12ng/dl - No Steroid Use Ever - What to do?

**tension** · 03-07-2009, 10:46 PM

Hey.
I need advice guys.
I'm been tested 7 times and been at under 100 ng/dl total test everytime. I've never taken a steroid or hormone supplement in my life. So, I'm considering starting. I feel terrible, look terrible, and everything seems harder than it should be.
But, my medical insurance isn't very good. The endo I'm "allowed" to go to won't diagnose/treat me at all until I get an MRI, which would cost $8000 out of my pocket.
So, I'm wondering if there is a way I could get HRT/TRT without a doctor? And if I could basically treat myself with them or even steroids ?

***T-MOS*** · 03-07-2009, 11:12 PM

Welcome to AR

what are your stats?

how old are you?

$8000 just for an MRI, i never heard of it costing that much??

**Mammon** · 03-07-2009, 11:16 PM

why a MRI anyway..

**MuscleScience** · 03-07-2009, 11:23 PM

Originally Posted by Mammon

why a MRI anyway..

Empty Sella syndrome, Pituitary Tumors....ECT.

**Big** · 03-07-2009, 11:37 PM

I've had 2 MRI in the last 2 years, neither were anywhere near 8 grand.

**tension** · 03-07-2009, 11:38 PM

Originally Posted by T-MOS

Welcome to AR

what are your stats?

how old are you?

$8000 just for an MRI, i never heard of it costing that much??

6'1
skinny-fat; very weak
21 years old

The doctor quoted $8000. My medical plan would only knock off a few hundred dollars.

**BloodyBillAnderson** · 03-07-2009, 11:40 PM

contact ******* I use them, great clinic. maybe I shuld not post the name, pm me.

edit

**BloodyBillAnderson** · 03-07-2009, 11:46 PM

never mind I just noticed your 21, but if your nat test is that low they may have a program for you. then again at your age there may something more going on for you to have low test, probably best to get the mri.

**tension** · 03-08-2009, 12:36 AM

Originally Posted by BloodyBillAnderson

never mind I just noticed your 21, but if your nat test is that low they may have a program for you. then again at your age there may something more going on for you to have low test, probably best to get the mri.

How old do you need to be for treatment?
I'm not too familiar with my options. Is low testosterone something I could treat on my own if I educate myself about the various types of steroids and have the money?

**Big** · 03-08-2009, 12:40 AM

Originally Posted by tension

How old do you need to be for treatment?
I'm not too familiar with my options. Is low testosterone something I could treat on my own if I educate myself about the various types of steroids and have the money?

yes and no. treating low test is easy, but the fact of the matter is in your situation low test levels aren't the problem, they are the symptom of the problem. you should never treat a symptom without understanding the condition that is cousing the symptom, so in my opinion you really need to have the MRI. I'm just tossing ideas out, but you could have a tumor that could be treated if caught now. throwing test at the problem could exacerbate the situation by minimising the symptoms while the problem itself grows.

**tension** · 03-08-2009, 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by Big

yes and no. treating low test is easy, but the fact of the matter is in your situation low test levels aren't the problem, they are the symptom of the problem. you should never treat a symptom without understanding the condition that is cousing the symptom, so in my opinion you really need to have the MRI. I'm just tossing ideas out, but you could have a tumor that could be treated if caught now. throwing test at the problem could exacerbate the situation by minimising the symptoms while the problem itself grows.

Is an MRI the only way to do this? And would my circumstances likely indicate a tumor or do people just have very low test sometimes?

**BloodyBillAnderson** · 03-08-2009, 03:22 PM

Generally the clinics wont work with you unless you are at least 30 and have low-low normal test levels. I am 43 and once I had a blood test showing low normal test I was good to go. But as stated by big, there is something going on in your body that is not normal, at 43 low test is normal, at 21 it is not. If you want to talk to my clinic I can give you the number, pm me. I would bet that they will need a solid diagnosis of what your problem is before the doc will give you any prescription.

**tension** · 03-08-2009, 10:39 PM

Okay. Well, I look terrible. I don't make gains in the gym, get bigger, get leaner, or anything. And, more importantly, I feel terrible. I have bad energy. I have no libido or male-tality. I have no desire to do anything. I have an unstable mood and outlook. I can't think or be outgoing or anything. Everything is just dismal.
So, would brief HRT be an option to ask for? Are there other short-term options? And what are the longer-term consequences?
Is it something where I could just go on until I get the MRI?

**JiGGaMaN** · 03-08-2009, 11:50 PM

Originally Posted by Big

I've had 2 MRI in the last 2 years, neither were anywhere near 8 grand.

thats because you got the jiggaman discount. i dont give it out to just anyone.

**MuscleScience** · 03-09-2009, 01:42 AM

I should have mentioned this earlier but the early to mid twenties is a time in a mans life when the risk of developing testicular cancer increases dramatically. The typical age group with the greatest risk is between the ages of 25-40, so be aware guys and have your partners check your nuts often...LOL

**tension** · 03-10-2009, 12:03 AM

So, would it be worth seeing if I could get on HRT until the MRI? I'm really not very happy with life right now and think that might be the root cause of it.

**Kratos** · 03-10-2009, 10:54 AM

get better insurance, then get an mri
have you always felt like this?
if your doc didn't have you do the MRI, it would be supervised negligence at your age...you should want to have it done

**Kratos** · 03-10-2009, 10:56 AM

Originally Posted by Big

I've had 2 MRI in the last 2 years, neither were anywhere near 8 grand.

they aren't cheap if your insurance doesn't cover
sounds in the ball park for a cash price
My dog needed one and they quoted me 4k

**tension** · 03-11-2009, 10:59 PM

Originally Posted by Kratos

get better insurance, then get an mri
have you always felt like this?
if your doc didn't have you do the MRI, it would be supervised negligence at your age...you should want to have it done

for about two years now. i understand - but is that the only way (MRI)?

**JiGGaMaN** · 03-11-2009, 11:42 PM

Originally Posted by Kratos

get better insurance, then get an mri
have you always felt like this?
if your doc didn't have you do the MRI, it would be supervised negligence at your age...you should want to have it done

i never had a mri. just symptoms of low test.

**Voltaire** · 03-12-2009, 12:32 AM

You are probably suffering from depression tension. Instead of asking on the forum go see another doc. Shop around with docs even if it costs! this is your life your taking about, spend all you can to live it the best way. If you don't spend money on that then whats the point in having any money at all.

**Kratos** · 03-12-2009, 11:20 AM

Originally Posted by JiGGaMaN

i never had a mri. just symptoms of low test.

well, his test is almost non existant at a young age
and he said it's been like this not forever but for a few years
so, something is stopping it
no steroids ever
the doc is right for wanting to eliminate life threatening possibilities (however unlikely)
no point putting them on HRT to find out a year later they're going to die of cancer and early detection would have made it curable

**Voltaire** · 03-12-2009, 11:56 PM

i still say you have depression. Depression can lead to lower testosterone and higher estrogen levels, especially undiagnosed depression. Lethargy, general moodiness, feeling like crap etc are ALL symptoms of depression. Trust me when i say go to a pyshcologist or an MD, describe your feelings, say you might be depressed. Rather than get test and dose yourself check this out first. If its the case then you wont need test, and will feel better in every aspect of your life without it! Then use it for size not for well being.

**Voltaire** · 03-12-2009, 11:57 PM

Originally Posted by Kratos

well, his test is almost non existant at a young age
and he said it's been like this not forever but for a few years
so, something is stopping it
no steroids ever
the doc is right for wanting to eliminate life threatening possibilities (however unlikely)
no point putting them on HRT to find out a year later they're going to die of cancer and early detection would have made it curable

Also IMO he does not have cancer. Do the tests to be sure but scaring the kid wont help. If he had cancer for 2 years undiagnosed, he would be dead. Plain and simple. Thus he does not have cancer.

**jeffefrijoles** · 03-13-2009, 12:07 AM

I had MRIs on both ankles - $1k a piece, for just the ankles! So yes, they are expensive... And i agree COMPLETELY - do not use test at this point as it may just hide, or prolong finding the root cause of your symptoms. Sure, it will make you feel better, but perhaps for just a very short time.... dig deep now, do what ya gotta do, get your body fixed. Then, as Voltaire says, use the juice to get big, not just normal! Good luck!

**BrokenBricks** · 03-13-2009, 12:44 AM

Originally Posted by Voltaire

Also IMO he does not have cancer. Do the tests to be sure but scaring the kid wont help. If he had cancer for 2 years undiagnosed, he would be dead. Plain and simple. Thus he does not have cancer.

Here is a little feedback. When you feel a level of confidence in your opinion similar to what you felt when writing this post....don't post. This is the most ridiculous post I have ever read on this board. You just knocked that silly sticky about the effects of coke off the top spot.

The "cost" of an MRI is an imaginary number which no one actually pays. The business bills for 8k, they get a partial payment and are satisfied. If they need more money they raise the price and their partial payment is a little higher. The people who get screwed are people who actually intend to pay cash. They pay a price which bears little resemblance to the actual amount the business expects to receive. What you need to do is call up local imaging centers and talk to the manager and let them know you are paying cash up front. You will pay less than 2k.

**BrokenBricks** · 03-13-2009, 12:47 AM

Originally Posted by Voltaire

You are probably suffering from depression tension. Instead of asking on the forum go see another doc. Shop around with docs even if it costs! this is your life your taking about, spend all you can to live it the best way. If you don't spend money on that then whats the point in having any money at all.

Depression is not going to make someones test 12 ng/dl. Stop posting this horrendous medical advice.

To the OP, they generally test your LH when they test your test. What was the value?

**Voltaire** · 03-13-2009, 02:23 AM

Originally Posted by BrokenBricks

Depression is not going to make someones test 12 ng/dl. Stop posting this horrendous medical advice.

To the OP, they generally test your LH when they test your test. What was the value?

No base measurement exists to say that one has depression. IT'S psychological.
The link between lower Testosterone and depression is very real, now this might not be the cause of his low level readings, but as a bi-product of lower test he may be suffering from depression in which his levels are even lower. Having low test does not mean he HAS cancer. That is speculation. Someone exhibiting his symptoms is typical of Depression, this is fact!

You cannot say he doesn't have depression by looking at his TEST levels, plain and simple. This is not an indication at all, merely your OPINION.

**Voltaire** · 03-13-2009, 02:27 AM

Originally Posted by BrokenBricks

Here is a little feedback. When you feel a level of confidence in your opinion similar to what you felt when writing this post....don't post. This is the most ridiculous post I have ever read on this board. You just knocked that silly sticky about the effects of coke off the top spot.

Fear mongering causes nothing but panic. He is obviously going through issues, that COULD be psychological! My advice is go get it checked out. How is that stupid???????

"DR my leg is hurting"

"Upon NOT looking i deduce that it's cancer and will chop it off"

How can you make a claim that covering your bases is wrong.
You defiantly should win the award for stupidest post my friend.
My advice was for his own good, not for you to nit pick at, with NO CONCLUSIVE evidence or for that matter reason to oppose.

**InsaneInTheMembrane** · 03-13-2009, 02:45 AM

12 ng/dl is dismally low... I would take up most of the bro's advice and rush to get an MRI. Get your insurance sorted out (change insurers or whatever) and go get the MRI... there's something very wrong going on in your body and you don't want to be too late fixing that...it could be anything, secondary or primary hypogonadism, a benign tumor that is suppressing your pituitary or hypothalamus that is easily operable, or even testicular cancer in it's early yet reversible stages. This is not fear mongering or causing you panic... just to remind you of the gravity of the situation; you deserve to have a good quality of life and a positive mental outlook... that's just not happening by you sitting infront of the comp screen and asking us for answers... and I concur, shooting up the gear will just mask the problem, not fix it.

**Voltaire** · 03-13-2009, 03:07 AM

Exactly. Cover all your bases. Have the MRI, Have multiple blood tests, go see a psychologist. Cover ALL bases, do what the MD suggest first, then if that proves inconclusive, have the next set of test and so on. Stay positive mate.

**XNathan** · 03-13-2009, 03:51 AM

Originally Posted by jeffefrijoles

I had MRIs on both ankles - $1k a piece, for just the ankles! So yes, they are expensive... And i agree COMPLETELY - do not use test at this point as it may just hide, or prolong finding the root cause of your symptoms. Sure, it will make you feel better, but perhaps for just a very short time.... dig deep now, do what ya gotta do, get your body fixed. Then, as Voltaire says, use the juice to get big, not just normal! Good luck!

This is why USA health care suck. My friends who live in USA always go back to my country for medical care. We have it on highest quality and hey for free!!!! You pay from your income some fixed percentage to health care system and than you have all you need.

If you will count how much cost average MRI machine and how much they get from patients you will found that MRI machine will be disbursed in 1,5yr and than will generate huge profit to owner... GOD this is not good in health care. People in my country would never tolerate this.

Back to unlucky thread starter.

Wait for your tests, try to find couse of your problems. And dont start self medicate with test. And If you want MRI for free come to my country and start working there and you will get it.

In each case I wish you luck!

**BrokenBricks** · 03-13-2009, 04:47 AM

Originally Posted by Voltaire

No base measurement exists to say that one has depression. IT'S psychological.
The link between lower Testosterone and depression is very real, now this might not be the cause of his low level readings, but as a bi-product of lower test he may be suffering from depression in which his levels are even lower. Having low test does not mean he HAS cancer. That is speculation. Someone exhibiting his symptoms is typical of Depression, this is fact!

You cannot say he doesn't have depression by looking at his TEST levels, plain and simple. This is not an indication at all, merely your OPINION.

Read carefully. I did not say having low test levels rules out a diagnosis of depression. I said a hypothetical diagnosis of depression does not explain the testosterone level. That depression can lower test levels does not mean that *any* magnitude of hypogonadism is possible due to depression. To look at another example, anxiety can increase your pulse rate. But if your pulse is 300, entertaining a diagnosis of anxiety is absurd. The person surely would be anxious, but there is serious biological pathology at work and your psychology simply does not have the ability to cause that kind of profound effect.

If low test is known to cause *every* symptom he describes, if depression cannot explain the depths of his test level, don't you think calling this depression is wrong? You see many conditions can lead to a similar spectrum of symptoms. This is why medical education is the longest of any profession. It is not simple. I respect the fact that this board must labor under the difficulty of the medical community having rejected steroid use for our purposes, and must therefor take many matters that are essentially medical into their own hands. That said, a certain amount of restraint is prudent when offering medical advice when you clearly don't know what you are talking about.

**BrokenBricks** · 03-13-2009, 04:50 AM

Originally Posted by Voltaire

Fear mongering causes nothing but panic. He is obviously going through issues, that COULD be psychological! My advice is go get it checked out. How is that stupid???????

"DR my leg is hurting"

"Upon NOT looking i deduce that it's cancer and will chop it off"

How can you make a claim that covering your bases is wrong.
You defiantly should win the award for stupidest post my friend.
My advice was for his own good, not for you to nit pick at, with NO CONCLUSIVE evidence or for that matter reason to oppose.

Fear mongering? First, I did not tell the guy he has cancer. Though Ill say now that it is a possibility, though remote. I did not criticize any recommendation to get it checked. What I quoted was you ruling out the possibility of cancer based on the logic that "you would be dead". That is absurd.

**Voltaire** · 03-13-2009, 05:16 AM

Originally Posted by BrokenBricks

Fear mongering? First, I did not tell the guy he has cancer. Though Ill say now that it is a possibility, though remote. I did not criticize any recommendation to get it checked. What I quoted was you ruling out the possibility of cancer based on the logic that "you would be dead". That is absurd.

The idea that he could have cancer unnoticed, undiagnosed, without further symptoms, for two years, and function, is absurd. That is my opinion. With my "he would be dead" remark I was highlighting the possibility that he indeed most likely, does not have cancer. To suggest so, seems like fear mongering to me. Impossible to diagnose without more facts, even to hint at. Being careful with diagnosis is imperative in the medical field. I'm only going on the facts i have been presented with. Thats how i have caste my judgment.

**BrokenBricks** · 03-13-2009, 05:21 AM

Originally Posted by Voltaire

The idea that he could have cancer unnoticed, undiagnosed, without further symptoms, for two years, and function, is absurd. That is my opinion. With my "he would be dead" remark I was highlighting the possibility that he indeed most likely, does not have cancer. To suggest so, seems like fear mongering to me. Impossible to diagnose without more facts, even to hint at. Being careful with diagnosis is imperative in the medical field. I'm only going on the facts i have been presented with. Thats how i have caste my judgment.

And what medical training do you have which validates your "opinion"? I doubt you could name a cancer beyond melanoma and "*insert organ name* cancer" much less confidently rule out the presence of such. You do no favors by suggesting ridiculous ideas like depression. Simply add your voice to the chorus of people saying "See a doctor" and leave it at that. Your "opinion" is about as useful as my opinion on techniques of violin construction.