Liver support & Oral Steroids!?

**GrandmasterSpank** · 03-18-2009, 04:40 PM

I did a search on a well known search engine and found some anecdotal stuff suggesting that liver support formulas (Milk Thistle/Liv-52) could hinder gains when taken along with Orals steroids , as opposed to before & after the on-cycle period....Hmm, that would suck if it were true right!?

Anyone know if there is actually any truth to this, or for that matter, has anyone had any first-hand experience which supports/diminishes this idea?

Cheers y'all!

**domeyeahaigh** · 03-18-2009, 05:55 PM

Neverheard this before, what evidence suggest this?

**NewMuscle83** · 03-18-2009, 09:20 PM

i've read the same. but really, wouldnt u rather lose 5% on effectiveness instead of rotting your liver??

**WARMachine** · 03-18-2009, 09:21 PM

links for source?

**peachfuzz** · 03-18-2009, 10:44 PM

http://carcin.oxfordjournals.org/cgi...ract/22/9/1399

here is one but im not sure if the results in the prostate would be the same as in muscle tissue.

**Phate** · 03-18-2009, 10:49 PM

They don't reduce the number of androgen receptors, nor do they prevent androgens (i.e. testosterone ) from binding to the receptors. They do however prevent the androgen receptor from traveling to the nucleus. This interferes to a degree with the desired effect. The androgen receptor, once bound to the androgen, must make it to the nucleus in order to increase protein synthesis.

so yes, they hinder results, but very minimally, so that leaves you with the choice, would you like an extra 1/2 a pound of muscle on a cycle and risk damaging your liver? personally i would run all the protectants i can, you can always run more cycles but you only have one body and one liver

Title: Silymarin inhibits function of the androgen receptor by reducing nuclearlocalization of the receptor in the human prostate cancer cell line LNCaP.Authors: Zhu W, Zhang JS, Young CY.Source: Carcinogenesis 2001 Sep;22(9):1399-403
Research Summary
Agents with novel mechanisms of blocking androgen receptor (AR) function may be useful for prostate cancer prevention and therapy. Previous studies showed that silibinin (SB), the major active component of Milk Thistle, could inhibit cell proliferation of a human prostate cancer cell line by stopping the cell cycle without causing cell death. This study further demonstrates the potential molecular mechanism by which Milk Thistle acts on androgen-responsive prostate cancer cells by inhibiting function of the AR. We observed that Silymarin (SM) and SB inhibited androgen-stimulated cell proliferation as well as androgen-stimulated secretion of both prostate-specific antigen (PSA) and human glandular kallikrein (hK2).Additionally, for the first time, we show that SM and SB diminished transactivation activity of the AR. However, SM did not affect AR levels and steroid -binding ability of total AR in western blotting and ligand-binding assays. Intriguingly, we found that nuclear AR levels are significantly reduced by SM and SB in the presence of androgens. This study provides a new insight into how Milk Thistle negatively modulates androgen action in prostate cancer cells.

**WARMachine** · 03-18-2009, 10:50 PM

Thanks for explaining it for everyone brother! ^^

**laduem88** · 03-18-2009, 10:51 PM

Originally Posted by Phate

They don't reduce the number of androgen receptors, nor do they prevent androgens (i.e. testosterone ) from binding to the receptors. They do however prevent the androgen receptor from traveling to the nucleus. This interferes to a degree with the desired effect. The androgen receptor, once bound to the androgen, must make it to the nucleus in order to increase protein synthesis.

so yes, they hinder results, but very minimally, so that leaves you with the choice, would you like an extra 1/2 a pound of muscle on a cycle and risk damaging your liver? personally i would run all the protectants i can, you can always run more cycles but you only have one body and one liver

Title: Silymarin inhibits function of the androgen receptor by reducing nuclearlocalization of the receptor in the human prostate cancer cell line LNCaP.Authors: Zhu W, Zhang JS, Young CY.Source: Carcinogenesis 2001 Sep;22(9):1399-403
Research Summary
Agents with novel mechanisms of blocking androgen receptor (AR) function may be useful for prostate cancer prevention and therapy. Previous studies showed that silibinin (SB), the major active component of Milk Thistle, could inhibit cell proliferation of a human prostate cancer cell line by stopping the cell cycle without causing cell death. This study further demonstrates the potential molecular mechanism by which Milk Thistle acts on androgen-responsive prostate cancer cells by inhibiting function of the AR. We observed that Silymarin (SM) and SB inhibited androgen-stimulated cell proliferation as well as androgen-stimulated secretion of both prostate-specific antigen (PSA) and human glandular kallikrein (hK2).Additionally, for the first time, we show that SM and SB diminished transactivation activity of the AR. However, SM did not affect AR levels and steroid-binding ability of total AR in western blotting and ligand-binding assays. Intriguingly, we found that nuclear AR levels are significantly reduced by SM and SB in the presence of androgens. This study provides a new insight into how Milk Thistle negatively modulates androgen action in prostate cancer cells.

i heard if you take something like liv.52 when on orals..make sure its a couple of hours inbetween liv.52 and what ever oral

**peachfuzz** · 03-18-2009, 10:55 PM

what do you have to say about this mr phate?

http://www.hbns.org/news/milkthistle05-02-05.cfm

better safe then sorry tho so what can it hurt?

**Phate** · 03-18-2009, 10:55 PM

Originally Posted by laduem88

i heard if you take something like liv.52 when on orals..make sure its a couple of hours inbetween liv.52 and what ever oral

i don't see why that would matter much, most orals have 6-8 hour half-lifes, so they will still be present when you take the protectant no matter when you take, you could manipulate your dosage so that there isn't any oral present in your system when you take the liv52, but you would mess up blood serum levels doing this

**Phate** · 03-18-2009, 10:57 PM

Originally Posted by peachfuzz

what do you have to say about this mr phate?

http://www.hbns.org/news/milkthistle05-02-05.cfm

better safe then sorry tho so what can it hurt?

agreed, i've always said that milk thistle is unproven with regards to the liver, but we only have one liver, and i would prefer to gain 21lbs from a cycle and know my liver is protected(by several different protectants) then gain 22lbs and risk damage

good study, except their dosage was wayyyy too low, 140mg 3x a day, maybe if they ran 1000mg 3x a day

**peachfuzz** · 03-18-2009, 10:58 PM

sissy

**Phate** · 03-18-2009, 11:00 PM

Originally Posted by peachfuzz

sissy

LOL, maybe, but i'd rather be a living sissy then a dead dumbass

**steropower** · 03-19-2009, 02:13 AM

Liv52 and Milk Thistle kill my gains always.Maybe that's only me.Not only 5%.I would say i do the 1/4 of gains of what i could do without liver protectants.

I thought i had this problem only with orals but now i experience with Tren too.I never had this with test though.

Started some Liv52 a few days ago and suddenly gains stopped.I will cut it again and see how it goes.I don't see any other reason for having this issue.

I do everything else as before.