nolva or letro?

**mg1228** · 03-29-2010, 08:30 AM

hey guys--so i start week 12 today--125mg prop eod and week 5 of winny @100mg

been running l-dex since week 2--started at .25mg eod and have gradually increased to where i am now which is .5mg ed---(gyno prone)

my nipples are sensitive and have small lump behind left nipple and maybe even behind right nipple---(this has been the case fo about a week and a half)

took 40mg nolva this morning--was gonna run 5 days and then lower to 20mg ed thru pct--(got 2 weeks left on cycle)

my question is---should i stop the l-dex while on nolva? (also on 250iu hcg 3 times a week for the past 4 weeks)

also have letro on hand--

what do u suggest? i can also stop cycle short if need b..

thanks for the help

**Just2Big** · 03-29-2010, 11:07 AM

I would stay on and run nova at 40 a day for 2 weeks till your cycle ends then do PCT with it. I know nova hinders the effects of Adex but I dont think the Adex hinders the Nova. So I would just stay on the Adex, or you could drop it. But it shouldent hurt and your really not wasting any money for 2 more weeks. The nova should at the least stop it from getting any worse if not eliminate it. Run pct then if it dont get any better you could then try a Letro reversal in pct or after. Has it gotten worse since you upd the Adex dose?

**mg1228** · 03-29-2010, 11:16 AM

i have been gradually increasing adex--only noticed it lately--but it really bothered me last 2 days---really sore and noticible lump when i feel for it--

had it last cycle too--prob never went away but was just alot smaller--couldnt feel it

**Just2Big** · 03-29-2010, 11:29 AM

I am on week 5 of cycle and I noticed a pea size lump 2 weeks ago. Im not sure if its from this cycle because Im on test e and its early. So I think it was my last and I didnt notice. But I used 40 nova a day for a weeks then 20 day for a week and its gone. I was not on a A.I. durring my cycle but I started ADEX at the same time as the nova. I ran ADEX at .5 for a couple days then .25 ed for a couple and then .25 Eod now. The lump is gone. I think Adex takes like a week to kick in so I think the nova took care of it. I have 10 weeks left on cycle so I stopped the Nova because it lower Insulin like groth factors that can hinder your gains. Where as a A.I. you can control more because your only adjusting your estrogen. You can lower it a little or a lot but you have control. Your tword the end of your cycle so I would just run it into PCT.

**Swifto** · 03-29-2010, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by Just2Big

I would stay on and run nova at 40 a day for 2 weeks till your cycle ends then do PCT with it. I know nova hinders the effects of Adex but I dont think the Adex hinders the Nova. So I would just stay on the Adex, or you could drop it. But it shouldent hurt and your really not wasting any money for 2 more weeks. The nova should at the least stop it from getting any worse if not eliminate it. Run pct then if it dont get any better you could then try a Letro reversal in pct or after. Has it gotten worse since you upd the Adex dose?

Exactly why I dont use Arimidex anymore. Honestly, I dont know why people use Arimidex when better AI's that are available and cheap exist, such as Aromasin .

If you then encounter gyno, up your dose of Aromasin or run Tamox and Rolax and not then hinder the effects of the AI.

**Just2Big** · 03-29-2010, 11:38 AM

You can still get good gains durring PCT. I would try the nova and PCT and as long as it dont get worse finsh it out. If it bothers you after try a Letro reversal. But if you do the Letro reversal now I dont think your really going to get anything out of your last 2 weeks and your PCT. It will inihalate you estrogen. You just have to decide if its so bad you want it gone right now or can you wait a month+ for your 2 weeks left and PCT. I think I would try to finish and just check daily to make sure it dont get worse.

**Just2Big** · 03-29-2010, 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by Swifto

Exactly why I dont use Arimidex anymore. Honestly, I dont know why people use Arimidex when better AI's that are available and cheap exist, such as Aromasin .

If you then encounter gyno, up your dose of Aromasin or run Tamox and Rolax and not then hinder the effects of the AI.

Yea I found that out after I bought everything. Wish I would have got Aromasin. Swift what do you think about Tamox hindering your gains because it lowers Insulin like grow facors? A lot of people use it then finish cycle with 10 or 20 a day Tamox. How bad do you think that can hinder gains?

**Just2Big** · 03-29-2010, 11:44 AM

MG1128. I have read Nova will hinder Adex by about 30% so you still would be getting a effect from the ADEX it would just be lower. But Swifto's right. Next time its Aromasin 4 sure.

**Swifto** · 03-29-2010, 12:18 PM

Originally Posted by Just2Big

Yea I found that out after I bought everything. Wish I would have got Aromasin. Swift what do you think about Tamox hindering your gains because it lowers Insulin like grow facors? A lot of people use it then finish cycle with 10 or 20 a day Tamox. How bad do you think that can hinder gains?

Hardly.

Tamoxifen doesnt need to be used unless signs of gyno are present.

AI's are superoir IMHO. Unless one wants water retention (estrogen), for things like powerlifting, weight gain etc... Or to improve lipids, but then diet can be used to improve lipids.

I keep Tamox on hand (gyno signs) and use it for PCT, thats all its uses for me.

**Just2Big** · 03-29-2010, 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by Swifto

Hardly.

Tamoxifen doesnt need to be used unless signs of gyno are present.

AI's are superoir IMHO. Unless one wants water retention (estrogen), for things like powerlifting, weight gain etc... Or to improve lipids, but then diet can be used to improve lipids.

I keep Tamox on hand (gyno signs) and use it for PCT, thats all its uses for me.

Dont mean to Hijack this thread.

Im not sure if HARDLY was your answer for nova effecting your gains. If so thanks for the answer. if not....

Im sorry thats what I ment. If you get gyno signs and use it after that. I read people who get gyno use it for 40 day for a week or two then drop it to 10-20 day for the rest of the cycle to keep gyno away. Instead of a A.I. Now I have just used it to get rid of my gyno but dropped it and Im running Adex now. So would you suggest after gyno signs, continue to use the Tamox through the rest of the cycle. Or just till gyno goes away and then go back to a A.I.?

Also if you suggest staying on Tamox the rest of your cycle after signs of gyno Im curious to know what you think of its effects on insulin like grown factors and hindering your gains.

**dock holliday** · 03-29-2010, 12:35 PM

Originally Posted by Swifto

Hardly.

Tamoxifen doesnt need to be used unless signs of gyno are present.

AI's are superoir IMHO. Unless one wants water retention (estrogen), for things like powerlifting, weight gain etc... Or to improve lipids, but then diet can be used to improve lipids.

I keep Tamox on hand (gyno signs) and use it for PCT, thats all its uses for me.

im running tamoxifen 10mg daily because i don't want to develop gyno and have to correct it. i figured a low dose will just prevent it. i don't want to find out if im gyno prone and so far no signs of gyno and good gains. however, i do have water retention.

i was told to get the liquid arimidex , but i just read that nolva will hender the arimidex. so if i get the arimidex, should i just stop the nolva until pct?

also, can you run arimidex during post cycle HCG ? and continue it with the 4 weeks of nolvadex /clomid PCT?

**bigpapabuff** · 03-29-2010, 12:42 PM

even if you have gyno concerns I would save the nolva for your pct, during cycle I would go with liquidex or exemestane to keep gyno away, I think those are the best AI's to use.

**Just2Big** · 03-29-2010, 12:44 PM

MG1228 Hope were not jacking your thread. I figure you will be learning as well since this questions are simular to your situation.

Dock, I would run the Adex and drop Nova. Save it for your PCT. Dont run Adex it in your PCT.

**RoadToRecovery** · 03-29-2010, 12:47 PM

Mg - do you have any pictures up in the members pictures forum? Id like to see your results.

**Swifto** · 03-29-2010, 12:49 PM

Originally Posted by Just2Big

Dont mean to Hijack this thread.

Im not sure if HARDLY was your answer for nova effecting your gains. If so thanks for the answer. if not....

Im sorry thats what I ment. If you get gyno signs and use it after that. I read people who get gyno use it for 40 day for a week or two then drop it to 10-20 day for the rest of the cycle to keep gyno away. Instead of a A.I. Now I have just used it to get rid of my gyno but dropped it and Im running Adex now. So would you suggest after gyno signs, continue to use the Tamox through the rest of the cycle. Or just till gyno goes away and then go back to a A.I.?

Also if you suggest staying on Tamox the rest of your cycle after signs of gyno Im curious to know what you think of its effects on insulin like grown factors and hindering your gains.

You need to address the probel directly of why you were able to get gyno signs. The most logical way of cambatting gyno and estorgenic sides is prevention. Not treatment IMHO.

If you get signs, start at 40mg/ED until the signs have gone, then 10-20mg/ED (some can use 10mg/ED, others 20mg/ED) until the cycles end. If you decide to use an AI too, then use Aromaisn.

Nest time you cycle use an AI and prevent the problem from occurring.

**Swifto** · 03-29-2010, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by dock holliday

im running tamoxifen 10mg daily because i don't want to develop gyno and have to correct it. i figured a low dose will just prevent it. i don't want to find out if im gyno prone and so far no signs of gyno and good gains. however, i do have water retention.

i was told to get the liquid arimidex , but i just read that nolva will hender the arimidex. so if i get the arimidex, should i just stop the nolva until pct?

also, can you run arimidex during post cycle HCG? and continue it with the 4 weeks of nolvadex/clomid PCT?

If you combine the Arimiex/Tamox, use more Arimidex, thats what is reduced by 35-40% by the Tamoxifen.

I dont see a reason for you to use an AI now. You've got a little water, deal with it, its not that bad. No extra salt, up your cardio and watch your BP.

Nesxt time you cycle use Aromasin at 10mg/ED or EOD.

**Just2Big** · 03-29-2010, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by Swifto

You need to address the probel directly of why you were able to get gyno signs. The most logical way of cambatting gyno and estorgenic sides is prevention. Not treatment IMHO.

If you get signs, start at 40mg/ED until the signs have gone, then 10-20mg/ED (some can use 10mg/ED, others 20mg/ED) until the cycles end. If you decide to use an AI too, then use Aromaisn.

Nest time you cycle use an AI and prevent the problem from occurring.

Ok. My gyno is gone now and I switched to Adex. Should I go back to using Nova 20 a day or just stay on the Adex.25 EOD I was not on either before my gyno.

**Swifto** · 03-29-2010, 01:01 PM

I'd go with Arimidex and see how things get on. Arimidex will reduce E2 quite quickly, but it takes a little while to attain stable blood plasma levels.

How long do you have left of your cycle?

**Just2Big** · 03-29-2010, 01:05 PM

Im on week 5 and have 10 weeks left. I think my gyno was from a cycle years ago.

**Just2Big** · 03-29-2010, 01:08 PM

MG1228. From what is gathered I think you should just run the nova now and use it into PCT. I would run the Adex as well, it will be less effective but wont hurt. If your still botherd or gets worse try a Letro reversal after or durring PCT.

**dock holliday** · 03-29-2010, 01:26 PM

Originally Posted by Just2Big

MG1228 Hope were not jacking your thread. I figure you will be learning as well since this questions are simular to your situation.

Dock, I would run the Adex and drop Nova. Save it for your PCT. Dont run Adex it in your PCT.

when i get the liquid arimidex i will stop the tamoxifen until pct. that seems like the intelligent move. thanks for the advice.

this site rocks.

**mg1228** · 03-29-2010, 01:29 PM

Originally Posted by Just2Big

MG1228. From what is gathered I think you should just run the nova now and use it into PCT. I would run the Adex as well, it will be less effective but wont hurt. If your still botherd or gets worse try a Letro reversal after or durring PCT.

ok good--started nolva@ 40mg today and will do 5 days then lower to 10mg-20mg till pct---then do 20mg ed thru pct along with tormiphene

if that dont do it i will go with letro---hate that shit though--harsh

**mg1228** · 03-29-2010, 01:32 PM

Originally Posted by RoadToRecovery

Mg - do you have any pictures up in the members pictures forum? Id like to see your results.

whats up---dont have any up yet--but plan on putting up some couple weeks into pct so u all can tell me if there is a difference--

so far im up 15lbs---been eating right at tdee and super clean---just hope i can hold on to 10 of it after pct

**mg1228** · 03-29-2010, 01:36 PM

thanks for the quick replies---just2big and swifto

**Just2Big** · 03-29-2010, 01:50 PM

No prob. And I didnt want to thread jack but swifto was on and was trying to get some input since he knows his shit. Do the nova for 5 days at 40 and see if its better. If there no itch or puff drop down I guess. If its still there I would stay at 40. I myself would any way since PCT would be starting in only 1 more week. I have read a lot of people clear up lite gyno in PCT anyway so hope it goes away for you then. No 1 wants to run Letro unless you have to. To be honost If mine was still there I would not run a letro reversal. It was only a pea and didnt itch or bother me. I only did the nova so it wouldnt get worse till I got my Adex. Hope I ride out this cycle with no more sides. Good luck on yours man. post them pics as well. Later.

**Just2Big** · 03-29-2010, 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by mg1228

ok good--started nolva@ 40mg today and will do 5 days then lower to 10mg-20mg till pct---then do 20mg ed thru pct along with tormiphene

if that dont do it i will go with letro---hate that shit though--harsh

Why 20 Nova in PCT istead of 40/40/20/20? I really dont know much about Tormiphene. Any info on it?

**Just2Big** · 03-29-2010, 02:01 PM

I just read the Tormiphene profile and it said that it destroys gyno & stops it from froming. It is said not to use for PCT. Is raises SHBC wich in turn lower circulating test. If anything use it durring cycle. Check out the profile. I would look into using it now until PCT. Get clomid to take and up your nova to 40/40/20/20

**mg1228** · 03-29-2010, 02:02 PM

Originally Posted by Just2Big

Why 20 Nova in PCT istead of 40/40/20/20? I really dont know much about Tormiphene. Any info on it?

the 20mg ed is swifto's advice(but for 6 weeks) aswell as the tore---idk much about it either but he likes it---and i didnt really like the clomid last time so thats why im runnin tore this go round---let u know what i think---and good luck with ur cycle

**mg1228** · 03-29-2010, 02:03 PM

says not to run in pct? i read it in swiftos thread at the top of the page

**mg1228** · 03-29-2010, 02:07 PM

actually it is not a sticky---maybe swifto can post the link here(idk how to do it) and i think it was called "tamox clomid toremifene which for what?"

**bjohnson1968** · 03-29-2010, 02:28 PM

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=414904

this is the link your looking for mg

**RoadToRecovery** · 03-29-2010, 02:35 PM

Originally Posted by mg1228

whats up---dont have any up yet--but plan on putting up some couple weeks into pct so u all can tell me if there is a difference--

so far im up 15lbs---been eating right at tdee and super clean---just hope i can hold on to 10 of it after pct

Keep me posted.

**mg1228** · 03-29-2010, 03:24 PM

Originally Posted by bjohnson1968

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=414904

this is the link your looking for mg

thank u

**mg1228** · 03-29-2010, 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by RoadToRecovery

Keep me posted.

sure will

**bjohnson1968** · 03-29-2010, 03:49 PM

just my .02 I had no luck with adex and my gyno once it developed I also had no luck with nolva however with that being said I did adex for two weeks and ended up at 1mg ed did nothing also overlapped adex with nolva 50mgs 3 days then 40 mgs for ten also did nothing for improving the gyno started letro following c-bino's protocal and my left nip gyno lump is gone right nip has shrunk by at least 2/3rds in size I'm currently just starting my 2nd week at 2.5 mgs.
Now as far as gains go I was 222-225 when I started letro and Im still at the same weight surely I've lost water retention sinse starting the letro and strength is still progressing.
sex drive well now thats different it tanked however it seems now that I started hcg its back idk that could be in my head but if it works i dont care where it came from

Peace and good luck bro

**Just2Big** · 03-29-2010, 04:11 PM

Originally Posted by mg1228

says not to run in pct? i read it in swiftos thread at the top of the page

I read the profile on steroid .com main page. It said do not use in PCT. But maybe its old and Im sure swifto has done reaserch and maybe has personal experience with it. IDK. Send him a PM about it. Also you should read the profile. Just my 2 cents. Swifto knows his shit, send him a pm.

**Swifto** · 03-29-2010, 04:34 PM

Tore is excellent for PCT.

Tore 120/120/100/60/60
Tamox 20/20/20/20/20/20

All SERMs raise SHBG to my knowledge, but its not that much of a factor. Some is needed for testosterone synthesis during PCT.

If it becomes a problem (it shouldnt) run some Davinil.

**Swifto** · 03-29-2010, 04:36 PM

Originally Posted by Just2Big

I read the profile on steroid.com main page. It said do not use in PCT. But maybe its old and Im sure swifto has done reaserch and maybe has personal experience with it. IDK. Send him a PM about it. Also you should read the profile. Just my 2 cents. Swifto knows his shit, send him a pm.

There is no reason not to use Toremifene during PCT.

Its safer than Clomid and Tamox too. Less occular/geno toxicity than 1st Gen SERMs.

**Just2Big** · 03-29-2010, 04:38 PM

Originally Posted by Swifto

Tore is excellent for PCT.

Tore 120/120/100/60/60
Tamox 20/20/20/20/20/20

All SERMs raise SHBG to my knowledge, but its not that much of a factor. Some is needed for testosterone synthesis during PCT.

If it becomes a problem (it shouldnt) run some Davinil.

Sounds good. I want some Tore now. Exspecially since my clomid is a few years old. But thats what I got. Good look swifto.

**mg1228** · 03-29-2010, 05:10 PM

Originally Posted by Swifto

Tore is excellent for PCT.

Tore 120/120/100/60/60
Tamox 20/20/20/20/20/20

All SERMs raise SHBG to my knowledge, but its not that much of a factor. Some is needed for testosterone synthesis during PCT.

If it becomes a problem (it shouldnt) run some Davinil.

this is my pct--thanks swifto

swifto--do u think what im doin for the gyno is ok? 40mg nolva .5mg adex ed till gyno resides and then lower to 20mg thru pct(no adex in pct)