my 2nd cycle - got all my gear after all!

**davidinvienna** · 11-06-2007, 04:00 PM

week 1: 1000mgs Test E
2 - 14: 500mgs Test E/wk
4 - 12: 400mgs Trenbolac/wk
1 - 12: 400mgs EQ/wk

Adex throughout

PCT: Nolva and HCG

still deciding if to run HCG the "Anthony Roberts way" all throughout or start administering the last 2 weeks while on test till 2weeks after last shot of test.

lookin good?

**AandF6969** · 11-06-2007, 04:01 PM

You should take cabergoline or bromo for tren gyno... its pretty serious. You may want to take 500mg of B6 every day too.

**davidinvienna** · 11-06-2007, 04:06 PM

ok ... mmm, will have to see if i can get my hands on that over here (caber & bromo) ... so you reckon Adex at .5 - 1mg/day wont suffice?

500mgs B6 - tabs?

**AandF6969** · 11-06-2007, 04:08 PM

Arimidex will work fine for the estrogen related gyno, but for progesterone gyno from tren it doesn't do shit.

**davidinvienna** · 11-06-2007, 04:10 PM

damn! ok ... good you ve told me mate - thanks ... just learnt something new

**soulstealer** · 11-06-2007, 04:11 PM

Originally Posted by davidinvienna

ok ... mmm, will have to see if i can get my hands on that over here (caber & bromo) ... so you reckon Adex at .5 - 1mg/day wont suffice?

500mgs B6 - tabs?

You should know what does what before you start a cycle like this and IMO a gram of freakin test and 1/2 a gram of tren is a little on the high side for a second cycle.... but to each their own...

Adex will do wonders with preventing estrogen gyno but then you risk gyno through other condiuts such as progesterone and prolactin and just as it sounds prolactin actually makes you lactate and the gland grow through that route.... Letro will reduce progesterone and estrogen gyno if your sensative to progesterone... I doubt it but its good to have just incase especially if your not goona run a thyroid hormone with this cycle seeing as tren reduces your T3/T4 levels which is known to cause problems with progesterone. As for the prolactin the B6 will probably be ok at that dose I personally am not sensitive to prolactin at all but if you dont know I dont think I would personally risk it...

**davidinvienna** · 11-06-2007, 04:19 PM

Originally Posted by soulstealer

You should know what does what before you start a cycle like this and IMO a gram of freakin test and 1/2 a gram of tren is a little on the high side for a second cycle.... but to each their own...

ok you have a point - maybe I am a lil "too motivated" to get started. nevertheless I am kickin off with a a frontload of 1gm of Test E, then back to 500mgs/wk from the 2nd week.

Adex will do wonders with preventing estrogen gyno but then you risk gyno through other condiuts such as progesterone and prolactin and just as it sounds prolactin actually makes you lactate and the gland grow through that route.... Letro will reduce progesterone and estrogen gyno if your sensative to progesterone... I doubt it but its good to have just incase especially if your not goona run a thyroid hormone with this cycle seeing as tren reduces your T3/T4 levels which is known to cause problems with progesterone. As for the prolactin the B6 will probably be ok at that dose I personally am not sensitive to prolactin at all but if you dont know I dont think I would personally risk it...

So if I understand you correctly I should go for Letro all throughout instead of Adex in order to couner both estro gyno as well as prolactin / progest related gyno plus 500mgs of B6 throughout whole cycle - right?

**soulstealer** · 11-06-2007, 04:22 PM

Originally Posted by davidinvienna

So if I understand you correctly I should go for Letro all throughout instead of Adex in order to couner both estro gyno as well as prolactin / progest related gyno plus 500mgs of B6 throughout whole cycle - right?

You got it brother but then It becomes an issue of letros dosage... something like .1-.2mg should be enough to prevent the estrogen/progesterone problems but I would still suggest a low dose of T3 with the cycle aswell...Oh and my bad one the 1g criticize I didnt realize you were frontloading

**davidinvienna** · 11-06-2007, 04:25 PM

hey thanks for the feedback mate. if i can get my hands on T3 - at what dose should I run it and for how long?

also - what you reckon of the PCT ... Nolva and HCG generally suffice or should I do some fine tuning there?

**AandF6969** · 11-06-2007, 04:35 PM

As far as I know, letrozole doesn't counteract progesterone gyno.

**davidinvienna** · 11-06-2007, 04:39 PM

Originally Posted by AandF6969

As far as I know, letrozole doesn't counteract progesterone gyno.

what is your advice what to use mate?

**AandF6969** · 11-06-2007, 04:48 PM

Cabergoline + arimidex + b6

**MuscleScience** · 11-06-2007, 04:51 PM

tren on a second cycle plus eq!!!!!

Your going to be a monster when your done.

**davidinvienna** · 11-06-2007, 04:52 PM

Originally Posted by MuscleScience

tren on a second cycle plus eq!!!!!

Your going to be a monster when your done.

I'll interpret that as a positive feedback! LOL

**MuscleScience** · 11-06-2007, 04:59 PM

No its positive I am just suprised you would step up to the big boy so fast is all. LOL

**davidinvienna** · 11-06-2007, 05:09 PM

did 12wks of Test E incl 5weeks of Halo for my 1st - had some good results but definitely want to get more out of it this time round. mate of mine just finished a run comprising of Test E/Trenbolac/EQ and the results are just awesome to say the least!

**soulstealer** · 11-06-2007, 10:11 PM

Originally Posted by AandF6969

As far as I know, letrozole doesn't counteract progesterone gyno.

J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 2005 May;95(1-5):83-9.

Aromatase inhibitors: cellular and molecular effects.

Miller WR, Anderson TJ, White S, Larionov A, Murray J, Evans D, Krause A, Dixon JM.

Breast Unit, Western General Hospital, Edinburgh, Scotland, UK. [email protected]

Marked cellular and molecular changes may occur in breast cancers following treatment of postmenopausal breast cancer patients with aromatase inhibitors. Neoadjuvant protocols, in which treatment is given with the primary tumour still within the breast, are particularly illuminating. In Edinburgh, we have shown that 3 months treatment with either anastrozole, exemestane or letrozole produces pathological responses in the majority of oestrogen receptor (ER)-rich tumours (39/59) as manifested by reduced cellularity/increased fibrosis. Changes in histological grading may also take place, most notably a reduction in mitotic figures. This probably reflects an influence on proliferation as most tumours (82%) show a marked decrease in the proliferation marker, Ki67. These effects are generally more dramatic than seen with tamoxifen given in the same setting. Differences between aromatase inhibitors and tamoxifen are also apparent in changes in steroid hormone expression. Thus, immuno-staining for progesterone receptor (PgR) is reduced in almost all cases by aromatase inhibitors, becoming undetectable in many. This contrasts with effects of tamoxifen in which the most common change on PgR is to increase expression. Changes in proliferation occur rapidly following the onset of exposure to aromatase inhibitors. Thus, neoadjuvant studies with letrozole in which tumour was sampled before and after 14 days and 3 months treatment show that decreased expression of Ki67 occur at 14 days and, in many cases, the effect is greater at 14 days than 3 months. These early changes precede evidence of clinical response but do not predict for it. However, this study design has allowed RNA analysis of sequential biopsies taken during the neoadjuvant therapy. Based on clustering techniques, it has been possible to su**ivide tumours into groups showing distinct patterns of molecular changes. These changes in tumour gene expression may allow definition of tumour cohorts with differing sensitivity to aromatase inhibitors and permit early recognition of response and resistance.

This is the best reference I could come up with as I am freakin tired as hell... a suprise to me actually that almost an AI will help with progesterone...

Oh and one other thing I happen to dig up is that its not the progesterone your having the issue with its the prolactins effects on your progesterone receptors so in essence running Letro solo should do the trick...but dont take my word for it I dont wanna be blamed if you get gyno =P

**SNUKA** · 11-06-2007, 10:20 PM

are you going to add aromasin to the pct? i would personally lower the test to 500mg/week

**davidinvienna** · 11-07-2007, 02:54 AM

Originally Posted by soulstealer

J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 2005 May;95(1-5):83-9.

Aromatase inhibitors: cellular and molecular effects.

Miller WR, Anderson TJ, White S, Larionov A, Murray J, Evans D, Krause A, Dixon JM.

Breast Unit, Western General Hospital, Edinburgh, Scotland, UK. [email protected]

Marked cellular and molecular changes may occur in breast cancers following treatment of postmenopausal breast cancer patients with aromatase inhibitors. Neoadjuvant protocols, in which treatment is given with the primary tumour still within the breast, are particularly illuminating. In Edinburgh, we have shown that 3 months treatment with either anastrozole, exemestane or letrozole produces pathological responses in the majority of oestrogen receptor (ER)-rich tumours (39/59) as manifested by reduced cellularity/increased fibrosis. Changes in histological grading may also take place, most notably a reduction in mitotic figures. This probably reflects an influence on proliferation as most tumours (82%) show a marked decrease in the proliferation marker, Ki67. These effects are generally more dramatic than seen with tamoxifen given in the same setting. Differences between aromatase inhibitors and tamoxifen are also apparent in changes in steroid hormone expression. Thus, immuno-staining for progesterone receptor (PgR) is reduced in almost all cases by aromatase inhibitors, becoming undetectable in many. This contrasts with effects of tamoxifen in which the most common change on PgR is to increase expression. Changes in proliferation occur rapidly following the onset of exposure to aromatase inhibitors. Thus, neoadjuvant studies with letrozole in which tumour was sampled before and after 14 days and 3 months treatment show that decreased expression of Ki67 occur at 14 days and, in many cases, the effect is greater at 14 days than 3 months. These early changes precede evidence of clinical response but do not predict for it. However, this study design has allowed RNA analysis of sequential biopsies taken during the neoadjuvant therapy. Based on clustering techniques, it has been possible to su**ivide tumours into groups showing distinct patterns of molecular changes. These changes in tumour gene expression may allow definition of tumour cohorts with differing sensitivity to aromatase inhibitors and permit early recognition of response and resistance.

This is the best reference I could come up with as I am freakin tired as hell... a suprise to me actually that almost an AI will help with progesterone...

Oh and one other thing I happen to dig up is that its not the progesterone your having the issue with its the prolactins effects on your progesterone receptors so in essence running Letro solo should do the trick...but dont take my word for it I dont wanna be blamed if you get gyno =P

great post bud! thanks for diggin up all that info and postin it on here!

**davidinvienna** · 11-07-2007, 02:56 AM

Originally Posted by SNUKA

are you going to add aromasin to the pct? i would personally lower the test to 500mg/week

Test is at 500mgs/wk ... only week one a frontload of 1000mg.

would you recommend adding aromasin to Nolva and HCG for PCT?

**soulstealer** · 11-07-2007, 07:16 AM

Originally Posted by davidinvienna

Test is at 500mgs/wk ... only week one a frontload of 1000mg.

would you recommend adding aromasin to Nolva and HCG for PCT?

I would recomend this:

HCG 500IU's ED Day after last test shot for 10 days
Aromasin ED Start with HCG run for 14 days @ 25mg ED
Nolva ED Start with HCG run for 30 days day 1-14 @ 20mg day 15-21 @ 40mg and day 22-30 @ 20mg...

That PCT has worked very well for me...

**davidinvienna** · 11-07-2007, 10:16 AM

hey that looks great! thanks for the advice - I'll defo give that a try! cheers bud, it's much appreciated

**damiongage** · 11-07-2007, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by soulstealer

I would recomend this:

HCG 500IU's ED Day after last test shot for 10 days
Aromasin ED Start with HCG run for 14 days @ 25mg ED
Nolva ED Start with HCG run for 30 days day 1-14 @ 20mg day 15-21 @ 40mg and day 22-30 @ 20mg...

That PCT has worked very well for me...

care to elaborate on the reasoning for changing the Nolva dose for 1 week? I assume it is because you are discontinuing the Aromisim at 14 days...but I do not see the reasoning in uping it for 1 week....

The rest looks like a decent PCT to me

**daviebeer** · 11-07-2007, 12:48 PM

you thought about Dbol for the first couple weeks instead of the plethora of test for the first week?
Tren is the $#!+ Other than a few sides you may have, you're gonna love it.

Oh and I agree with the letro with it, smart.

**davidinvienna** · 11-07-2007, 01:15 PM

with all the differing info I got on which AI to run throughout and cause I unfortunately can't get my hands on caber as well as bromo, I am inclined to stick with Adex at .5/day and B6 at 500mgs/day throughout as well as havin Letro on hand just in case ....

**davidinvienna** · 11-07-2007, 01:19 PM

Originally Posted by daviebeer

you thought about Dbol for the first couple weeks instead of the plethora of test for the first week?
Tren is the $#!+ Other than a few sides you may have, you're gonna love it.

Oh and I agree with the letro with it, smart.

yea been thinking bout Dbol but not to keen on the water retention - especially since I ve come up with this cycle including a super clean diet to give me as much lean quality gains and strength as possible while keepin water weight to a minimum ... I know a lot will say that I shoulda gone prop instead of enth then but since bloat was barely an issue on my last 12wks of enth, gains were good and sides minimal I simply thought - why change a winning team ;-)