen with every pct. I like it. There are so many variables that go with keeping gains post cycle that it is tough to say whether it has helped. It is cheap enough, though, that I usually just run in anyway. Some people say it is anticatabolic, and some(most) say that it is not.

what were your dose and for how long do you usually run it ? also did you ever try albeutrol ,its supposed to increase protein synthesis..

**Sust Man** · 05-12-2006, 09:06 PM

I have never tried it, all I know is that it is kinda the US version of clen I think. Maybe has a different half life too? I am unsure. But with the clen, I would start out at around 40-60mcg on the first day. Each day I would assess my tolerance and up the dose by 20mcg if I was feeling less shaky than the day before. Usually, by the 14th day, I am up to around 220mcg. That is when I stop and switch to the ECA. Do a search for "clenbuterol handbook," as that will teach you everything you need to know.

**fitguy** · 05-13-2006, 04:08 AM

Originally Posted by Sust Man

I have never tried it, all I know is that it is kinda the US version of clen I think. Maybe has a different half life too? I am unsure. But with the clen, I would start out at around 40-60mcg on the first day. Each day I would assess my tolerance and up the dose by 20mcg if I was feeling less shaky than the day before. Usually, by the 14th day, I am up to around 220mcg. That is when I stop and switch to the ECA. Do a search for "clenbuterol handbook," as that will teach you everything you need to know.

isnt that a high dose ,i am looking to get the anticatabolic effects of clen and not the fat loss effects..

**cfiler** · 05-13-2006, 09:49 AM

Originally Posted by Sust Man

I have never tried it, all I know is that it is kinda the US version of clen I think. Maybe has a different half life too? I am unsure. But with the clen, I would start out at around 40-60mcg on the first day. Each day I would assess my tolerance and up the dose by 20mcg if I was feeling less shaky than the day before. Usually, by the 14th day, I am up to around 220mcg. That is when I stop and switch to the ECA. Do a search for "clenbuterol handbook," as that will teach you everything you need to know.

That's for fat loss, and that cycle is outdated. Clen and ECA both use the same beta receptors, so using both back to back will burn out the beta receptors. Best for fat loss is two weeks on, two weeks off.

I don't remeber off hand what the dosage of clen in PCT, but it is a small dosage, like 40-60... Hoepfully someone knows the answer and can post.

**fitguy** · 05-13-2006, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by cfiler

That's for fat loss, and that cycle is outdated. Clen and ECA both use the same beta receptors, so using both back to back will burn out the beta receptors. Best for fat loss is two weeks on, two weeks off.

I don't remeber off hand what the dosage of clen in PCT, but it is a small dosage, like 40-60... Hoepfully someone knows the answer and can post.

yeah i am looking for the anticatabolic effect of clen more than fat loss..

**Sust Man** · 05-14-2006, 12:50 AM

Sorry, haven't done clen in a while, so I didn't know the ECA thing was outdated. I would assume that if you did 40-60mcg every day and only got the shakes for the first few days, that it would be inneffective after that. I doesn't make sense to me that after your tolerance builds up, you would quit getting the shakes/burning fat, but you would still have the anticatabolic affect. Correct me if I'm wrong, but just my theory.