Help me out here guys, first injectable cycle and I'm stuck

**eyeothetiger** · 06-03-2009, 08:39 AM

Hi guys, I'm stuck. I had my upcoming first injectable cycle all sorted and it was looking as follows:

Weeks 1-4 Dbol 40mg/day
Weeks 1-10 Sust 250mg/week

However following feedback on here I am now unsure what I'm doing. I am sure I am upping the dose of Sust to 500mg/week, that's sorted but the following are giving me a headache:

Should I include the dbol as a kicker or not?, feedback on here said it wouldn't really be needed cos the prop in Sust will give me the kick

How long should I run the Sust for?. Some people say no more than 8 weeks and some say 10 is fine

Is me injecting once per week really going to alter my gains that much?

Sorry for the questions guys but even though forums are great, this is the problem with them, so much different advice you dont know which to follow. Any help very much appreciated...

**Reed** · 06-03-2009, 08:47 AM

Originally Posted by eyeothetiger

Hi guys, I'm stuck. I had my upcoming first injectable cycle all sorted and it was looking as follows:

Weeks 1-4 Dbol 40mg/day
Weeks 1-10 Sust 250mg/week

However following feedback on here I am now unsure what I'm doing. I am sure I am upping the dose of Sust to 500mg/week, that's sorted but the following are giving me a headache:

Should I include the dbol as a kicker or not?, feedback on here said it wouldn't really be needed cos the prop in Sust will give me the kick
That is up to you, if you feel you don't need it the don't, You will however with the added dbol gain more strength and weight
How long should I run the Sust for?. Some people say no more than 8 weeks and some say 10 is fine
Go with 10 weeks
Is me injecting once per week really going to alter my gains that much?
With prop in the blendthe best protocol would be to inject ed or eod as prop peaks within 24-36 hours then tapers from there and will give you more stable blood levels, which means less sides and possibly better gains.
Sorry for the questions guys but even though forums are great, this is the problem with them, so much different advice you dont know which to follow. Any help very much appreciated...

Response in bold, If you cannot inject eod at least 2x a wk.

**chuckt12345** · 06-03-2009, 08:52 AM

why did you start a new thread?

**eyeothetiger** · 06-03-2009, 09:10 AM

Ok, yeah sorry for new thread but didn't wanna confuse you guys with so much in other thread. Reed could you name main benefits of Sust 250?,I'm aware of increased recovery and mass gain but apart from that?...strength?. I'm not like clueless I just wanna be 100% on what is doing what if you get me.

I have 500 dbol tabs open now so will be using them I guess :-)...by the way Reed, awesome pic.

**SilverTest** · 06-03-2009, 09:26 AM

just continu what ur doing , humm ... its ok run the dbol for about 4 weeks even if the susta has prop in it , dbol is a steroid bro not just a tinki winki tablet you take for a little kick , its the breakfast of champions and a pure MASS building steroid that works very efficiently , old guys lived on it lol . so use it , u have it anyway.

do the susta 2 shots every week, one on monday one on thursday . it will be good , it will not give you perfect blood levels , but dont concern yourself with this too much , i have dont it like this in the past and i had no problems and great gains.

sustanon is a testosterone compound , yes it will give you what testosterone actually do lol = strength and size, any test compound will give you that = enanthate , prop , cypionate ..............etc. all the same.

**SilverTest** · 06-03-2009, 09:27 AM

just continu what ur doing , humm ... its ok run the dbol for about 4 weeks even if the susta has prop in it , dbol is a steroid bro not just a tinki winki tablet you take for a little kick , its the breakfast of champions and a pure MASS building steroid that works very efficiently , old guys lived on it lol . so use it , u have it anyway.

do the susta 2 shots every week, one on monday one on thursday . it will be good , it will not give you perfect blood levels , but dont concern yourself with this too much , i have done it like this in the past and i had no problems and great gains.

sustanon is a testosterone compound , yes it will give you what testosterone actually do lol = strength and size, any test compound will give you that = enanthate , prop , cypionate ..............etc. all the same.

***T-MOS*** · 06-03-2009, 09:29 AM

5'10 and ONLY 170. Your body is NOT ready for steroids , you need to be able to get to and maintain your natural potential FIRST or you will be wasting the steroids and your time

You should be able to hold on to 200 lbs NATURALLY. If you can't do that, then any gains you make from this cycle will be short lived.

DIET is your issue right now

READ: If you're over 5'10" and under 170lbs read this...

**Reed** · 06-03-2009, 09:32 AM

EOT, post your current training program and diet that you follow. You do realize that diet is what causes you to gain lean body mass and once at a particular spot you'll have to eat more to gain more. You don't have that in order expect to swell up like a water ballon on these two only to lose it once you come off.

**eyeothetiger** · 06-03-2009, 10:30 AM

Reed diet and training on the way...

**Reed** · 06-03-2009, 10:34 AM

Ok I'll be waiting, don't rush into the cycle my friend. I joined up and waited months and months before starting my first cycle. If you put the hard work in naturally and with a good diet you may not even need juice as I was able to surpass all my roided friends without them.

Patience is the key to success in this game.

**eyeothetiger** · 06-03-2009, 10:38 AM

DIET

Meal 1: Pro/Carb 8am
6 Egg Whites,1 Scoop Of Whey Protein,1 cup oatmeal,2 slices cereal bread.
38g protein / 41g carbs / 4g fat

Meal 2: Pro/Fat 10am
Lean Protein (meat), ¼ cup swiss cheese,green veggies,115g (cooked weight) potatoes,rice or pasta.
42g protein / 81g carbs / 15g fat

Meal 3: pre-workout 12noon
1 1/2 Scoops Whey Protein / 60g (cooked weight) of rice.
30g protein / 54g carbs / 0g fat

1pm workout

Meal 4: Pro/Fat
1.5 Cans of Tuna, 1 Tbsp Full Fat Mayonnaise, Veggies+ 75g (cooked weight) potatoes,rice or pasta.
45g protein / 54g carbs / 13g Fat

Meal 5: Pro/Carb
Chicken Breast, 3/4 cup Brown Rice (uncooked weight)
42g protein / 47g carbs / 3g Fat

Meal 6: PPWO
Boneless Skinless Chicken Breast, 1/2 cup Brown Rice (uncooked weight)
38g protein / 75g carbs / 3g fat

Meal 7: Pro/Fat
Lean Protein of your choice, 1.5 Tbsp Natural Peanut Butter
38g protein / 4g carbs / 14g fat

Meal 8: Before Bed
2 1/2 Scoops of Whey Protein, 1.5 Tbsp. Flax Seed Oil
45g protein / 3g carbs / 16g Fat

Totals as 318 grams protein, 359 grams Carbs, and 68 grams of fat per day and roughly 2900 calories

TRAINING

4 x per week using 5x5 structure.
Per target muscle group =
5x5 reps heavy compound, 2 lots of 2x8 reps lighter hitting same target muscle group.

**eyeothetiger** · 06-03-2009, 10:42 AM

Reed I respect you greatly for staying natural as long as poss but everyone's different hey. I know personally even with me eat loads and the right stuff that my problem is drive and power hence me having my gear ready to go. Also I cant imagine many people on here reached their full natural limit before juicing if they are honest anyway.

**Reed** · 06-03-2009, 10:48 AM

True but doesn't mean you can't

In essence it is your choice just be careful and make sure all your knowledge of these drugs is down pat before taking the step. The more you know now the better off you will be and the less chances of problems occurring or being easier to solve if they do arise.

But like I alway say diet and solid workout routine are the keys to success. Once you reached a goal of desired weight and muscle you will need to continue to diet the way you are now in order to hold AND if you want to progress you will need to eat more and train even harder.

Steroids should not make it easier for you, they should make it and allow you to train harder and push the limits of your abilities. You are super enchanced, why be weak on drugs when those statuses could be achieve w/ a little more work ethic and dedication.

**eyeothetiger** · 06-03-2009, 10:55 AM

Ok all taken on board. I take it that means my diet and training as far as you can see is in check then?. Only other question is how much Nolva should I take each day while on cycle to combat any gyno, I have milk thistle all ready to roll as used to the old dbol .

Oh one more question, I have been given differing answers as to correct pct for this sust/dbol cycle. Could you make it definite for me as trust your advice, getting hold of gear is no problem, one of benefits of living in u.k :-).

**Reed** · 06-03-2009, 11:02 AM

Originally Posted by eyeothetiger

DIET

Meal 1: Pro/Carb 8am
6 Egg Whites,1 Scoop Of Whey Protein,1 cup oatmeal,2 slices cereal bread.
38g protein / 41g carbs / 4g fat

Meal 2: Pro/Fat 10am
Lean Protein (meat), ¼ cup swiss cheese,green veggies,115g (cooked weight) potatoes,rice or pasta.
42g protein / 81g carbs / 15g fat

Meal 3: pre-workout 12noon
1 1/2 Scoops Whey Protein / 60g (cooked weight) of rice.
30g protein / 54g carbs / 0g fat

1pm workout

Meal 4: Pro/Fat
1.5 Cans of Tuna, 1 Tbsp Full Fat Mayonnaise, Veggies+ 75g (cooked weight) potatoes,rice or pasta.
45g protein / 54g carbs / 13g Fat

Meal 5: Pro/Carb
Chicken Breast, 3/4 cup Brown Rice (uncooked weight)
42g protein / 47g carbs / 3g Fat

Meal 6: PPWO
Boneless Skinless Chicken Breast, 1/2 cup Brown Rice (uncooked weight)
38g protein / 75g carbs / 3g fat

Meal 7: Pro/Fat
Lean Protein of your choice, 1.5 Tbsp Natural Peanut Butter
38g protein / 4g carbs / 14g fat

Meal 8: Before Bed
2 1/2 Scoops of Whey Protein, 1.5 Tbsp. Flax Seed Oil
45g protein / 3g carbs / 16g Fat

Totals as 318 grams protein, 359 grams Carbs, and 68 grams of fat per day and roughly 2900 calories

TRAINING

4 x per week using 5x5 structure.
Per target muscle group =
5x5 reps heavy compound, 2 lots of 2x8 reps lighter hitting same target muscle group.

First I can tell your macros are off on this diet. The standard 1/2 cup of rice will not contain 75 grams of carbs in meal 6 as the meal you have prior you eat more but have less carbs. Also your morning meal, check the label on protein amount of the whey, should be around 20 something grams per scoop and most eggs have about 4-6 grams of protein in them so you'd get closer to 50gs in the morning

I get a little confused b/w meal 4-6. Meal 4 list carbs but is labeled pro/fat. Then 3 meals after your workout you label meal 6 as PPWO. Meal 5 would be PPWO.

The last meal it is best to have something that is slower digesting, casein whey protein shake, cottage cheese, red meat w/ the fat to slow digestion

I'm actually impressed with the diet, most people have some shit they be eating like cereal and wholemeal sandwiches. It just needs to be tweaked a bit.

With training program what do your days look like. Like what do you do on monday with exercises included.

**eyeothetiger** · 06-03-2009, 11:06 AM

My training days vary my friend due to personal commitments, first day is always legs though as advised. Will tweak diet and thanks for compliment. My other questions?, apart from milk thistle how much nolva should I take per day on cycle to keep gyno at bay?.PTC for this cycle?, have had suggestions but trust your advice, still cant get over that back, you beast you! :-).

**Reed** · 06-03-2009, 11:09 AM

Originally Posted by eyeothetiger

Ok all taken on board. I take it that means my diet and training as far as you can see is in check then?. Only other question is how much Nolva should I take each day while on cycle to combat any gyno, I have milk thistle all ready to roll as used to the old dbol .

Oh one more question, I have been given differing answers as to correct pct for this sust/dbol cycle. Could you make it definite for me as trust your advice, getting hold of gear is no problem, one of benefits of living in u.k :-).

remember Nolva is a SERM, meaning it with bond to the receptor sites and block estro but will not low estro in the blood

I say your standard nolva/clomid PCT therapy for 4 weeks with 20mg of nolva straight through and 50mg of clomid straight through. Not a big fan of AIs, though they are needed as high estro levels can cause unbearable sides but I feel should only be used during a higher dose cycle. Your body has its own hormones down better than you, me or the doctor.

**Reed** · 06-03-2009, 11:16 AM

Originally Posted by eyeothetiger

My training days vary my friend due to personal commitments, first day is always legs though as advised. Will tweak diet and thanks for compliment. My other questions?, apart from milk thistle how much nolva should I take per day on cycle to keep gyno at bay?.PTC for this cycle?, have had suggestions but trust your advice, still cant get over that back, you beast you! :-).

haha thanks. Will hopefully get better.

I would advise to ditch the milk thistle, it hasn't not be proven to be effective. If you would like something to aid in liver regeneration which once you come off a heavy oral this will happen regardless I'd suggest liv-52. It has the research to back it up and milk thistle does not. Honestly your liver will be just fine if only going for 4 weeks but if you feel the need start it the day AFTER you end the dbol . Trying to give the right info instead of listening to all the noobs and their panicking over their liver being destroyed. Doesn't happen

I'd say 10mg of nolva should cover it but only on a need for basis but i understand if you want to take it through out

**eyeothetiger** · 06-03-2009, 11:25 AM

Reed I'm bit lost on the Nolva and Clomid mate, know what it is and what it does but can you make it clearer what I should take on cycle and off cycle if possible...thanks so much for your continued help yeah

**Reed** · 06-03-2009, 11:27 AM

Ok EOT I'm out for now. My suggestion for you is to take the diet you have there and start a new thread and post it in the diet section. Phate or someone else will come through and help you once they come on line. I except it to be down there when I come back on line later today

Read up on your PCT drugs (understand them and what they do): PCT and Cycle Recomendations: Estrogen, Progesterone and Cortisol control

Tons of info of training so you can tweak what you got: Various Training Techniques

Most if not all of your answers can be found through these threads:
http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=368656

Actually take the time work all the little things out, up your knowledge, start the diet and training for a week or two then hop on cycle. No need to rush cause the more you know now the better you'll be on cycle

**Reed** · 06-03-2009, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by eyeothetiger

Reed I'm bit lost on the Nolva and Clomid mate, know what it is and what it does but can you make it clearer what I should take on cycle and off cycle if possible...thanks so much for your continued help yeah

ok last post for ya

on cycle:
nolva:10mg

PCT: begins 18 days after last injection
4 weeks of nolva and clomid
nolva: 20mg 4 weeks
clomid: 50mg 4 weeks