finasteride: effects on overall body composition

[Alpine]

We all know that DHT is responsible for aggravating MPB. And by now many of us have come to realize DHT isn’t so bad and serves a purpose besides just causing hair loss.

What I’m concerned with in this post how long-term finasteride use effects overall body composition. That is, lean muscle vs body fat and also how it effects lean muscle gains.

While DHT is a much stronger androgen than Testosterone it still has less (musch less) of an effect on skeletal muscle than Testosterone does. From what I have read DHT is significantly weaker than Test in terms of promoting lean muscle. As long as your Test is normal/high you should have no issues gaining and keeping lean muscle.

Still, we have many anecdotal reports of people claiming finasteride hindered gains or degraded overall quality of body composition. I have seen reports of people saying finasteride should not be used when trying to get very lean because it makes it harder to reduce body fat. Some even go as far as to say that it promotes body fat. It’s true that DHT is somewhat of a natural ant-estrogen within the body. It does this through a few numerous pathways and this why some may experience gyno on finasteride. Many critics of finasteride say it shouldn’t be taken at all. They say the incidence of sides and permanaent sexual effects is much more common that Merck likes to admit. Swale, a notable medical voice with special experience, has been very vocal in an effort to dissuade people from using it.

Is there any solid science or evidence that shows DHT reduction leads to increased body fat? I’m not aware of any studies in regard to how it effects body composition. I don’t like the idea of reducing DHT but it does help with MPB. I took finasteride for roughly 2 years with no major side effects to speak of. However, there are MANY sides attributed to its use. They seem to increase as one gets older. Perhaps the sexual side effects are much more noticeable as reach your 30’s. I consider myself lucky but I have noticed a gradual increase in hair loss since I stopped taking it. I seemed to have slightly easier time depositing abdominal fat during my time on finasteride. During Tren use I also noticed very mild gyno for the first time. I have read that the effects of low DHT (and the loss of its estrogen antagonism) paired with progesterone can often be trouble. We all know that estrogen + progesterone can lead to bad things. This was the only time I ever experienced any type of gyno activity. This leads me to think if using finasteride with Tren or Superdrol you should be particularly careful.

I’m willing to go back on finasteride for a few more years (maybe until Mid 30’s) if I become confident that it doesn’t have a negative impact on body composition. I stopped taking it due to recent efforts to become very lean. What are your opinions on finasteride and body composition? Do you think it promotes fat gain or simply slows lean out? I would like to hear from some of you who have taken finasteride long-term and its perceived effects on your composition and any sides you may have had.

Thanks in advance.

[Seattle Junk]

Very interesting and plausible. I did think of this in the past on how DHT inhibitors may promote more free estrogen possibily. I've read that 5-ar inhibitors suppose to increase the amount of free testosterone

[Alpine]

Im looking for any physiological/hormonal reason why it would tend to make you "fatter" or perhaps make you deposit abdominal fat easier. Perhaps some of the more well read members can chime in on this aspect. I think its clear to some it may soften you a little in terms of muscle hardness.

I dont think its impossible to get lean or stay lean on it. I'm just wondering if there are any underlying reasons why it could be detrimental to a lean muscular physique. Some report it has no effect while others say they get fatter especially with abdominal fat when on it.

[*Alex*]

i have been taking finasteride for 4 month now ED, i'm not cycling yet and havent seen any abnormal fat deposits in my body! clean diet and cardio is going to lean you out, and i dont care how much finasteride you are taking! peace,

[D-Money]

The original use for finasteride was for the reduction or slowing of balding patterns in men that is typically associated with DHT. Finasteride is a DHT blocker and can be taken orally. DHT is the evil conversion of testosterone into a very androgenic natural steroid that often causes balding in men, but with finasteride, this can be limited if not somewhat reversed. It has been shown to cause a negative effect on sex drive, this theory can be tested on lab rats to improve the concept. All balding patterns can be seen on older rats and tested for reversal.

It's important to understand that even though testosterone is the active androgen in muscle, and DHT exhibits relatively little direct anabolic effects on muscle in men, DHT is still very important for the full performance enhancement effects from testosterone. What I specifically mean here are the effects of DHT on the central nervous system that lead to increased neurological efficiency (strength), and increased resistance to psychological and physical stress—not to mention optimal sexual function and libido.

I have heard several reports of individuals who have stacked testosterone with Proscar (a 5-AR inhibitor) and have noticed significantly reduced performance enhancement effects. We know it couldn't be due to the inhibition of the direct anabolic activity of testosterone on muscle anabolism. Most likely it is due to the reduction of androgenic effects in other parts of the body that contribute to the ergogenic effects. Specifically the CNS, which is stimulated by androgens to increase neural output leading to greater strength and greater recoverability. Another possibility is a reduction in the production of androgen dependent liver growth factors (such as IGF-1), since DHT is an important androgen in the liver.

Anti-Estrogen Effects Of DHT

One important function of DHT in the body that does not get much discussion is its antagonism of estrogen. Some men that take Proscar learn this the hard way—by developing a case of gynecomastia . By reducing DHT's protection against estrogen in the body, thes men have fallen victim to its worst side effect bitch tits.

How does DHT protect against estrogen? There are at least three ways that this likely occurs. First of all, DHT directly inhibits estrogens activity on tissues. It either does this by acting as a competitive antagonist to the estrogen receptor or by decreasing estrogen-induced RNA transcription at a point subsequent to estrogen receptor binding.

Second ofall, DHT and its metabolites have been shown to directly block the production of estrogens from androgens by inhibiting the activity of the aromatase enzyme. The studies done in breast tissue showed that DHT, androsterone, and 5alpha-androstandione are potent inhibitors of the formation of estrone from androstenedione. 5alpha-androstandione was shown to be the most potent, while androsterone was the least.

Lastly, DHT acts on the hypothalamus/pituitary to decrease the secretion of gonadotropins. By decreasing the secretion of gonadotropins you decrease the production of the raw materials for estrogen production testosterone and androstenedione (DHT itself cannot aromatize into estrogens). This property of DHT comes into particular utility when it is administered exogenously.

My advice: keep dosage below at.05mg everyday or so.

[Alpine]

Nice cut and paste!

For one, it was orginally designed and used for prostate treatment. Later is was used and marketed for hair when its effectiveness was realized.

As for estrogen related issues, well its not that simple. I was thinking along the lines of: more estrogen could only mean more fat. Much of the feedback Ive gotten heads toward that direction. A lot of us tend to think this way. DHT and Estrogen are demonized. But Im not sure its that simple. Everything is there for a reason. The delicate balance of the system is no evolutionary accident. Im sure many of you are familiar with this study.

J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2005 Jun;90(6):3592-9.

Estrogen supplementation reduces whole body leucine and carbohydrate oxidation and increases lipid oxidation in men during endurance exercise.

Hamadeh MJ, Devries MC, Tarnopolsky MA.

Department of Pediatrics and Medicine, McMaster University Medical Center, 1200 Main Street West, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada L8N 3Z5.

Healthy active men exhibit higher rates of carbohydrate (CHO) and leucine oxidation and lower rates of lipid oxidation compared with their female counterparts both at rest and during moderate intensity endurance exercise. We postulated that this reduced dependence on amino acids as a fuel source in women was due to the female sex hormone estrogen. In a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled, cross-over design, we investigated the effect of supplementing 12 recreationally active men with estrogen on whole body substrate oxidation and leucine kinetics at rest and during moderate intensity endurance exercise. Subjects cycled for 90 min at an intensity of 65% maximum O(2) consumption after 8 d of either estrogen supplementation (2 mg 17beta-estradiol/d) or placebo (polycose). After a 2-wk washout period, they repeated the test after 8 d of the alternate treatment. On the test day, after a primed continuous infusion of l-[(13)C]leucine, O(2) consumption, CO(2) production, steady-state breath (13)CO(2), and plasma alpha-[(13)C]ketoisocaproate enrichments were measured at rest and at 60, 75, and 90 min during exercise in the postabsorptive state. Exercise increased energy expenditure more than 5-fold, CHO oxidation more than 6-fold, lipid oxidation more than 4-fold, and leucine oxidation 2.2-fold (all P < 0.0001), whereas it decreased the ratio of lipid to CHO oxidation by 50-70% (P = 0.003) compared with values at rest. Estrogen supplementation decreased respiratory exchange ratio during exercise (P = 0.03). Estrogen supplementation significantly decreased CHO oxidation by 5-16% (P = 0.04) and leucine oxidation by 16% (P = 0.01), whereas it significantly increased lipid oxidation by 22-44% (P = 0.024) at rest and during exercise. We conclude that estrogen influences fuel source selection at rest and during endurance exercise in recreationally active men, characterized by a reduced dependence on amino acids and CHO and an increased reliance on lipids as a fuel source.

As you can see this doesnt serve to clarify the situation. Obviously nobody is going to bump e levels in an attempt to lose fat either. It just shows that we really know SHIT and we are messing with a very complex system of checks and balances. Please dont post random cut and paste horseshit from the net (or some guru). Im looking for someone with some knowledge greater than mine on this subject. This is another reason why you CLOWNS shouldnt DECIMATE your estrogen levels with all the potent AI's and stuff we have out there. All these god damn ATD otc anti estrogens crack me up too. PCT = nolva and HCG (if really shut down hard). ATD is what happens when you let marketing give you your supplement advice. We have 15 year olds taking ancient rejected orals (that are now new legal "prohormones") and then slamming some AI's alone.