whats the diff between

[briansauras]

TOREMIFENE CITRATE and TAMOXIFEN CITRATE(nolva)?

[lifterjaydawg]

bump

[C_Bino]

They are similar to be honest
Tamoxifen is nolva and toremifene is toremifene LOL. Tore was developed FROM tamoxifen and was altered to make a new SERM. It was developed in Finland in 1981 and is very useful in the threatment of gyno. The only problem is it is much weaker than its derived SERM nolva. So keeping that in mind you would have to run doses of about 60mg of toremifene to be as useful as 20mg of nolva. I have never used it myself but it seems fairly promising in terms of gyno.

[briansauras]

They are similar to be honest
Tamoxifen is nolva and toremifene is toremifene LOL. Tore was developed FROM tamoxifen and was altered to make a new SERM. It was developed in Finland in 1981 and is very useful in the threatment of gyno. The only problem is it is much weaker than its derived SERM nolva. So keeping that in mind you would have to run doses of about 60mg of toremifene to be as useful as 20mg of nolva. I have never used it myself but it seems fairly promising in terms of gyno.

promising how so?

[C_Bino]

Well I havent done a ton of research but it looks possible to be used to reverse gyno and good for prevention as well.

[briansauras]

Well I havent done a ton of research but it looks possible to be used to reverse gyno and good for prevention as well.

would it be more effect in reversal then letro?

[Merc..]

It does not increase PgR like nolva so can be used with tren .. Letro is much better for treating gyno

[C_Bino]

I would still suggest no because it is still a SERM and imo AI's are better. But like I said my research is definitely not as extensive as it is with AI's in this scenario. Also the factor of experience comes into play here. I have ZERO personal experience with toremifene, it is relatively overlooked in the bodybuilding community I find, but you can find it and use it for research purposes so all one can do is try.

I am still working on updates for my gyno thread with raloxifene as well. But it is hard to find info on this sort of thing so it will take some time.

[C_Bino]

It does not increase PgR like nolva so can be used with tren.. Letro is much better for treating gyno

Yes sir, that is a very good quality. Thanks for pointing that out.

[Merc..]

It looks pretty promising.. I have not tried it yet but have been researching it for awhile... I was thinking it would work very well if your using a test / tren cycle with letro and caber and still had some gyno symtoms... Heard it is a pretty good pct compound also .....

[C_Bino]

Ya for sure. I still have some reservations with it since it is a SERM and not an AI...I mean there will still be a lot of estrogen floating around in your body with it. So the mechanism by which is works imo is still inferior to letro but without experience it will be hard for anyone to conclude anything. I remember you doing some research on it and discussing it briefly with you before. I say give it a go and see how it works. Maybe I will pick some up as well and play with it the next time I run a 19-nor compound in my cycle.

[C_Bino]

Ya for sure. I still have some reservations with it since it is a SERM and not an AI...I mean there will still be a lot of estrogen floating around in your body with it. So the mechanism by which is works imo is still inferior to letro but without experience it will be hard for anyone to conclude anything. I remember you doing some research on it and discussing it briefly with you before. I say give it a go and see how it works. Maybe I will pick some up as well and play with it the next time I run a 19-nor compound in my cycle.

[briansauras]

so what you are saying is that letro does nothing if you are running test/tren ?

[briansauras]

so what you are saying is that letro does nothing if you are running test/tren ?

[Merc..]

so what you are saying is that letro does nothing if you are running test/tren?

No !! Letro is great running test and tren ... I am saying I have seen people still have gyno symtoms while using letro and was looking into tore as a possible compound to help since nolva can not be used because it rasies PgR and gives trens metoblites more to bind to.....

[Merc..]

Ya for sure. I still have some reservations with it since it is a SERM and not an AI...I mean there will still be a lot of estrogen floating around in your body with it. So the mechanism by which is works imo is still inferior to letro but without experience it will be hard for anyone to conclude anything. I remember you doing some research on it and discussing it briefly with you before. I say give it a go and see how it works. Maybe I will pick some up as well and play with it the next time I run a 19-nor compound in my cycle.

I agree it will not do anything as far as elminating estrogen floating in your body.. I say try it with letro if you still get gyno symtoms ..... Also not sure if Tore will reduce the effects of letro as the studies are very conflicting on this. Some say that certin SERMS make type 2 AI's less effictive but some show they dont ...

[briansauras]

No !! Letro is great running test and tren... I am saying I have seen people still have gyno symtoms while using letro and was looking into tore as a possible compound to help since nolva can not be used because it rasies PgR and gives trens metoblites more to bind to.....

yeah i still have some gyno. thats why i was going to run 0.5mg ED of letro through out

[Merc..]

I agree it will not do anything as far as elminating estrogen floating in your body.. I say try it with letro if you still get gyno symtoms ..... Also not sure if Tore will reduce the effects of letro as the studies are very conflicting on this. Some say that certin SERMS make type 2 AI's less effictive but some show they dont ...

Thoughts Bino ???

[C_Bino]

Thoughts Bino ???

Ya I have read a few different things as well. I think what I have found mostly is that it really comes down to timing. For examples lets take tamox and femara, as this is the most widely used scenario. Plasma levels of femara can be diminished by 38% (average) with the use of tamox at the same time. However, like I posted in my other thread if you time them right throughout the day people have had success using them both at the same time. This would mean taking femara AFTER taking nolva.

But really my standpoint has always been, regardless of concentrations in blood plasma why do you need a SERM when there is no estrogen to ind to the receptors in the first place, as would be the case when using femara.

[Merc..]

Ya I have read a few different things as well. I think what I have found mostly is that it really comes down to timing. For examples lets take tamox and femara, as this is the most widely used scenario. Plasma levels of femara can be diminished by 38% (average) with the use of tamox at the same time. However, like I posted in my other thread if you time them right throughout the day people have had success using them both at the same time. This would mean taking femara AFTER taking nolva.

But really my standpoint has always been, regardless of concentrations in blood plasma why do you need a SERM when there is no estrogen to ind to the receptors in the first place, as would be the case when using femara.

Good point man... So first thing would be adjust the letro dose rather than adding a SERM..... Sounds good to me!!!!!!