Letro dose that will not hurt gains on cycle

**JasonR** · 01-15-2008, 07:26 AM

Is 0.25mg EOD enough to keep gyno away on a test 200-450mg EW cycle for a person thats prone to it.

Dont have Adex, I do have lots of nolva, but lets say i take 10-20mg, how bad will the IGF inhibition be ?

**JasonR** · 01-15-2008, 12:55 PM

to the top

**M302_Imola** · 01-15-2008, 01:18 PM

Bump. Would like to know as well!

**JasonR** · 01-15-2008, 03:58 PM

Bumpy

**JasonR** · 01-16-2008, 11:13 AM

yo merc where u at

**JasonR** · 01-16-2008, 05:23 PM

12345
its either 0.25mg Letro EOD or 10mg Nolva ED and Letro on hand.

which 1 to choose.

**getfit28** · 01-16-2008, 05:48 PM

I've done .25 eod but ran 500mg test a week & did not hinder my gains, some matter a fact I liked it becuase it kept the bloatness down .

**JasonR** · 01-16-2008, 07:32 PM

ah, thanks ! why did you use an AI, are you gyno prone ?
If so, i'm guessing that it helped.

**Merc..** · 01-16-2008, 07:45 PM

If you are very gyno prone in most cases it is best to use a low dose AI .. I just see alot of people unnecessarily use them .. Dont take medications UNLESS you need them!

I have used letro at .25 mg eod ... It was a high enough dose for me .. As we spoke about in my estrogen and ai thread ( about the study I posted ) showing nolvas effect on IGF ...

If you are only using test in your cycle letro might be a bit much ..( but than that can vary from person to person)..

**legobricks** · 01-16-2008, 07:48 PM

what about a low dose AI while using deca as well? having caber on hand just in case? Didnt know about nolva's effect on hindering IGF levels so ill try to stay away.

**Merc..** · 01-16-2008, 08:07 PM

Tamoxifen reduces serum insulin -like growth factor I (IGF-I).Pollak MN, Huynh HT, Lefebvre SP.
McGill University, Montreal, Quebec, Canada.

Antiestrogens are widely used in the management of hormonally responsive breast cancer in both adjuvant and palliative settings, and are currently being evaluated as chemopreventive agents. The classical mechanism of action of these drugs involves inhibition of estrogen-stimulated neoplastic cell proliferation by blockade of estrogen receptors present on breast cancer cells. This paper reviews recent clinical and laboratory data that suggest that the commonly used antiestrogen tamoxifen also acts to reduce serum IGF-I levels. Estrogens appear to play a permissive role in growth hormone (GH) release by the pituitary gland and GH is known to stimulate IGF-I expression by hepatocytes. It is therefore possible that blockade of estrogen receptors in the hypothalamic-pituitary axis by tamoxifen interferes with GH release, leading to reduced hepatic IGF-I expression. In view of results suggesting that IGF-I is a more potent mitogen than estradiol for breast cancer cells and data demonstrating a positive correlation between estrogen receptor level and IGF-I receptor level of breast cancer cells, the IGF-I lowering effect of tamoxifen may contribute to the cytostatic activity of the drug. The interrelationships between steroid hormone physiology and IGF-I physiology may have relevance to a variety of commonly used treatments for hormonally responsive cancers.

PMID: 1421427 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

**legobricks** · 01-16-2008, 08:10 PM

Wow, thanx merc! Always the guy with the information/answers to questions!

**Merc..** · 01-16-2008, 08:10 PM

Originally Posted by legobricks

what about a low dose AI while using deca as well? having caber on hand just in case? Didnt know about nolva's effect on hindering IGF levels so ill try to stay away.

Also nolva increses PgR in brest tissue .. So it can ( possibly) increase your chances of getting gyno ( when used with a 19 nor like deca or tren ) .. It gives more for the decas metabolites to bind to ...

Merc.

**legobricks** · 01-16-2008, 08:16 PM

Originally Posted by Merc.

Also nolva increses PgR in brest tissue .. So it can ( possibly) increase your chances of getting gyno ( when used with a 19 nor like deca or tren ) .. It gives more for the decas metabolites to bind to ...

Merc.

I already knew that one.

I want some estrogen during cycle so im thinking of just keeping adex and caber on hand just in case i see signs of gyno if the adex is not taking care of it ill use the caber. Would i be better off using both or just one or the other?

**Merc..** · 01-16-2008, 08:17 PM

This part of study that shows nolva increses PgR .. Check it out .. The study is to big to post it so here is one part of it and here is a link to read the entire study about it...

http://cancerres.aacrjournals.org/cg...ull/61/18/6739

The PgR gene is an estrogen-regulated gene (34) , so drugs with estrogenic activity will increase its expression. Accordingly, tamoxifen has been shown to increase PgR levels (35) , whereas initial work on primary breast tumors found that a short-acting formulation of ICI 182,780 reduced PgR levels (30) , suggesting that it is devoid of estrogen-agonist activity and may have a different mechanism of action to that of tamoxifen. Additional evidence that ICI 182,780 and tamoxifen have different underlying modes of action comes from studies showing that tamoxifen-resistant tumors remain sensitive to ICI 182,780 treatment in vitro (18 , 19) , in vivo (36 , 37) , and in the clinic (38, 39, 40) .

Merc.

**Merc..** · 01-16-2008, 08:21 PM

Originally Posted by legobricks

I already knew that one.

I want some estrogen during cycle so im thinking of just keeping adex and caber on hand just in case i see signs of gyno if the adex is not taking care of it ill use the caber. Would i be better off using both or just one or the other?

Caber and adex can both be used ( when using a 19 nor) if someone is very gyno prone , and or is having a problems with prolactin ...

Merc.

**legobricks** · 01-16-2008, 08:42 PM

Originally Posted by Merc.

Caber and adex can both be used ( when using a 19 nor) if someone is very gyno prone , and or is having a problems with prolactin ...

Merc.

Killer, thanx bud!

**Ashop** · 01-16-2008, 09:49 PM

Originally Posted by JasonR

Is 0.25mg EOD enough to keep gyno away on a test 200-450mg EW cycle for a person thats prone to it.

Dont have Adex, I do have lots of nolva, but lets say i take 10-20mg, how bad will the IGF inhibition be ?

some studies show increase of IGF1 levels with LETRO.
try 1.25mg EOD or E3D

**JasonR** · 01-17-2008, 05:50 AM

Ill start at 0.25 and go from there .. thanks !

ONE MORE ANNOYING THING, in the morning and noon, the gyno is literally NOT THERE the slight hardness under the nipple and the puffiness are gone . but before bed\at night its growing or something and you can feel it...

What is that ?
Also they used to hurt bad, now after 3 weeks of letro no matter what I do they do not hurt and look much betteer, but still not perfect.
Go on with this for another week or two ? what are my chances of success ? i am also taking 100mgs of Provi with it ED.

I also dropped the Suspension and left with the test c and Var.. just to make the letros work easier.. was that smart? or adding that susp (50mg ED) to the 200mg EW of cyp won't **** up the letro gyno reversal becuase it cant convert anyway.

**getfit28** · 01-17-2008, 09:11 AM

Originally Posted by JasonR

ah, thanks ! why did you use an AI, are you gyno prone ?
If so, i'm guessing that it helped.

yes bro, I'm very prone to Gyno & this is why I have to use letro & only used letro. I can't speak for adex cause I've never ran that so I can speak on it.. I'm still learning on some stuff.... but Merc go some good info

thanks Mec