HMG/HCG when 2 take?

[LATS60]

ok then how many IUs would i need for say 500ius with hcg for hmg thanks

You need roughly a 1/3 of the dosage, so 150iu would be about 500iu in HCG , i think, if i'm wrong someone put me right.

[bbminded]

ok thanks lats ill go with that unless anyone else wants to jump in??

[Mulciber]

i still havent seen may using it yet.. all the papers im reading are showing hmg and hcg used together..
still seems as tho 75iu HMG is the same as 5000iu hcg

this would mean that every iu of HMG is 66.67 iu's of HCG.

still looking into this more..

[Kratos]

hmg is used in restoration of sperm production but not so much testosterone recovery. Sometimes after substantial steroid abuse you need hmg to kickstart sperm production. I don't think you can use it in the place of HCG .

[Kratos]

i still havent seen may using it yet.. all the papers im reading are showing hmg and hcg used together..
still seems as tho 75iu HMG is the same as 5000iu hcg

this would mean that every iu of HMG is 66.67 iu's of HCG.

still looking into this more..

right, they're almost always used together, HMG not = to HCG
it's almost useless for a steroid user unless you're trying to restart sperm production.

clicical report
Restoration of spermatogenesis with HMG in the hypophysectomized patient has been reported; treatment was started when the involution of the seminiferour tubules was virtually complete. After 67 daily HMG; injections, maturation in some tubules had occurred close to the stage of exfoliation of spermatozoa. After 100 days fully quantitative restoration of spermatogenesis was demonstrated with no evidence of Leydig cell proliferation. Blood testosterone was low. 51 days after start of combined HMG and human chorionic gonadotropin (HCG) therapy, seminal plasma contained 60 million/ml spermatozoa, without Leydig cells. HCG has been shown to be capable of stimulating Sertoli cells and maturing germinal epithelium. HMG plus HCG significantly reinforced the HMG effect on the production of spermatids and spermatozoa. Testosterone given with the gonadotropins had an inhibitory effect.

[Kratos]

most times hmg is not needed

Although testosterone (T) therapy is sufficient for maturation and maintenance of secondary sex characteristics in hypogonadal men, gonadotropins are required for stimulation of spermatogenesis. Thirteen men with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism received treatment with hCG , followed in 12 by the addition of human menopausal gonadotropin (hMG). All initially had undetectable serum LH and FSH and low T levels and were azoospermic with small testes. During therapy, all achieved normal male levels of T. Twelve of 13 had marked and continuous increase in testicular volume. Three men had sperm in the ejaculate with hCG treatment alone. All but 1 patient developed sperm in their seminal fluid during combined hCG and hMG therapy. Two men achieved three pregnancies, and 2 more had semen that produced hamster oocyte penetration assays in the fertile range during the protocol period. Four of 5 who achieved sperm densities greater than 1 million/ml while receiving combined therapy maintained or increased sperm production while receiving continued hCG therapy after hMG was withdrawn. We examined the response to gonadotropin therapy of men who had received previous T therapy and those who had not. There were no differences in rapidity or degree of response, as assessed by rise in serum T, increase in testis volume, or maximal sperm density achieved. Multiple pituitary deficits and cryptorchidism were negative prognostic factors. In summary, the prognosis for successful stimulation of spermatogenesis in men with hypogonadotropic hypogonadism treated with hCG/hMG is good and not adversely affected by prior androgen treatment. Despite undetectable serum FSH levels, hCG treatment was sufficient to both initiate and maintain spermatogenesis in some patients.

PMID: 3928676 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[Kratos]

I wouldn't use it unless I was trying to knock someone up and pct failed to restore sperm count.

[Mulciber]

im becoming less and less interested in HMG the more i read..HMG's advantage over HCG is increased spermatogenesis via stimulation of sertoli cells. the reason why its a better fertility drug. I'm not sure about any advantages of testosterone production over HCG.
seems alot of cyclists use hmg as well as hcg for a boost before a race..

as kratos said.. more of a fertility thing..

Successful treatment of anabolic steroid -induced azoospermia with human chorionic gonadotropin and human menopausal gonadotropin.

Menon DK.

Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, University Malaya Medical Centre, Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. [email protected]

OBJECTIVE: To document for the first time the successful treatment using human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) and human menopausal gonadotropins (hMG) of anabolic steroid-induced azoospermia that was persistent despite 1 year of cessation from steroid use . DESIGN: Clinical case report. SETTINGS: Tertiary referral center for infertility. PATIENT(S): A married couple with primary subfertility secondary to azoospermia and male hypogonadotropic hypogonadism. The husband was a bodybuilder who admitted to have used the anabolic steroids testosterone cypionate , methandrostenolone , oxandrolone, testosterone propionate , oxymetholone, nandrolone decanoate, and methenolone enanthate . INTERVENTION(S): Twice-weekly injections of 10,000 IU of hCG (Profasi; Serono) and daily injections of 75 IU of hMG (Humegon; Organon) for 3 months. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURE(S): Semen analyses, pregnancy. RESULT(S): Semen analyses returned to normal after 3 months of treatment. The couple conceived spontaneously 7 months later. CONCLUSION(S): Steroid-induced azoospermia that is persistent after cessation of steroid use can be treated successfully with hCG and hMG.

[Kratos]

^I saw that white paper too months ago and couldn't find it again thanks for posting^
yeah, even to restore fertility it's almost always used in combo with hCG

[MuscleScience]

Are you guys aware of the concept of synergism as it pertains to LH and FSH?

[Kratos]

Are you guys aware of the concept of synergism as it pertains to LH and FSH?

Not really, I recover fine without using any gonadotropins. I let my body make it's own FSH and LH. I can understand that hCG /hMG may be superior to hCG alone but hMG is an expensive compound and not really needed for the average steroid user. I feel like gonadotropins might do more harm than good, so I don't advocate their use for recovery. Only if someone has trouble with recovery, and hCG should do the trick in that case.

If you've got any info though, throw it up.

[MuscleScience]

Not really, I recover fine without using any gonadotropins. I let my body make it's own FSH and LH. I can understand that hCG /hMG may be superior to hCG alone but hMG is an expensive compound and not really needed for the average steroid user. I feel like gonadotropins might do more harm than good, so I don't advocate their use for recovery. Only if someone has trouble with recovery, and hCG should do the trick in that case.

If you've got any info though, throw it up.

I just meant that for example that in the male body sperm production can happen in the presence either FSH and more specifically Testosterone , circulation in the body. If one is missing it will still produce sperm just not at as high a rate. However If both FSH and T are present sperm production is much more vigorous.

In your opinion by using hCG and hMG together would that help natural T production come back on line much fast than just using one versus the other? I guess that is what I am getting at...

I have had the flu the past few days and it seems my post and questions havent been making much sense......

[Kratos]

I don't think so when it comes to T production. The synergism comes into play more for spermatogenesis.

hCG works pretty quick.

Doesn't FSH stimulate aromatase production? But I don't think it offers much help in the way of T production. It's been so long since I studied this stuff.

[fit4ever180]

edited

[MuscleScience]

I don't think so when it comes to T production. The synergism comes into play more for spermatogenesis.

hCG works pretty quick.

Doesn't FSH stimulate aromatase production? But I don't think it offers much help in the way of T production. It's been so long since I studied this stuff.

That is a can of worms on its own you can spend a life time studying reproductive endocrinology and still be confused by it.

As far as I know all gonadotropins, at least the principle ones we all know about increase aromatase activity. But so does insulin and drinking beer.

hMG is something that I only have heard about once or twice as it pertained to prostate or breast cancer so I have no idea. I didnt know if you had or if there was protocols out there for both since you seem to be pretty on top of this stuff.

Its hard enough getting hCG I cant imagine that many getting hMG to were we could hear a lot of first hand accounts.

[bbminded]

Wonder if hmg increases load volume then! HeHe