is nolva and hcg enough for pct?

[Aodha]

Stats: 24 old, 5'8" , 170lbs, 10-15%bf, previous cycles; sustanon , dbol , test e, dbol.


alright, i've done three cycles so far that served me well! keep in mind, i don't do too much, cause i don't wanna explode, just see better than average results. so i keep my cycles small. i was 140 when i started.

(i know i know, small, but i've been a hardgainer ALL my life and gear has been the only thing that's helped me. I lift hard, set records in high school, just a hardgainer.)

i'm planning a Test E @ 400mg/week, and dbol @ 40mg/ week. it'll be my biggest cycle yet. so with just this cycle, i was wondering if i needed more than nolva and hcg ??? i have PLENTY of nolva, and 15000 iu of hcg. and i know how i'm gonna run it, i was just wondering again, if that's enough. should i add clomid, or anything else. i might even decide to take less dbol for the first 4 weeks. anyways, any thoughts or experience would be much appreciated.

[Aodha]

Also, when does one use an AI? I mean, how big of dosage, on average, does it take for someone to wanna seriously consider an AI? If they're not gyno prone of course...

[stevey_6t9]

Stats: 24 old, 5'8" , 170lbs, 10-15%bf, previous cycles; sustanon , dbol , test e, dbol.


alright, i've done three cycles so far that served me well! keep in mind, i don't do too much, cause i don't wanna explode, just see better than average results. so i keep my cycles small. i was 140 when i started.

(i know i know, small, but i've been a hardgainer ALL my life and gear has been the only thing that's helped me. I lift hard, set records in high school, just a hardgainer.)

i'm planning a Test E @ 400mg/week, and dbol @ 40mg/ week. it'll be my biggest cycle yet. so with just this cycle, i was wondering if i needed more than nolva and hcg??? i have PLENTY of nolva, and 15000 iu of hcg. and i know how i'm gonna run it, i was just wondering again, if that's enough. should i add clomid, or anything else. i might even decide to take less dbol for the first 4 weeks. anyways, any thoughts or experience would be much appreciated.

uve done three cycles and ur 170lbs? man u gota look at ur diet and training before you hit it up again.

[pwnflow]

Agreed. I am yet to do my first cycle am I am 198! Better invest in some food.

[LeroyB]

Yup - Steroids are not going to help you bud.
Diet.
Post an example here or in the diet section. Leave AAS alone - for a lot of reasons.

[ajd31886]

Yes. Nolva and HCG will be just fine for your PCT. I am currently in my PCT and am running the same meds like this:

Tamoxifen @ 20mg 4wks
HCG @ 1000iu EOD 4wks

I used to use clomiphene in place of Tamox. Due to the neg. sides I was unable to continue clomiphene. I am in the 2nd week of my PCT and I haven't felt better in my life! My libido has not seen a slight drop and mood is excellent. The HCg gets the testicles growing back in just a matter of days. Not to mention that you will have noticeably larger loads...my girl loves this! I do notice a slight drop in strength and pumps. Run the 2 meds as listed below and you will be back in no time!

One of my biggest problems is and has always been diet. Gotta make sure you eat clean and eat alot, especially when on cycle. I am always eating healthy organic fresh meats, fruits and veggies and carbs come from Whole wheats/Grains. One thing that helped me out was to make a list of all your favorite foods and wrtie out your meal plan week by week and ensure you not only get enough food, but you can track calories, protein, carbs etc. This is huge. WRITE IT ALL OUT and make a habit of it. It may take some time to adjust to a new diet, but you will adjust in no time and the results will speak for themselves. hope this helps bro. If you have any questions about anything post em and i'll be more than happy to help out. I am 24 myself and have learned everything the hard way...it has made me a better person so I can't complain!

[ajd31886]

Yes. Nolva and HCG will be just fine for your PCT. I am currently in my PCT and am running the same meds like this:

Tamoxifen @ 20mgED 4wks
HCG @ 1000iu EOD 4wks

I used to use clomiphene in place of Tamox. Due to the neg. sides I was unable to continue clomiphene. I am in the 2nd week of my PCT and I haven't felt better in my life! My libido has not seen a slight drop and mood is excellent. The HCg gets the testicles growing back in just a matter of days. Not to mention that you will have noticeably larger loads...my girl loves this! I do notice a slight drop in strength and pumps. Run the 2 meds as listed below and you will be back in no time!

One of my biggest problems is and has always been diet. Gotta make sure you eat clean and eat alot, especially when on cycle. I am always eating healthy organic fresh meats, fruits and veggies and carbs come from Whole wheats/Grains. One thing that helped me out was to make a list of all your favorite foods and wrtie out your meal plan week by week and ensure you not only get enough food, but you can track calories, protein, carbs etc. This is huge. WRITE IT ALL OUT and make a habit of it. It may take some time to adjust to a new diet, but you will adjust in no time and the results will speak for themselves. hope this helps bro. If you have any questions about anything post em and i'll be more than happy to help out. I am 24 myself and have learned everything the hard way...it has made me a better person so I can't complain!

[Kibble]

Yes. Nolva and HCG will be just fine for your PCT. I am currently in my PCT and am running the same meds like this:

Tamoxifen @ 20mg 4wks
HCG @ 1000iu EOD 4wks
I used to use clomiphene in place of Tamox. Due to the neg. sides I was unable to continue clomiphene. I am in the 2nd week of my PCT and I haven't felt better in my life! My libido has not seen a slight drop and mood is excellent. The HCg gets the testicles growing back in just a matter of days. Not to mention that you will have noticeably larger loads...my girl loves this! I do notice a slight drop in strength and pumps. Run the 2 meds as listed below and you will be back in no time!

One of my biggest problems is and has always been diet. Gotta make sure you eat clean and eat alot, especially when on cycle. I am always eating healthy organic fresh meats, fruits and veggies and carbs come from Whole

wheats/Grains. One thing that helped me out was to make a list of all your favorite foods and wrtie out your meal plan week by week and ensure you not only get enough food, but you can track calories, protein, carbs etc. This is huge. WRITE IT ALL OUT and make a habit of it. It may take some time to adjust to a new diet, but you will adjust in no time and the results will speak for themselves. hope this helps bro. If you have any questions about anything post em and i'll be more than happy to help out. I am 24 myself and have learned everything the hard way...it has made me a better person so I can't complain!

EVERYTHING, and I mean EVERYTHING... that I have read on this site says to use hCG during the cycle, and not during PCT. Also, 1,000iu EOD sounds like a LOT for 4 weeks.

[pwnflow]

EVERYTHING, and I mean EVERYTHING... that I have read on this site says to use hCG during the cycle, and not during PCT. Also, 1,000iu EOD sounds like a LOT for 4 weeks.

I donno about this site but using hcg in pct is quite commom from what I have read. But yes that's a lot. It could actually desensitize the testicles.

[Kibble]

As little as 500iu EOD can desensitize the testicles. Where have you read a study that this is so popular (to use hCG for PCT)? I want to read it?

[pwnflow]

As little as 500iu EOD can desensitize the testicles. Where have you read a study that this is so popular (to use hCG for PCT)? I want to read it?

Anabolics. The books series by William llewyllem. (spelling might be wrong). You can read an article about it on his forum body of science.

Also have read many logs.

[MR10X]

As little as 500iu EOD can desensitize the testicles. Where have you read a study that this is so popular (to use hCG for PCT)? I want to read it?

What do you mean desensitize? It stimulates them directly,if HCG doesnt work the Nolvadex and clomid wont either.

[stevey_6t9]

250iu twice a week for last 4 weeks of cycle.

[Kibble]

MR10X,
I am confused about what you are saying. hCG mimics LH, which causes the Leydig cells in the gonads to produce testosterone . I am trying to find links to studies about desensytizing. Give me a few minutes. Clomid and Nolva CAN bring back the natural testosterone production without the use of hCG. Again, I am confused about what you are trying to convey

[dec11]

EVERYTHING, and I mean EVERYTHING... that I have read on this site says to use hCG during the cycle, and not during PCT. Also, 1,000iu EOD sounds like a LOT for 4 weeks.

that guy is advocating this in alot of threads, i also think 1000iu eod for 4wks is way too much and not what the vets recommended to me, 500iu e5d while on cycle, or 250iu every 2-3 days

[Kibble]

that guy is advocating this in alot of threads, i also think 1000iu eod for 4wks is way too much and not what the vets recommended to me, 500iu e5d while on cycle, or 250iu every 2-3 days

Exactly bro. Glad we are on the same page

[Hazard]

doing more than 500iu's in one injection MAY be counter productive and actually damage the testes via desensitization.

I would certainly never do 1000iu's in one injection......

I wish more people would read swifto's thread on HCG .....

~Haz~

[dec11]

doing more than 500iu's in one injection MAY be counter productive and actually damage the testes via desensitization.

I would certainly never do 1000iu's in one injection......

I wish more people would read swifto's thread on HCG .....

~Haz~

yep, i'll second tht

[MR10X]

MR10X,
I am confused about what you are saying. hCG mimics LH, which causes the Leydig cells in the gonads to produce testosterone. I am trying to find links to studies about desensytizing. Give me a few minutes. Clomid and Nolva CAN bring back the natural testosterone production without the use of hCG. Again, I am confused about what you are trying to convey

Yes Nolvadex and Clomid stimulates test production,which is why i used in the later part of my cycle.My balls didnt shrink during my cycle probably because of the Nolvadex. I dont like a lot of Clomid,it has some bad side effects that Nolvadex doesnt have like it can cause gyno and it effects your eyesite with higher doses. HCG is all thats needed to get your balls stimulated and producing test for PCT,and you need to stop taking drugs alltogether after the HCG so your body can get back to normal.I am doing 500iu of HCG EOD. I dont think you need HCG and Nolvadex together unless your getting gyno,theres no point in it.

[Kibble]

Thank God you guys came here "Hazard, Declan". I thought I was one of the "Last Mohicans" of Swifto's hCG ideas. I had the basics of hCG and pct down before I built my aas cycle

[Kibble]

MR10X, hCG is used during cycle. After cycle, continue hCG until up to 72 hours before PCT. Once PCT starts, stop the hCG and start a basic Nolva/Clomid PCT. It is not that difficult

[MR10X]

MR10X, hCG is used during cycle. After cycle, continue hCG until up to 72 hours before PCT. Once PCT starts, stop the hCG and start a basic Nolva/Clomid PCT. It is not that difficult

Why use HCG during a cycle instead of nolvadex ,nolvadex stimulates test and also stops gyno while your on a cycle with a high testerone level that has more test to convert to estrogen? Hcg wont help with estrogen issues.

[dec11]

Why use HCG during a cycle instead of nolvadex,nolvadex stimulates test and also stops gyno while your on a cycle with a high testerone level that has more test to convert to estrogen? Hcg wont help with estrogen issues.

i knw you have said you've done this for along time, im not disbelieving you but would like to see proof and more opinions on the subject

[Hazard]

You will stop producing testosterone ..... even while taking nolvadex durring cycle. You will also stop producing LH/FSH..... there is a delicate balance to fully recovering after a cycle. HCG durring cycle will keep your LH/FSH up - you stop taking it prior to PCT and utilize nolva/clomid to jump start your test production.

Too much HCG can have the opposite effect..... thats why it's not recommended going over 500iu's.

Nolvadex can be utilized durring cycle as an estrogen blocker but it's not going to keep you producing natty levels of testosterone while your injecting exogenous testosterone.....

~Haz~

[MR10X]

There seems to be 2 different views on whether to use HCG during a cycle or not,my opinion is use Nolvadex instead during a cycle,and HCG during PCT to get your test production going again. Your body still has to get to a normal state as long as your using some kind of drugs it cant do that. I have ended 8 week cycles with no PCT at all and not had a problem. And it doesnt matter whether you were using 500mg of test a week or 1000mg your body stops producing test because your level is above normal. You can use an AI like letro during a cycle to stop estrogen production but i have had issues with that Cialis wouldnt fix.

[MR10X]

You will stop producing testosterone ..... even while taking nolvadex durring cycle. You will also stop producing LH/FSH..... there is a delicate balance to fully recovering after a cycle. HCG durring cycle will keep your LH/FSH up - you stop taking it prior to PCT and utilize nolva/clomid to jump start your test production.

Too much HCG can have the opposite effect..... thats why it's not recommended going over 500iu's.

Nolvadex can be utilized durring cycle as an estrogen blocker but it's not going to keep you producing natty levels of testosterone while your injecting exogenous testosterone.....

~Haz~

NOLVADEX is well tolerated in males with breast cancer. Reports from the literature and case reports suggest that the safety profile of NOLVADEX in males is similar to that seen in women. Loss of libido and impotence have resulted in discontinuation of tamoxifen therapy in male patients. Also, in oligospermic males treated with tamoxifen, LH, FSH, testosterone and estrogen levels were elevated. No significant clinical changes were reported.
Why do think HCG will keep you producing test while on a cycle and Nolvadex wont.

[closegrip921]

in the right doses and spanned in right time it should be sufficient, i recommend hcg DURING the cycle tho and nolva 2 weeks after

[MR10X]

I think you should use Nolvadex during a cycle,especially if your using a high dose of testerone . It will keep you from getting gyno whereas HCG wont. Use HCG after your cycle to stimulate your own test production, and you can add Nolvadex if you like but it isnt necessary.

[Aodha]

wow, alot of info. i was actually just wondering if i needed more than that, and i think someone said nolva and hcg should be fine. i was planning on running the hcg the last two weeks of cycle and two weeks after cycle, then four weeks of nolva. i ran that with my other cycles and it seemed to work out fine. and yes, my diet is in check for sure. it has been for quite some time now. to those that weren't listening, i was a seriously hardgainer! i know it's easy to say, just keep your diet in check. but it wasn't that simple for me. and again, i don't wanna explode from gear, that's why i'm purposely 170 right now. i really like my look right now, i just wanna reach 180 and then maintain. so i figure i'll be up to 188ish on cycle and come down to 180 after pct.

again, i was still wondering for shikkz and giggles, whats the average dosage one would need to wanna consider running an AI in cycle? idk, maybe someone answered and i missed it. i'll read back again.

thanks for all your input, i appreciate it, even when you tell me i'm too small or young. it lets me know you care and are legit in your advice.

[firsttimer22]

MR10X,
I am confused about what you are saying. hCG mimics LH, which causes the Leydig cells in the gonads to produce testosterone. I am trying to find links to studies about desensytizing. Give me a few minutes. Clomid and Nolva CAN bring back the natural testosterone production without the use of hCG. Again, I am confused about what you are trying to convey

im confused on hcg during cycle or during pct...this thread suggest pct and its a very interesting one...check it out

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=209758

[MR10X]

If your on a long cycle you can use HCG during the cycle to keep your balls stimulated by using a small anount like 250-500iu every 3 or 4 days. It mimics LH only and stimulates the balls directly. Nolvadex on the other hand also increases your FSH hormone too, and binds to your estrogen receptors to prevent gyno. Using too much HCG for too long can cause problems.

[anabolic1979]

U ca def use hcg for pct. That's what most people I know use it for and other than this board every other thing I have read says its the best thing to use for pct

[dec11]

U ca def use hcg for pct. That's what most people I know use it for and other than this board every other thing I have read says its the best thing to use for pct

this is bad advice, you dont use it for pct, you use it leading up to pct, hcg can suppress aswell

[c-Z]

I would recommend both nolva and clomid for pct. no hcg though... however some choose not to run clomid due to side affects.... Its your call... it definitely wouldnt hurt.

[ajd31886]

I first became a member of the board and I believe my first post was to the effect of "Help HRT doc over prescribing meds" in which I stated the PCT meds and dosing instructions coming from the HRT doc. (His prior practice was as an Endo, as was his father who also runs the HRT clinic) Not a soul responded to me. I went and reposted in PCT section and still nothing helpful. I then went ahead and throughly read the post that swifto posted about PCT. As far as the Nolva and Clomid went my regimen was in accodinance with his. The only discrepencie was with the HCG and whether to run in post or while on. Since there was some differences in dosing and timing I consulted the Doc. He told me due to my age (24) and with my hormone deficiencies this is going to be fine. As far as the desensitization issue goes he advised that this comes from prolonged use of HCG (Well over 4wks). Now, since I am not one to just take someones word for it just because they are a "Doctor" I have had many issuues in the past in which I have corrected docs and so called medical professionals on how they diagnosed and assesed my symptoms, and I must say, that we know our bodies best and with some basic knowledge we should be able to narrow down what may be causing such symptoms, unfortunately we cannot write our own scripts. Anyways... I consulted my old chiropractor who has funded, but does not operate, one of the biggest HRT businesses I know of. He told me that he personally runs the HCG throughout his whole cycle with a low dose of test cyp and never comes off (He is also about 52yrs old). He did consult one of the experts for me and said that it would be fine to run it in PCT as long as there was a SERM (Tamox, Clomiphene) used in conjunction. As this would somehow prevent any desensitizing. The desensitization studies that have been conducted have not stated whether or not a SERM was used in conjunction with the HCG, but rather just the HCG @ X dose for X amount of time. I felt comfortable and just went with it and used up the meds I had on hand and let me tell you, coming off was never so easy. I had minimal gain losses altho strength decreased most noticeably. My libido never decreased (Actually was more of an animal while on the PCT meds than on cycle) and my BF% dropped significantly. Apparently the use of HCG "unlocks" adipose deposits, forcing the body to obtain extra calories from this source which is why my mid section appears to be trimming down.

Bottom line, everyone is different. We can only take in the information that is accesible to us and makes most sense to the individual. As far as this HCG issue goes, I feel there is no right or wrong here. Until someone can produce a source that shows HCG studies in conjunction with a SERM leading to cell desesitization, I will have to go with the professionals on this one and say that it is ok to run HCG in PCT. Whether somone else chooses to take this advice or not it is up to them. I personally see no problems with running the HCG while on cycle and will probably have the Doc send over another bottle when it gets time for me to run it last 4 wks of my cycle.

It just gets to me to see someone get on the defensive and state that I am giving "Bad Advice" when it clearly is not. IF anything I did the prudent reasearch and was at least able to backup why I posted the info that I posted. Most simply state "Well thats not what it says to do in his post". Get out there and do more research before just going off what you read in some sticky, it may be logical and make sense but that doesn't necessarily rule out additional suggestions.