inject winny or tabs?

[football3355]

i have access to both, and i've heard the pros and cons of both but i would like some opinions on which works better.

[chuckt12345]

i like oral cause you dont have to shot ed,, its absorb more through IM but to me not worth it enough for the ed shots,, just take a little more oral for the make up

[redz]

The tabs are easier to use and I will never inject it again. Horrible post injection pain adn knots for days on end. I couldnt do cardio while on that stuff, now I keep piles of the oral form on hand.

[marcus300]

Apples and Oranges, winny is a decent product all depends which delivery suits you better.

[football3355]

sounds good guys thanks. I'll go with tabs then....not to mention tabs are cheaper for me at the moment. Plan to run winny and clen together for a nice cutting cycle. Mostly to shed fat and get my six pack back...bulked a little too much last time lol. I would just use clen on it's own, but I need something that will preserve my muscle while clen does it's work on fat. Winny should help shred water and fat too, and hopefully give me a bit of strength. Cardio is goin' way up, i'll let you guys know how it goes.

[WARMachine]

Winny alone?

Youre not gonna get much, dont run it more than 6 weeks in a moderate dose.

[football3355]

Winny alone?

Youre not gonna get much, dont run it more than 6 weeks in a moderate dose.

winny with clen ...i know it isn't very much, but i'm not looking to gain too much muscle if any. I just want to keep the muscle I have (I had a nice bulk) while shedding the fat to get my abs back where they were. Since clen is catabolic to both fat and muscle if used frequently, I was going to use a mild anabolic to help preserve muscle - winny. Does this make sense?

BTW, nice pic of brazil

[WARMachine]

Thanks bro!

And no i get you, i just wanted to make sure you knew that you werent going to be gaining....

No worries

[football3355]

Thanks bro!

And no i get you, i just wanted to make sure you knew that you werent going to be gaining....

No worries

np man, it is a sick pic

yeah i dont expect to be gaining much at all, just a massive cut so i can get my six pack back. Should be pretty kool, i havent even started it yet and already shredding fat...should be even better once i get it. Thanks again guys!

[jstraw428]

Since clen is catabolic to both fat and muscle if used frequently, I was going to use a mild anabolic to help preserve muscle - winny. Does this make sense?

BTW, nice pic of brazil

Didnt know, that clen was catabolic.....I am pretty sure it is anti-catabolic, and that is why a lot of people include it in their pct...

and winny will not shed water and fat.....

Seriously kid, and i do mean Kid.....you need to do a lot more research....

[football3355]

Didnt know, that clen was catabolic.....I am pretty sure it is anti-catabolic, and that is why a lot of people include it in their pct...

and winny will not shed water and fat.....

Seriously kid, and i do mean Kid.....you need to do a lot more research....

ahah u again....winny DOES shed water...thats why its used for cutting....second id post where i read that but its against the rules to post from other sites...and if u believe someone who got banned a while back that im 16 years old....get a life....he got banned for a reason bro

[T_Own]

i'm with jstraw..

[jstraw428]

I will post all your past threads in just a bit....One says your 22 and another says your 24....as of 8/08 you had not done any cycles, and now you say you have done four..... 4 cycles in 3 months is a bit much dont you think.....

YOu seriously need to get your facts straight bro, and quit lieing on the board...

Everyone, read this kids past threads......

[jstraw428]

And winny does not shed water or fat....CARDIO AND DIET DOES THAT.....

[football3355]

i'm with jstraw..

awesome...be with whoever you want. one8nine accused me a few times of being a teen. im 22 years old...if u choose to not believe that then thats your problem. just remember, you got that from a rumor stated by someone who got banned for doing what he did best - LIE.

[WARMachine]

And winny does not shed water or fat....CARDIO AND DIET DOES THAT.....

This is true... There is no AAS that sheds fat. Period.

And Clen IS anti-catabolic...

Post those threads JStraw...

[jstraw428]

YOu might be 22 years old, but you are giving people advice and commenting on stuff you have no clue about except what you have read.....

As of 8/8/08, you had done no cycles, but in my methyl tren thread you said you had done a halo cycle, but later said that it was a freind...A little bit later, you said you had only done test e and prop.....

So what is it......are you lieing to everyone here so we think you are cool, all your doing is looking like a dumbass little kid, and giving horrible advice

STOP TALKING ABOUT SHIT YOU DONT KNOW ABOUT.....

[football3355]

This is true... There is no AAS that sheds fat. Period.

And Clen IS anti-catabolic...

Post those threads JStraw...

jjjh

[WARMachine]

Wow i just looked at his first thread, he says hes 24...

Ok, i believe JStraw...

Youre busted kid...

Give it up and come CLEAN now...

[jstraw428]

I am gonna give this kid a bit to think about what is getting ready to happen if i post these....i have them saved on my computer ready to go.....

Just dont give anyone any more advice, and i wont post these threads.....that way you can at least study this stuff with some dignity....otherwise, people will know you as a liar....

[WARMachine]

ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuucccccccccccccccccckkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk u

Youre gone...



* grabs popcorn and waits for BIG to kick some ass*

[jstraw428]

ffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuucccccccccccccccccckkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk u

Nice one kid....did you come up with that on your own.......

[football3355]

Youre gone...



* grabs popcorn and waits for BIG to kick some ass*

kool

[football3355]

Nice one kid....did you come up with that on your own.......

i heard your only 18 bud...whos the liar now...

[jstraw428]

Guys, i really hate being a DICK like that, but at the same time i REALLY HATE seeing people given horrible advice by someone who does not know what he is talking about....Your posts in this thread alone prove it.....

1) Clen is catabolic
2) winny sheds water and fat

where are you coming up with this crap.....

[WARMachine]

* while wargueer grabs some dick and to take it inthe ass

wtf? Is that english? Dude, just give it up, leave with a little dignity.

I mean honestly now.

[jstraw428]

Read my profile bud....I am 28 born april 28, 1980.....graduated college in 03.....dont think you were even old enough to drive then.....

[jimmyinkedup]

This is true... There is no AAS that sheds fat. Period.

And Clen IS anti-catabolic...

Post those threads JStraw...

Well true except for possibly the beloved tren a ..... Such a common misconception tho ..the shred fat thing. I think many people confuse this as when they build muscle their body will use caloric intake to support additional muscle mass as opposed to store fat and also the additional muscle gained and muscle repair process in the body will result in calories burned(actually for a much longer duration than cardio however at a lower metabolic rate) so without major caloric increases many people do lose bodyfat. Why am I stirring this pot..I think you guys are right this post seems kinds foolish.

[football3355]

Edited

[jimmyinkedup]

damn u guys type fast or im just really slow!! truth is my hands are shaking so bad from clen right now it takes 5 mins to correct my spelling errors! Had i seen his following posts i wouldnt even have chimed in at all. what an idiot.

[football3355]

Edited

[football3355]

Read my profile bud....I am 28 born april 28, 1980.....graduated college in 03.....dont think you were even old enough to drive then.....

i could make a profile saying i was 60...doesnt mean ita true

[WARMachine]

Well true except for possibly the beloved tren a ..... Such a common misconception tho ..the shred fat thing. I think many people confuse this as when they build muscle their body will use caloric intake to support additional muscle mass as opposed to store fat and also the additional muscle gained and muscle repair process in the body will result in calories burned(actually for a much longer duration than cardio however at a lower metabolic rate) so without major caloric increases many people do lose bodyfat. Why am I stirring this pot..I think you guys are right this post seems kinds foolish.

Ok agreed... Though the compound does not actually cause the fat loss. Though it can inadverntly.

Anyway, not the point...

[jstraw428]

Again, if it were catabolic....why would so many people include it in their PCT....

[football3355]

Again, if it were catabolic....why would so many people include it in their PCT....

good ? Idk im just saying that article gives scientific info...just cuz "people use it in pct"

[WARMachine]

i could make a profile saying i was 60...doesnt mean ita true

Dude seriously, just let it go... Leave. Youre going to be suspended. Come back when you mature a little bit.

Take your vacation time and use it to learn about the compounds you want to take. As well as workout routines, and tweaks in your diet.

Hopefully if you return, you will be better suited to help others. Right now, thats not the case.

[jstraw428]

i could make a profile saying i was 60...doesnt mean ita true

I just dont see the point in lieing in a profile.....That is so we have accurate info about you, so we can better give you advice on how to cycle your gear....

I would give a 60 year old a lot different cycle info, than i would some punk ass 19 year old kid

[football3355]

Edited

[WARMachine]

good ? Idk im just saying that article gives scientific info...just cuz "people use it in pct"

What is Clenbuterol and what does it do?
Clenbuterol (often referred to simply as 'Clen ') is not a steroid , but a Beta 2 Sympathomitetic and central nervous system (CNS) stimulant. It is a specific agonist, stimulating the adrenergic beta 2 receptors. It is used in certain countries in a medical sense as a bronchodilator in the treatment of asthma, though not in the UK and USA, mainly due to its long half life.

Athletes and bodybuilders use the drug due to its thermogenic and anti-catabolic effects. This is down to its ability to slightly increase the body's core temperature, thereby raising calorie (energy) expenditure. It is thought that a 1°F increase yields around a 5% increase in maintenance calories burned. Studies on livestock suggest that clenbuterol also has anabolic properties. However, this seems not to be the case in humans, thought to be due to the fact that humans lack the abundance of beta 3 receptors which increase insulin production and sensitivity.

Clenbuterol is dosed in micrograms (mcg/µg), most commonly in tablet form, though there are other forms of administration such as liquids, nasal sprays and injectables. Note: Although dosages are in microgram amounts, many manufacturers will list the active ingredient as milligrams (mg), so a tablet of 20mcg will be labelled as 0.02mg.

What are the side effects/possible implications?
Side effects are dose dependant, though most users will find that most tend to subside with persistent use. Caution is advised when employing the use of Clenbuterol in conjunction with other adrenoceptor agonists as side effects are likely to be cumulative. It is for this reason that it is generally not recommended to use ephedrine/ephedra (or ma huang) or the ECA stack (ephedrine-caffeine-aspirin) whilst using clen.

Common side effects of clenbuterol include:
Headaches
Muscular tremors (especially hand shakes)
Muscular cramps
Nervousness
Insomnia
Sweating
Increased appetite
Nausea
Palpitations
Hypertension (high blood pressure)
Possible cardiac hypertrophy as clen also targets cardiac and smooth muscle fibres
Heart muscle necrosis has been demonstrated in animal studies

In view of the above side effects, it is obvious to assume that anyone with cardiac issues and/or hypertension should not use a stimulant such as Clenbuterol and caution must be observed by those already using similar compounds in the treatment of existing medical conditions. In addition, there is very little conclusive knowledge of the cardiac effects of supra-physiological dosages in humans.

Commonly used doses
It is well known that Clenbuterol use results in rapid down-regulation of beta 2 receptors. This is due to the powerful stimulatory effect of the drug. It is therefore pointless to use clen for long periods without a break. Some believe that a two day on, two day off dosing schedule will allow adequate potential for receptor up-regulation. However, I doubt this to be the case due to the relatively long half life of clen, resulting in continued stimulation even throughout the 'off' days. A much better regime would be a two week on, two week off cycle. Maximum plasma levels are reached around 2-3 hours after oral administration, and terminal half life at 34 hours (Zimmer, 1976).

A tapering up of dosages is recommended in an attempt to limit harsh side effects. Most commonly, a user will start by taking one 20mcg tablet on day 1, followed by an increase of one tablet on subsequent days. Subject to personal tolerance levels, a dosage of 140mcg (seven tabs) will be used by day 7, and this level should be maintained for the entire second week. It would be fruitless to exceed seven or eight tablets daily due to receptor over-saturation. There is no requirement to taper down.

For the next 'cycle' of clen (i.e. weeks 5 & 6), there is no requirement to taper up from one tablet as your tolerance level should now be known. As an example, if the user finished the first cycle of clen on 7 tabs, they could recommence at a slightly lower dose of 4 or 5, and taper up again from this level. Again though, the user should again limit their intake to 7 or 8 tabs daily.

During the two 'off' weeks, an ECA stack can be used as required. ECA will not cause such a pronounced down regulation and desensitization of the receptors, certainly not to the extent of clen. Ephedrine has a short half life in contrast to clen which results in times throughout the day where the betas will partially recover from stimulation by adrenaline and nor-adrenaline. Potency is also much weaker that that of clen, as it is not a specific agonist. Ephedrine is also thought to increase the conversion of endogenous/exogenous T4 to T3 through the activation of deiodinase enzymes responsible for this process. This is important as clen is known to slow the rate of T4 to T3 conversion. As a side note, some bodybuilders will use T3 concurrently with the Clenbuterol/ECA cutting cycle (together with certain anabolic/androgenic steroids no doubt!) in an attempt to at least maintain plasma T3 levels.

Cycles of Clen/ECA are normally limited to 12 weeks in total, though are often shorter.

Female dosages tend to be slightly lower than those of male users, with an upper limit of 80-120mcg (4-6 tabs).

Aside from its fat burning properties, Clen is often used as an anti-catabolic to maintain muscular gains following a steroid cycle. A dosage of 40mcg daily would be suited to this situation.

There is no particular requirement to split the dosage throughout the day due to the long half life. Most will take the full daily dose in the morning, though some prefer to take their dose just before bed in an attempt to avoid most of the side effects as they sleep.

Some user accounts suggest that splitting the dose may lessen side effects slightly. It is a trial and error process in essence, to ascertain which method suits you personally.

Muscular cramping
Cramping whilst using Clenbuterol is a fairly common side effect. This is most probably due to depletion of the amino acid taurine in the liver together with deficits in the electrolytes sodium and potassium, as well as inadequate hydration. Taurine helps stabilize cell membranes and prevent nerves from becoming over-excited. Some studies show that giving taurine supplements relieves painful muscle cramps. Japanese researchers found that the longer rats exercised, the more taurine they lost from their muscles (Matsuzaki et al, 2002).

Symptoms of cramping may be alleviated by:
Eating fruit particularly bananas
Ensuring adequate hydration
Taurine supplementation - 3-5g daily
Potassium supplementation - 200-400mg daily taken before bed on an empty stomach

Ketotifen
Ketotifen is an anti-histamine used medically to treat bronchial asthma and allergies. It has a sedative and depressant effect on the brain. It acts by decreasing the release of histamine which is a chemical released when an allergic reaction occurs. Ketotifen blocks the action of histamine on special histamine receptors and reduces the nerve response when an allergic reaction occurs.

Histamine is the chemical in the body that causes the symptoms of an allergic (hypersensitivity) reaction. These can include inflammation of the skin, airways or tissues, rashes, itching and of the skin, eyes or nose, nasal congestion and narrowing of the airways. By blocking the actions of histamine, ketotifen may prevent and relieve the narrowing of the airways that occurs in asthma due to allergies.

However, bodybuilders are interested in the drug as it has been shown to inhibit the down regulation of the beta receptors, including the beta 2s that clen stimulates. As long as you are taking ketotifen, it will continue to clean these receptors, never allowing them to downregulate, even while on a heavy clen cycle. That means you can continue to take clen indefinitely without having to cycle off to regenerate the receptors. A dose of 2-3mg daily can upregulate even severely shut down receptors within a week.

It also means that you don't need as much clen to get the same benefits. It seems you can take about 30-40% less clen and it be equally effective.

No studies have been done to find the most effective dose though most users should find 3-4mg daily ideal, which can be split or taken in one sitting. Higher doses are likely to cause (sometimes severe) drowsiness and increase appetite.
References

1. Matsuzaki et al (2002). Decreased taurine concentration in skeletal muscles after exercise for various durations. Med & Sci Sp & Ex. 34(5):793-797.
2. Zimmer (1976). Single and multiple applications and metabolite pattern of clenbuterol in man (author's transl). Arzneimittelforschung 26(7a):1446-50.
Source: http://www.muscletalk.co.uk/article-clenbuterol.asp


Anymore questions before your vacation?

[jimmyinkedup]

Ok agreed... Though the compound does not actually cause the fat loss. Though it can inadverntly.

Anyway, not the point...

100 % agreed bro.... shoulda prob kept my mouth shut ..this guy is a tool....
Now he might take my post and twist the shit out of it and use it in another thread or somewhere else..it looks like he is pretty good at that!