first cycle , seeking opinons

[gymbob]

baseline info about me,
training 4 years 3 quite seriously
25 years old
193lbs; 6'2" (started at 138lbs)

ive been planning this cycle since i was in highschool, however i did my reasearch and decided to wait, until now, i feel im old enough, trained natural long enough and have good connective tissues and tendons to handle some serious gains. im nearing my natural peak, not there by any means but its increasingly hard to gain mass on my frame with OTC supplements.

oh and i know i am gyno sensitive, i had a light lumpy ring around my left nipple during puberty, didnt know what it was back then, i left it alone and it went away on its own. also my natural test levels are reasonably low; 280 and my doc told me below 250 was where theyd begin hormone therapy. so any opinons on what a 500mgs cycle of test will do to a 25 yr old with average-low test levels are greatly accepted.

done some digging and recently convinced it may be benificial to run the HCG with the cycle, however im worried about becoming desensitized to it but not sure how long that takes to happen... opinons?

heres what i got so far:
week 1-12
500mgs test cyp
week 1- 13
150ius HCG every 3 days
.5 arimidex eod

week 14 -18
100mgs clomid


now my advisor tells me clomid alone is fine (with a-dex on hand) however he didnt say anything about running HCG the whole cycle. im wondering if ill need nolvadex with the clomid? or not? ive read the debate and it seems to go both ways.

any advice/opinons would be great thanks guys. by the way im going to the the final cycle decision by my doc as he will be monitering me, but i dont see him for 2 weeks, ill fire up after i see him

[HawaiianPride.]

Like it. Only thing I'd add is Tore or Tamox in your recovery protocol and taper down the Clomid mid PCT. Get blood work pre cycle.

[big_ron]

I do not believe you can become sensitized to hcg , run it at 250iu X 2 a week if possible

[gymbob]

i heard hcg , like anything that if your on it long enough your body will get desensitized, now i cant rememeber where i read it as i got info from many sources but if anyone knows about this let me know? i guess what im mildy worried about is the 12 weeks on hcg... but obviously theres been guys who ran it right through and came out on top, as where i read about it in the first place.

so what would you reccomend for a taper down on the clomid? start at 100 then taper to like 80-60-40 consecutive weeks? tamox eh? just curious on the reasoning for that one, im unfamiliar with it, im about to do a search but thought id ask as well.

also another concern is acne.. moderatly concerned i may have to pull the plug mid cycle from horrendious acne. my plan is nizoral daily, as well as dawn dish soap, ill run some kind of moisturizing agent and then benzoil peroxide 5% any spots as soon as they show up. as well as changing bed sheets every 2nd day i heard can help. then ill try to add B6 to the vitamin intake. is there anything else anyone can reccomend? i had mild/average acne as a teenager, still get the odd few zits onthe shoulders, odd one on the face... just for your info.

thanks for the help guys, ill be sure to keep pics up as we go here and ill log all strength gains as well

[HawaiianPride.]

I just re-read your height... for some reason I thought you were under 5'10 but at 6'2 you can do much more damage to your weight naturally. Although taking into account your naturally low T-levels this may be difficult to do even with the right diet. I know low T-levels can contribute to making gains difficult regardless of how well other variables are up to par.

Curious though, what kind of macros are you in taking daily?

Tamoxiphene Citrate or otherwise known as Nolvadex . It's a SERM like Clomid and should be used in conjunction with it. You don't know how well you will recover off 1 SERM alone and 2 is generally better than one for a successful PCT.

Acne may not even be hindered while on cycle, but to take preventative measures is always better than waiting until there is a problem to treat. Those methods you've thrown out are all good ones.

The best thing to do in order to avoid all ill-side effects is to start low around 350-400mg at the most. From here you can gauge your body language and increase the dose if necessary.

[OldManRiver]

I have used HCG throughout my last couple cycles at 400iu's 2times/wk and last time 3times/wk. For me, I didn't notice any desensitizing, and the benefits during/after pct for me were great. I think the dosing and frequency for injection is individually based, you need to expierement a little to get dialed in.
If thats you in the avatar, I think you might be able to build more mass naturally, (I woulda killed for genes like that) plus as someone who has always had low test, it is possible that you may never naturally recover to 250+ after cycle. This could lead to a severe depression after the cycle, as well as a whole lot of other problems. During my first cycle I felt aboslutely amazing, for three months I was like a different person with my attitude. I never had roid rage , just was happy and felt good all the time (laughed alot). After my PCT, I felt like shit for about 6 months. Maybe it was just a comparison to when I was on cycle, but I really felt depressed. It took awhile for my test to get back to 300, which I think might have caused that depression. Just my .02....

[Swifto]

250-400mg/wk for a first cycle, preferably Prop IMHO.

HCG 250ius 2x week.

Aromasin 10mg/EOD.

If your going with 1 SERM for PCT, go with Tamox. But I prefer Tore/Tamox.

[higgy]

Your story sounds alot like mine gymbob. I made the smart decision to wait until I was old enough for AAS. My first cycle was test e and deca , an I loved it. I'm about to run a test prop only cycle. I've heard great things about it.

[gymbob]

yea, i am still gaining naturally but its pretty slow... ill fluctuate weight from start of the year i was 196 with creatine, 5000 cals a day, probly 13%bf then recently because i was working 7 12hr shifts a week i went down to 185 about 9% bf.. strength is slow but it climbs, ive been following ronnie rowlands slingshot training and its worked thus far.

as far as my macros... here i gotta sadly admit ive been slacker then i used to be, i was taking in glutamine and leucine and omega 3s regular along with good protien that has the best amino acid profile as i could find. but now i try to get the nutrients from diet alone, which i dont get as much as i should i admit. i just didnt notice much difference when i was taking all the extra nutrients so financially i deemed it not worth it. now your wondering about my diet so ill run through a average day here. first off i must explain i work out of town during the week so all i have access to is a fridge, mic, g forman grill.

meal 1- 530am: upon waking- protein shake (500cals, 26g protien, 8g fat, 88g carbs)
microwave scrambled eggs (13g protein, 16g carbs , 320 cals,26g fat)
meal 2- 930am: spinach (2 cups) plus 1 can tuna+ 1 tb spoon dressing, one pack instant oatmeal (32 g protein, 174 cals, 20g carb, 2.5 g fat )
meal 3- noon: 1 can camballs soup+ 1 can tuna + one apple (280 cals, 35g protein, 43g carbs, 9g fat)
meal 4 - 3pm: a whole cat (raw) lol jk sorry he stepped on my keyboard... 1 cereal bar, protein bar , one apple ( 520cals, 34g protien , 85g carbs, 12g fat)
meal 5 - 530: 2tbs peanut butter, 2 cups orange juice. (15g fat, 58 carb, 8 protein, 400 cals)
WORKOUT
meal 6 - 730ish - protein shake- (500 cals, 26g protein, 8 g fat, 88g carbs)
meal 7 - 930ish - 2 cups of spinach, chicken breast (132 cals, 3g fat, 3g carbs, 25g protein.
meal 8 - 1030ish - protein shake( 500 cals, 26g protein, 88g carbs, 8g fat)

total values 3326 cals, 233g protein, 93g fat, 489g carbs,

wow to be honest i didnt really add my values up in awhile and im looking a bit shy on protein and calories. this was one day last week most days are similar but + or - a few values obviously. oh this is a working day(10 hrs) weekends i consume slightly less, something i need to work on. actually i will be redoing my diet for on cycle, increaseing calories, protein accordingly
oh im a welder so i am on my feet buring cals most of the day, another reason for more food then im getting. any suggestions on stuff that only requires a fridge, mic, g foreman grill???

i know im going to hear "dont bother starting until diet is in check" which is true im not getting enough for natural growth let alone hormonally enchanced. i plan on getting the diet sound before i hop on.

ok now to address the other point, first off im retarded, tamox is nolvadex , i knew that just didnt click in my head. and ya i got some nolva today to add with the hcg and with the clomid at pct time. ive got all the gear in possesion right now , which unfortunatly is (2) 10ml bottles of cyp dosed at 300mgs/ml. however my debate is this: originally i'd planned a more modest 400mgs/week but then 2 things happened;

1. i decided this will be my first and only cycle ( ya, ya i know what your thinking but this is the plan for i know ill like it too much and it will never end, then why at all you ask? well to blast the natural peak, ive been 190-195 for 1.5 years now. and because im going to fire fighting school in a little over a year i want it in and out of my system before i go, except to maintain 60% of gains would be a victory.

2. my advisor talked me into 500mgs a week, as well as most of the 1st go round cycles are 500. Also it being the 1st and only it has to count, HOWEVER; due to my avg-low test levels im concerned it may have a negative effect in the long run. would a lesser dose of 400mg/w have a better chance of restoring my test levels back 100%? although as of now my doc said my test levels were normal and advised against any sort of therapy. also im not sure of the affect it has but when i got my levels checked (both times) i purposely didnt work out for 3 days prior in an effort to have them lower than normal, so if they were on the fence it would give a little push to TRT. does not working out for several days lower your test?

ok so i am going to ask you vets about your opinons on the doseing for my situation? and another quick question was how would it effect the gains if i started at say 250/week to kinda get a feel for my bodies reaction to the sides?? my thinking was just take one constant dose to maintain steady hormone levels and reduce risk of sides. would a light start flucuate my levels enough to increase risk of sides??

oh and one last question, i have much respect for swifto and his hcg through out cycle theory, it has me convinced its the best way however i keep hearing not to bother, and only start it at week 10. BUT there in again my lower test levels, maybe its best to keep the boys from shutting down completely?? im just torn on this on right now, although i do think ill run nolva with the HCG after reading about it. which brings in another question, how much does nolva affect the adex? im just worried about gyno primarily. i read nolva decreases adex by 30%. is it counter productive to take the nolva with adex during cycle( if i do hcg throughout i mean.) keep in mind i know im gyno sensitive as from a small lump episode during puberty.

ok i appoligise for the blurting of all the info and questions mixed together so im just gunna copy and paste the questions down here for quick reference. BTW, swifto i was happy to see your reply, it seems you know your stuff, any additional info is highly appreciated


questions:
1.any suggestions on stuff that only requires a fridge, mic, g foreman grill???
2. would a lesser dose of 400mg/w have a better chance of restoring my test levels back 100%?
3.does not working out for several days lower your test?
4.i am going to ask you vets about your opinions on the dosing for my situation?
5.how would it effect the gains if i started at say 250/week to kinda get a feel for my bodies reaction to the sides??
6.would a light start flucuate my levels enough to increase risk of sides??
7.my lower test levels, maybe its best to keep the boys from shutting down completely??
8.is it counter productive to take the nolva with adex during cycle( if i do hcg throughout i mean.) keep in mind i know im gyno sensitive as from a small lump episode during puberty.

i know its alot of questions and i dont expect anyone to write a book, but if you do have time for a quick jot down of your thoughts, it would really help me out, thanks to all who have shown an interest and continue to, hopefully this can help a few of us newbies from asking the same crap repeatedly.

oh and on a non related note, HawaiianPride, is that your arm in the avatar? wow dude thats rank, howd you get so vascular?
someone commented on my avatar, ya thats me 6 months ago, just so you get an idea my condition going into this whole thing.

anyways thanks again everyone hope to hear more feedback its great

[gymbob]

bump

[gymbob]

bump? anyone?

[HawaiianPride.]

No that was Frank Mcgraths arm. Let me eat and read that novel you posted, lol.

[gymbob]

heh, ya sorry about that, it took me an hour by the time i ws done and counted calories, glad i did tho i didnt realise how far from my intended path id strayed, but thanks man appriciate it

[codeegee]

damn, you look pretty huge in your avatar. how big are you hoping to get man? like 6'2, 215 9%BF ish?

[my yana]

nolvadex

[gymbob]

im not big at all, arms are 16.5" after a pump. well im 193 today at about what im guessing is 10% bf.. just a guess.. and id like to gain 25lbs and keep 12lb after its all said and done, maintain 10% bf or lower. im just wondering about the arimidex , cuz im gyno prone, i want to be sure it will keep gyno away, and i dont want to use letro cuz its just too harsh and i think it will kill gains, plus the est rebound...