enlarged heart?

[scribbs12]

forgive me if this is stupid question... im just curious.. is it bad to do alot of cardio while on?.. because if you think about it... you heart is a muscle.. and if you're on.. this would cause it to grow?.. just a question.... thanks

[pip_squeek]

hahahahahaha funny stuff. Huge heart hahahahaha no thats not posibble as cardio only trasports more bloood into the heart the heart is a pump all it does is circulate blood into your body through your veins.

[Dude-Man]

Yep. Cardiac muscle expresses the androgen receptor, and there have been several studies linking androgen abuse to cardiac hypertrophy. This isn't a good thing, but it's one of the risks we take.

Ps. Nice post pipsqueek. Looks like you're well on your way to the hall of fame.

Pps. One nice bonus is that androgens encourage HSP70 accumulation in cardiac muscle cells. HSP70 has been linked to several cell survival genes in this context.

Ppps. Cardio isn't going to make too much of a difference when compared with just plain old lifting when it comes to the size of your heart. Resistance training is much more likely to cause hypertrophy than cardio, regardless of androgen presence.

Pppps. Using androgens may further exacerbate the increase in ventricular size associated with resistance training.

[kaberle_15]

^^^Yes your heart is a pump but it can grow, it will grow naturally if you workout and it will grow if you are a heavy drinker. Doesn't mean it will get HUGE but it will grow if it needs to.

[Dog-Slime]

Actually I believe it is possible. I avoid cardio while on for this reason. Many will argue that its growth is not necessarily bad and that it will grow from any type of exercise not just cardio tho.

[scribbs12]

so its not necessarily bad that your heart grows while on.. ? but isnt bad if you lose your gains.. and then have an enlarged heart?...your heart would actually be pumping too much blood instead of the right ammount?..and im pretty sure thats not a good thing. but im not med student .. i took the easy way out and am doing business

[Lunacy]

forgive me if this is stupid question... im just curious.. is it bad to do alot of cardio while on?.. because if you think about it... you heart is a muscle.. and if you're on.. this would cause it to grow?.. just a question.... thanks

Valid question.

[scribbs12]

alright that makes sense... thanks

[MuscleScience]

No, you are in no real danger from an enlargement of the heart.

The heart generally grows to an unsafe size under a couple of conditions.

1. Excessive body mass, you see this many people with bmi's over 35, keep in mind this is a chronic conditions and the process usually takes years to cause a diseased state.
2. Remodeling of the left or right ventricals from MI. This is by far the most common disease state from cardi*****ly.
3. Genetic disorders

If you have excessive androgens in the blood stream it would take a very long time for the heart to grow to an unhealthy size. I have never had a case in the clinic I work for of a person undergoing cardiac rehab due to steroid abuse or naturally high androgen levels. But I have only been there for two years, so take it as it is.

[Dude-Man]

I have never had a case in the clinic I work for of a person undergoing cardiac rehab due to steroid abuse or naturally high androgen levels.

I can cite a few case studies where there has been issues stemming from ventricular hypertrophy related to androgen abuse.

Acta Cardiol. 2005 Aug;60(4):443-4.
Pharmacotherapy. 2005 May;25(5):756-61.
Cardiology. 1997 Mar-Apr;88(2):218-20.
Blood Press. 1993 Sep;2(3):213-6.
J Forensic Sci. 1990 Nov;35(6):1441-7.

Those are just the ones i could get immediately. Once i get back to school tomorrow i can try to grab some more if you guys are still interested.

The fact of the matter is that this is pretty well known in medicine. It's actually common enough that a case study involving it has to be of particular interest to even be published. You've got to figure that a lot of the time, the patient is going to deny use, so it's probably even more common than that.

We've gotta take care of ourselves. Cardio, as i mentioned earlier, produces HSP70 accumulation in cardiac tissue. This is a very good thing. Do your cardio, on cycle or not.

[Lunacy]

Check it out. I was checking out another thread on WWE and the wrestler using aas. It said the wrestlers Eddie Guerra died in 2005 and I wanted to see who he was and came across this in wikipedia.

"An autopsy revealed that Guerrero died as a result of acute heart failure, caused by undiagnosed arteriosclerotic cardiovascular disease and enlargement of the heart as a result of prior anabolic steroid abuse . Although Guerrero had not taken alcohol or illicit drugs for nearly four years, his past excesses contributed to his heart failure. At the time of his death, he had recently used narcotic painkillers."

Dude-man what do you say about this? Is this common?

[Dude-Man]

I just posted about it above. Interestingly, that's not one of the case studies i mentioned. +1 to the list.

Again guys, this is not new news. I'm a little suprised at the lack of general knowledge regarding the negative health impact that steroids can have. As a result, i think this is a great question to have asked. Maybe we should have a sticky of some sort with this type of information.

[scribbs12]

alright so

1. Excessive body mass, you see this many people with bmi's over 35, keep in mind this is a chronic conditions and the process usually takes years to cause a diseased state.
2. Remodeling of the left or right ventricals from MI. This is by far the most common disease state from cardi*****ly.
3. Genetic disorders

are really the only reasons this would happen to you..

-- and refering to number 1.. if you were a pro body builder such as the ones in the mr olympia comps.. wouldnt that stress your heart and cause it to grow larger.... wouldnt it be the same as being fat in a sense...

because i remembered when i was 225.. 5'8 i was tired alot and or got tired easier.. though i wasnt extremely fat... maybe 15-20% .. and i lost alot of wieght and im at 195... and 10x better then when i was 225...

so a few years of being on.. and gaining 50+ pounds would stress your heart out if you think about it.. but thats JMO....

[hippie1171]

good question. your heart is not just a pump, its a muscle. how else could it "pump"? muscle science had a good point: enlarged hearts usually come from genetic disorders/diseases and really excessive body mass(fat). though cardio makes the heart work harder for a short period, in the long run, cardio is good for the heart bc it burns off excess fat, making the heart work less (since there is less body mass to pump blood to).

[Dude-Man]

Then again, I guess people only listen to what they want to hear. You guys can PM me if you have any other questions.

[MuscleScience]

I can cite a few case studies where there has been issues stemming from ventricular hypertrophy related to androgen abuse.

Acta Cardiol. 2005 Aug;60(4):443-4.
Pharmacotherapy. 2005 May;25(5):756-61.
Cardiology. 1997 Mar-Apr;88(2):218-20.
Blood Press. 1993 Sep;2(3):213-6.
J Forensic Sci. 1990 Nov;35(6):1441-7.

Those are just the ones i could get immediately. Once i get back to school tomorrow i can try to grab some more if you guys are still interested.

The fact of the matter is that this is pretty well known in medicine. It's actually common enough that a case study involving it has to be of particular interest to even be published. You've got to figure that a lot of the time, the patient is going to deny use, so it's probably even more common than that.

We've gotta take care of ourselves. Cardio, as i mentioned earlier, produces HSP70 accumulation in cardiac tissue. This is a very good thing. Do your cardio, on cycle or not.

Oh I know there out there, but relative to the other causes of enlarged heart its not as common. From what the cardiologist I work with told me that the more important factor seems to be excess body mass. Wiether or not its caused by AAS doesnt seem to matter in that regard according to him. But I could also see someone who juices year round for years having lots of problems.

But again I have only been there two years and most of my patients we test and work with are general over 55.

And i completely agree that its very good to do cardio while on.

[hippie1171]

also, steroids change the structure, but researches believe it doesnt damage the heart. they say diastolic blood pressure stays the same, and E/A (heart efficiency) ratios improve. BUT the combination of steroids and growth hormone does damage the heart, raise blood pressure, and significant lowers E/A ratios.

[NewVader]

My cardiologist told me (not referred to steroid use but to weight lifting in general) that at first it was believed that all heart hypertrophy was bad but now they found out that only hypertrophy coming from a malformation or malfunctioning is negative. For example if you have a defect in you heart valve then your heart is going to enlarge to compensate for the imbalance. that kind of hypertrophy is bad. However when a heart grows as a result of training (all weight lifters have enlarged heart regardless if they use steroids or not) then It was discovered that that kind of hypertrophy is not harmful at all.
that's what he said, maybe you should research it

[scribbs12]

thanks alot.. great info.. i'll look into it a little more on my own on the side.

[MuscleScience]

alright so

1. Excessive body mass, you see this many people with bmi's over 35, keep in mind this is a chronic conditions and the process usually takes years to cause a diseased state.
2. Remodeling of the left or right ventricals from MI. This is by far the most common disease state from cardi*****ly.
3. Genetic disorders

are really the only reasons this would happen to you..

-- and refering to number 1.. if you were a pro body builder such as the ones in the mr olympia comps.. wouldnt that stress your heart and cause it to grow larger.... wouldnt it be the same as being fat in a sense...

because i remembered when i was 225.. 5'8 i was tired alot and or got tired easier.. though i wasnt extremely fat... maybe 15-20% .. and i lost alot of wieght and im at 195... and 10x better then when i was 225...

so a few years of being on.. and gaining 50+ pounds would stress your heart out if you think about it.. but thats JMO....

There is somewhat of a difference in relation to the body comp of muscular people and fat people. Excessive body fat decreases the efficiency of the cardiovascular system, along with all the factors that lead to becoming obese. Were as muscular individuals with relatively low body fat % generally tend to be fit cardiovascularily. It is easier for the body to compensate for excessive amounts of muscle than it is excessive amounts of fat. One reason being that muscle is highly vascular which tend to keep peripheral resistance down.
Were fat tissue is vascular but since muscle tends to help pump blood back to the heart when it contracts. Fat is basically an empty space that doesnt assist the heart in its pumping action. Excessive backpressure of the blood on the left ventricle is what causes the heart it increase its size on the left side.

Its not to say that highly muscular individuals will not suffer from this. Its not natural for the human body to carry lots of muscle such as guys that are say 6'0 and 260 or 270lbs of pure muscle. But there again it gets back to the BMI ratings of over 35 regardless of muscle or fat mass that seems to be a correlated with enlargement of the heart.

[Dude-Man]

My cardiologist told me (not referred to steroid use but to weight lifting in general) that at first it was believed that all heart hypertrophy was bad but now they found out that only hypertrophy coming from a malformation or malfunctioning is negative. For example if you have a defect in you heart valve then your heart is going to enlarge to compensate for the imbalance. that kind of hypertrophy is bad. However when a heart grows as a result of training (all weight lifters have enlarged heart regardless if they use steroids or not) then It was discovered that that kind of hypertrophy is not harmful at all.
that's what he said, maybe you should research it

Your cadiologist should pick up some newer journals. Accumulating evidence from studies in human patients as well as animal models suggests that in most instances hypertrophy is not a compensatory response to the change in mechanical load, but rather is a maladaptive process. I guess we could debate this all night, but i've said my piece, so feel free to take the thread in any direction you want. Have a good night guys, i have clinical rotations in an hour.

[scribbs12]

yes.. i actually made a thread worth disucssing lol...

[scribbs12]

yes.. i actually made a thread worth disucssing lol...

[NewVader]

Your cadiologist should pick up some newer journals. Accumulating evidence from studies in human patients as well as animal models suggests that in most instances hypertrophy is not a compensatory response to the change in mechanical load, but rather is a maladaptive process. I guess we could debate this all night, but i've said my piece, so feel free to take the thread in any direction you want. Have a good night guys, i have clinical rotations in an hour.

yes that's what he said. He said that in most cases it is a maladaptive process and it's bad (defects, morbid obesity etc), but he also said that when it is due to change in mechanical load (fewer cases I guess but relevant to lifters) then it is ok. Isn't this what you are stating also?

[Ryler]

Hey guys...just thought I would throw my 2 cents in on this one. I recently got done with my first cycle and started having a funny sensation in my chest, not a pain but could tell something wasn't right. went to my doc and he ran an EKG just to be safe. Came back with discrepancies consistent with hypertrophy of the left ventricle. Had to have an ultrasound done on my heart and final decision is I had mild to moderate hypertrophy of my eft ventricle. Most common cause for this is increased BP (wether from AAS, lack of exercise, unhealthy diet, whatever). So now I am on Metoprolol which is a selective beta blocker, specifically beta 1 which decreases heart rate in effect lowering the hearts work load. eventually this should regress my doc said. I have been lifting seriously for years so who knows if years of "natural" lifting did this or if it was mostly from AAS, we'll never know. Just wanted you guys to be aware that bad shit can happen. Don't know if I'll ever run another cycle. Right now I'm running insulin and seeing great gains..just my 2 cents guys, thanks

[IGOTJUICE007]

Left Ventricular Hypertrophy is usually most commonly caused by hypertension.....and as we know many react to AAS with increases in blood pressure.

[texasmk4]

Cardio is good for your health and your heart i don't think too much cardio causes hypertrophy