Danger when doing cardio with AS

[The Natural]

I have heard from many sources, that it is dangerous to do cardio when on AS!!!
It is said that your heart size increases, wich is not a good thing, because of lack of room for the heart...

IS THIS TRUE, brothers and sisters???

I was thinking of doing medium intensity cardio after training for about 10-15min, but after hearing this I dont know anymore....

Somebody, PLEASE enlighten me!!!

[Decoder]

use the search button i already anwsered this on another thread today.

[01dragonslayer]

I can see how that can be a theory. The heart is one big muscle, but I've never heard of that. I always do cardio when I cycle and had no probs. Definately something to do some research on.

[painintheazz]

Personally I think it is better to do cardio than not. I am sure cardio at 90% of your max HR wouldn't be good. But at 65% I don't see any danger even if you heart size is increased.

Pain

[Big Rhino]

I see the makins of a dumbass rumor floating around all the boards


RHINO

[Decoder]

Originally posted by 01dragonslayer
I can see how that can be a theory. The heart is one big muscle, but I've never heard of that. I always do cardio when I cycle and had no probs. Definately something to do some research on.

It's not a theory it's a fact. Cell walls in the heart increase in thickness when using AS. Any AS can cause the heart to grow.

[ichabodcrane]

Decoders on the right track again. Even though the heart itself does contain androgen receptors, I am not sure the actual extent/abundance. We do know that AAS adversly effect the cardiovascular system, these may be some proposed mechanisms: 1) an atherogenic effect involving the effects of AAS on lipoprotein concentrations ; 2) a thrombosis effect involving the effects of AAS on clotting factors and platelets; 3) a vasospasm effect involving the effects of AAS on the vascular nitric oxide system; and 4) a direct myocardial injury effect involving the effects of AAS on individual myocardial cells 5) Hypertension. These are just a few of many hypothetical models, but never the less, stand to good reasoning from what we now know. There are clearly various mechanisms which add to AAS related cardiac pathology. We know that all AAS have an effect on lipid balance to some extent. We know that AAS can cause hypertension, and the list goes on. But many other factors come into play as well, such as intensity of exercise, individual lifestyles, ie. diet etc., predisposing factors/risk factors to name a few. Most people only see what AAS do the outside of our bodies, because these are the effects we can see and feel, both good and bad. We often ignore, or don't realize what is going on inside our bodies because we don't feel this right away. Most of bad effects take time, often years, to show up. The good thing is that we can anticipate and confirm (through lab tests/physicals etc.) that these events are going to happen and take appropriate measures to help counteract. We can do things (whether through lifestyle mod.,medication,supplementation etc.) to lower blood pressure, produce a favorable lipid profile, counteract estrogen/DHT accumulation and ultimately reduce the morbidity associated with AAS use.
Anyways, I know I didn't answer your question directly. But I think you see the picture. I don't know why doing cardio while on AAS would be a bad thing, because we know of the many positive benefits it produces. Now keep this in perspective though. Most athletes in general, (the ones that do intense exercise/sports, not golfing, bowling-some of these people do consider themselves athletes) will show some degree of left ventricular hypertrophy. So if you were doing "cardio" at 90% of max HR, then yeah, I would agree this would probably not be a good thing. But I think that mild-moderate cardio is beneficial. Your heart wont blow up. You put more stress on your cardiovascular system doing intense squats(although this is not time sustained) than doing cardio. In general, doing cardio keeps the cardio vascular system happy. So why not do it? In moderation of course

[Matt Foley]

IMO the benefits of cardio far outweigh no cardio at all.get your blood work done on a regular basis meaning pre/mid and post cycle check ups.i had a heart stress evaluation done while on a cycle and the doc gave me the bad news and told me i had a perfectly normal heart.the treadmill took 21min to 160hr.the ejection fraction was all within normal range and so were the valve release times.i guess each and every individual is different but im in my 30s and that volume oxygen peak is important to my workouts,if i were a cyclist or a marathon runner i think id be more concerned about organs such as the heart.as for now i am getting great results and regular check-ups.peace

mf

[FedSki]

my opinion, based on my research, which included searching through medical papers, asking medical doctors, reading news articles and archives, etc. is that usage of AS enlarges the heart and therefore 'frequent' cardio during a cycle would encourage the heart to grow.

i got slagged off the last time i posted on this issue for posting an article which was not directly related - however the article i posted was to point out that an enlarged heart, caused by whatever means, can lead to sudden death.

i personally will not do cardio during my cycle.

[FedSki]

you can't help yourself can you dick? you find something you disagree with and you're just sarcastic and unhelpful. sometimes you are just as annoying as your animated signature.

i'm entitled to my opinion. the connection is as follows . . .

1. AS causes musles to grow, especially those muscles you work hard
2. Your heart is a muscle
3. Frequent cardio (2 or three times a week) will work your heart hard
4. Working your heart hard and using AS will lead to heart enlargement

anyone else would have read and understood what i was trying to say. but i had to state it another way for you dick cos you obviously need extra help.

we must all do our own research and come to our own conclusions. i've come to mine.

in addition, you seem to make a habit out of pulling other people's postings and opinions to pieces. looking over some of the postings you've made in the past you are certainly not untouchable.

[Iron horse]

this all being said.. but doesnt the heart of genetic limit so it doesnt grow? like a pre-disposed size of our heart.

[Decoder]

Iron horse, No.

[Decoder]

Fedski, your some what right but its all in moderation , arnold did AS, he also ran 3 miles a day back in the 70's , and he has had what 4 heart attack's now? Moderation is the key.

Personally when im on as i will limit my cardio to 3 times a week 20 min's high intensity.

[Matt Foley]

Nov. 25, 1999 (Baltimore) -- Vigorous, prolonged exercise can result in an enlarged heart, but a new study by a German research team suggests the enlargement may not necessarily be a cause for concern. "Not every athlete, even if he or she is training and competing at a very high level, develops an enlarged heart," report the investigators in the October issue of the journal Sports Medicine. "Such a condition can only be expected after years of ... demanding aerobic endurance training."

The researchers find that there is no consistent relationship between an enlarged heart, or an "athlete's heart," and levels of exercise and fitness. Studies that have compared athletes of a similar caliber who compete in the same sport have found a lot of variation between individuals. They also find little evidence that an "athlete's heart" can be inherited.

Although previous studies have reported an increase in the size of the heart due to weight training, the German researchers do not entirely agree with this observation. "In our review, only bodybuilders using anabolic steroids exhibited a distinctly different hypertrophic index [a measure of heart thickness] compared with all other groups of endurance or strength athletes," write Axel Urhausen and Wilfried Kindermann. Both are from the Institute of Sports and Preventive Medicine at the University of Saarland in Germany.

The primary issues reviewed by the investigators included whether heart enlargement is an indication of significant heart disease, called pathological enlargement, or related to exercise, called physiological enlargement, and how to distinguish between the two.

One way to distinguish between exercise-related enlargement of the athlete heart from disease-related enlargement is to examine the relationship between the size of the heart and how the heart functions and reacts to stress, or its ergometric performance, according to Urhausen and Kindermann. Assessing how much blood the heart pumps each time it beats, how much oxygen is getting pumped into tissues, and the thickness of the heart muscle walls themselves must be done to determine if the heart is getting bigger due to disease or to exercise.

Disease-related heart enlargement is primarily due to either high blood pressure or heart failure, according to Kerry Steward, EdD. "The heart characteristics are quite different in these two conditions from the heart that is enlarged due to exercise," he says. "In fact, we are conducting a study right now looking at whether people with mild high blood pressure and slightly enlarged hearts can reverse the changes seen in their hearts by participating in an exercise program." Steward is director of the cardiac rehabilitation program at the Johns Hopkins Bayview Campus, Baltimore.

Although there is a very small risk of sudden death due to heart enlargement among athletes, Urhausen and Kindermann point out that this is usually not due to the heart enlargement itself, but rather due to some other disease process.

"Overall, those who exercise have a much lower probability of dying at any age than those who don't," Steward tells WebMD. "A small risk of heart enlargement or the very small risk of either of these two diseases is not a reason to abandon exercise."

and i just read another article that prople with a certain gene are at greater risk PPSR.so if your concerned go see your doc!

mf

[Matt Foley]

Changes to Heart Muscle

The changes to heart muscle caused by anabolic steroids are attributed to their anabolic properties in muscle tissue. Left ventricular hypertrophy is characterized by thickening of the left ventricular wall secondary to cardiac fiber enlargement. Left ventricular hypertrophy (LVH) is normally caused by a chronic increase in systemic blood pressure. It may also be seen with sudden or rapid weight gain. The thickening of the ventricular wall due to increased after-load from elevated vascular resistance can be viewed as adaptive protection up to a point. Beyond minor wall thickening, pathological LVH is a strong predictor of serious cardiovascular risk.

It is important for physicians to realize that LVH can occur in strength athletes and bodybuilders even in the absence of anabolic steroids use. It was previously believed that the intermittent increase in blood pressure that is caused by heavy lifting was not sufficient to elicit concentric left ventricular hypertrophy (CLVH). Any evidence of CLVH in strength athletes or bodybuilders was seen as a sign of anabolic steroid use .

During heavy lifting, systemic blood pressure is increased from what is called the valsalva maneuver. It is simply the act of forceful expiration with the mouth and nose closed producing a "bearing down" on the abdomen. Most people do this during heavy lifts such as squats or deadlifts. Pressure also increases due to blood vessels being occluded by contracting muscles. It should be noted that the LVH seen in bodybuilders and power lifters is called "concentric left ventricular hypertrophy", meaning that it is the result of contracting against acute increased systemic pressure, and is not considered pathological (i.e. unhealthy). "Eccentric" LVH is caused by constant increases of blood pressure, not as a result of the valsalva maneuver but instead due to clinical hypertension that forces the ventricle to expand against resistance.

AAS further exacerbate the effects of lifting on the heart. AASs cause anabolism in heart muscle, at times increasing left ventricular wall thickness to 16mm (11mm is considered normal).4 However, LVH caused by resistance training either alone or in conjunction with AAS has yet to result in diastolic dysfunction, or in other words, there is yet no evidence that this thickening of the ventricular wall is pathologic.

Treatment options

Upon cessation of high intensity resistance exercise and obviously AAS use, ventricular wall thickness returns to within normal ranges as long as hypertension unrelated to lifting is not present. There are no treatment suggestions for LVH caused by resistance training with or without the use

[FedSki]

Originally posted by dickrenegade
you're leaving out one simple thing... the "enlargement/strengthening" of the heart you get from cardio isn't a bad thing b/c it's a different type of enlargement than what you get from AS use.

You seem to do this quite a lot dick - misquote and use the comments of others out of context. It doesn't worry me too much as I'm sure most AR users, like myself, will read the other postings in the thread and understand the context.

We all know the value of cardio work and the beneficial strengthening effects it has on the cardio vascular system. But that wasn't the question. The question was 'is dangerous to do cardio when on AS'.

No one has a definative answer. Why? Well, to my knowledge, there have been no widespread studies looking at the link between AS usage and dangerous heart enlargement (left ventricular hypertrophy) or studies comparing the advantages and disadvantages of doing cardio while taking AS. Also, opinions within the medical profession with regard to this issue are divided.

So the answer to this question will be different for each person and must be arrived at through painstaking research.

Due to anecdotal evidence and the various and numerous reports I've read (like the ones being posted by Matt Foley which often state that AS usage is likely to increase LVH) I will not do cardio during my cycle but will stick to squats and the occasional Taekwondo session.

Oh and dick, if you have study data or reports that prove I'm 'blatantly wrong' then I'd like to see them posted.

[FedSki]

Originally posted by dickrenegade
there are studies but they're on mice.

really, so you have no facts for us that prove doing cardio while on a cycle is more beneficial than dangerous?

i'm going to stay strong on the inside as well as on the outside.

or maybe you're gonna get a great big fat heart that doesn't work very effectively.

you obviously haven't read up on the difference between the different types of exercises and their effects on the heart.

says who? you, the fountain of all knowledge? of course i know the difference between different types of exercise and the effects they have on the cardio vascular system. i've been training for at least 10 years and during that time i've read and experienced a helluva lot. you know nothing about me or my background therefore you are not qualified to make such a statement.

weight lifting and AS cause LVH, through increasing blood pressure for both- and AS working on heart muscle receptors.

yea, i know. we all know. that's not the question.

cardio exercises make your whole cardiovascular system hyperdynamic but usually not hypertensive (except during the first few minutes), and therefore do not cause the same kind of dangerous heart growth.

really, says which research institute or medical journal? or did you get that out of dickrenegade's big book of bogus facts?

you did use the term LVH though for the first time. lets see if you read a little more for your next post. i figure if we go back and forth may 5 or 6 times more you'll agree with me.

i try to keep things simple and refrain from using jargon or medical terms unless absolutely necessary.

well, i guess you've really proved to me that doing cardio while on AS is more beneficial than taking a break or reducing cardio. NOT!

[The Natural]

OK, ok...

LOTS of posts here!

I have comed up with a conclusion...
I am gonna do cardio... but only 3 times a week for about 15min after workout! And do it medium intensity (so I can talk). Hope it is a good choice!

[Rich8888]

DO YOUR RESEARCH

[ichabodcrane]

Here is a nice study for those interested. It demonstrates LVH amongst endurance athletes, resistance trainers and AAS users. It is older, but nevertheless a good read:

http://www.uniklinik-saarland.de/med...iographic.html

[FedSki]

Originally posted by dickrenegade
fuck it... lol... you called my bluff on this one. i searched all of medline and mdconsult.com and came up with jack shit.


but i still say your argument doesn't make sense.

now let's be friends ok??

you can stop by my place sometime and we can watch some "texas chainsaw massacre" or "gag factor" porno's.

dick

ok, friends it is. i only got so worked up cause you did this to me the last time we discussed this issue. i wish there was a definative answer but no one has found one yet.

get that video on, i'll bring the beers!

[FedSki]

Originally posted by The Natural
OK, ok...

LOTS of posts here!

I have comed up with a conclusion...
I am gonna do cardio... but only 3 times a week for about 15min after workout! And do it medium intensity (so I can talk). Hope it is a good choice!

that sounds sensible to me.