Ketotifen vs. Benadryl during clen cycle?

**aPlinker** · 10-27-2010, 06:16 PM

So I have done some searching and know that these chems are used because of their ability to inhibit the down regulation of beta receptors caused by clenbuterol , which means the clen stays effective and can be used for longer periods.
http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...light=clen+faq

In many of the posts I have seen they recommend one or the other, but my question is which one is better/more effective?

I know I can get keto from ar-r when I order the clen and benadryl from the grocery store so thats not a problem.

Second question I have is when to take keto? before bed starting the 3rd week same as benadryl?

I know with benadryl you take 50mgs a day beginning the 3rd week on clen for a week, before bed. and repeat every 3rd week until you are done.

Thanks for the help guys I appreciate it.

**BrysZ** · 10-27-2010, 06:40 PM

Not that I have any actual experience with clen yet, but I have been doing a ton of reading on this forum and driving the vets crazy with my numerous questions and I think there is an agreement that it you want to continue clen for mulitple weeks to take the third week off of clen entirely and switch to keto the third week. Whether or not keto is better than benadryl I cant tell you...

A lot of guys will tell you to do the 2 weeks on / 2 weeks off method and skip the keto/benadryl.

My plan is to do the first approach...good luck

***D7M*** · 10-27-2010, 06:48 PM

Originally Posted by aPlinker

So I have done some searching and know that these chems are used because of their ability to inhibit the down regulation of beta receptors caused by clenbuterol , which means the clen stays effective and can be used for longer periods.
http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...light=clen+faq

In many of the posts I have seen they recommend one or the other, but my question is which one is better/more effective? Keto.

I know I can get keto from ar-r when I order the clen and benadryl from the grocery store so thats not a problem.

Second question I have is when to take keto? before bed starting the 3rd week same as benadryl? Yes, it will probably cause drowsiness. Take at night after the second week.

I know with benadryl you take 50mgs a day beginning the 3rd week on clen for a week, before bed. and repeat every 3rd week until you are done.

Thanks for the help guys I appreciate it.

^Bolds....

**aPlinker** · 10-27-2010, 07:12 PM

Originally Posted by D7M

^Bolds....

Great, thanks for the info.

**cyounger100** · 10-27-2010, 08:16 PM

i dont no where u read too take the 3rd week off clen entirely the whole reason i am goin too take the keto is so i can run it for the whole 6 weeks without any time off so too clarify i will be running the clen for the 6 weeks with no time off and will take the keto on day 14 thru 21 while still taking the clen

Originally Posted by BrysZ

Not that I have any actual experience with clen yet, but I have been doing a ton of reading on this forum and driving the vets crazy with my numerous questions and I think there is an agreement that it you want to continue clen for mulitple weeks to take the third week off of clen entirely and switch to keto the third week. Whether or not keto is better than benadryl I cant tell you...

A lot of guys will tell you to do the 2 weeks on / 2 weeks off method and skip the keto/benadryl.

My plan is to do the first approach...good luck

**aPlinker** · 10-27-2010, 08:49 PM

Originally Posted by cyounger100

i dont no where u read too take the 3rd week off clen entirely the whole reason i am goin too take the keto is so i can run it for the whole 6 weeks without any time off so too clarify i will be running the clen for the 6 weeks with no time off and will take the keto on day 14 thru 21 while still taking the clen

Yea I'm doing the same thing as you...not sure what that guy was talking about but the whole reason you take keto is so you can stay ON the clen .

**Swifto** · 10-28-2010, 07:20 AM

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...777&query_hl=6
Effects of ketotifen on the responsiveness of peripheral blood lymphocyte beta-adrenergic receptors.
"The effects of ketotifen therapy on the responsiveness of lymphocyte beta-adrenergic receptors was evaluated by measuring cyclic AMP elevations caused by isoproterenol [a beta2-agonist] in cells isolated from patients treated with ketotifen for more than 1 year. Binding of 3H-dihydroalprenolol to beta-receptors was also evaluated. The isoproterenol-induced rise in cyclic AMP relative to each individual's baseline level was greater in patients on current ketotifen therapy than in other asthmatic patients or non-asthmatic subjects. Ketotifen therapy increased the apparent equilibrium dissociation constant for specific 3H-dihydroalprenolol binding to the receptors. Receptor numbers in symptomatic asthma patients on standard drug therapy were decreased. The results indicate that long term ketotifen therapy is associated with increased responsiveness of beta-receptors to stimulation by catecholamines and that this alteration may involve changes in the receptors themselves, their membrane environment, adenylate cyclase or components of the adenylate cyclase coupling system."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...319&query_hl=2
Effects of ketotifen and clenbuterol on beta-adrenergic receptor functions of lymphocytes
"Applying ketotifen and clenbuterol together the beta-adrenergic receptor function increased compared to the values obtained after application of clenbuterol alone (intraindividual-control) as well as vs. the group of healthies (control). Data presented support the view that therapeutic doses of selective beta 2-agonists do not lead to damage of the beta-adrenoceptor function. The improvement of receptor function after parallel administration of clenbuterol and ketotifen may be a consequence of the participation of ketotifen in the control of beta-adrenergic receptor system."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...180&query_hl=6
Effects... of ketotifen on beta 2 adrenergic receptor regulation in intact human lymphocytes
"KET alone also induced an up-regulation of cell surface beta adrenergic receptors."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...002&query_hl=6
[Bronchial adrenergic receptors and asthma. Tachyphylaxis and its prevention]
(Tachyphylaxis is rapidly diminishing response to successive doses of a drug, rendering it less effective)
"The majority of the clinical studies in healthy volunteers have shown that chronic inhalation or oral intake of sympathomimetics causes tachyphylaxis of the bronchial beta adrenergic receptors... Several well controlled studies have however shown that chronic administration of sympathomimetics results in a significantly decreased sensitivity of the bronchial beta adrenergic receptor... Corticosteroids, given orally or parenterally, restore the sensitivity of the beta adrenergic receptors. In a double blind, placebo controlled study in healthy subjects we have observed that ketotifen prevents the development of a tachyphylaxis of the bronchial beta adrenergic receptor during prolonged treatment with inhaled sympathomimetics."

Keto 1-2mg before bed.

**MBMETC** · 10-28-2010, 07:30 AM

somebody posted perfectbeast clen write up the otherday, all the questions are answered in his post as it is well documented and easy to understand.

just bumped the thread

**BrysZ** · 10-28-2010, 08:23 AM

Originally Posted by cyounger100

i dont no where u read too take the 3rd week off clen entirely the whole reason i am goin too take the keto is so i can run it for the whole 6 weeks without any time off so too clarify i will be running the clen for the 6 weeks with no time off and will take the keto on day 14 thru 21 while still taking the clen

It was recommended to me by a vet.

Yes you are correct the keto is "supposed" to allow you to stay on the clen for numerous weeks, but there is a belief that the clen will still have diminishing effectiveness even with the keto. The third week of keto-no clen approach is a compromise between taking a full 2 weeks off of clen and not taking any weeks off.

I suppose its a good way to know you have thoroughly took care of the receptors and will get the maximum results from your clen...hey there is more than one road to Rome...

**BrysZ** · 10-28-2010, 08:37 AM

Originally Posted by aPlinker

Yea I'm doing the same thing as you...not sure what that guy was talking about but the whole reason you take keto is so you can stay ON the clen.

This "guy was talking" about the fact that there is a belief that the clen will still be reduced in effectiveness with the keto and taking the third week off of clen and using the keto is a compromise to taking 2 full weeks off.

I was recommended this by a couple vets...hey do what you want...better yet...go and count how many different opinions there are when it comes to using clen...pay close attention to the numer of guys who believe you should take the two weeks off and not use keto at all.

I was merely repeating the information I had acquired since I have been spending the last 3 weeks researching the exact same topic...no wonder so many post never get replies....

***D7M*** · 10-28-2010, 08:44 AM

The fact of the matter Brysz, is that in this game, you'll always have multiple options.

I don't really even care for clen .

while another guy will say run it continuously and use Keto.

And yet another will say 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off.

Yet another will say, xyz.

While there is a science behind what we do, there's also genetics, and other factors.

the bottom line is eventually you are going to have to make an educated, informed decision and try one way out for yourself.

**MBMETC** · 10-28-2010, 08:56 AM

.......

**MBMETC** · 10-28-2010, 08:58 AM

im sure bothe ways are effective. to each his own

**Swifto** · 10-28-2010, 09:00 AM

Originally Posted by D7M

The fact of the matter Brysz, is that in this game, you'll always have multiple options.

I don't really even care for clen .

while another guy will say run it continuously and use Keto.

And yet another will say 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off.

Yet another will say, xyz.

While there is a science behind what we do, there's also genetics, and other factors.

the bottom line is eventually you are going to have to make an educated, informed decision and try one way out for yourself.

Dam right.

Excellent post mate.

**aPlinker** · 10-28-2010, 09:09 AM

Originally Posted by D7M

The fact of the matter Brysz, is that in this game, you'll always have multiple options.

I don't really even care for clen .

while another guy will say run it continuously and use Keto.

And yet another will say 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off.

Yet another will say, xyz.

While there is a science behind what we do, there's also genetics, and other factors.

the bottom line is eventually you are going to have to make an educated, informed decision and try one way out for yourself.

This definitely makes sense, hopefully I can figure out which way works best for me.

**michael2865** · 10-31-2010, 12:23 AM

so if you want to try running clen for more then 2 weeks, you start ketotifen at the start of the third week?, but do you only run it for a week or do you run it for the rest of the clen cycle?

**aPlinker** · 10-31-2010, 12:51 AM

Originally Posted by michael2865

so if you want to try running clen for more then 2 weeks, you start ketotifen at the start of the third week?, but do you only run it for a week or do you run it for the rest of the clen cycle?

You run it for a week every 3rd week you are on the clen

**sixoner** · 10-31-2010, 11:09 AM

I prefer to run the ketotifen @2mg every night from day 1 and throughout how ever long I decide to be on... theory is it keeps the receptors healthy keto is fairly cheap and it doesn't make me drowsy at that dose so it makes sense to run it throughout. why wait til your receptors are trashed

**BrysZ** · 10-31-2010, 05:26 PM

Originally Posted by sixoner

I prefer to run the ketotifen @2mg every night from day 1 and throughout how ever long I decide to be on... theory is it keeps the receptors healthy keto is fairly cheap and it doesn't make me drowsy at that dose so it makes sense to run it throughout. why wait til your receptors are trashed

Thats an interesting theory...I wonder if anyone else uses this method. Do you feel that this affects the effectiveness of the clen at all? I wonder how it works...I know clen blocks the receptors and keto "clears" them. I would be interested in hearing about your success and results using this method...thank you.

**sixoner** · 10-31-2010, 07:24 PM

check out the last study in swiftos post further up...keto prevents the rapid desensitization of the beta-2 androgenic receptors those are the receptors that clenbuteral selectively targets what more is there to say unless there is some risk or side to taking ketotifen for weeks at a time...makes perfect sense to run it from the beginning..keep the receptors sensitive and clen working optimally

**sixoner** · 10-31-2010, 09:30 PM

first go I ran clen for 28days consecutively. I ramped up 60,80,100,100,100,120mcg so @ day7 I hit 120mcg. first day I misread syringe and seriously under dosed so the 60mcg was the first day I took a significant dose. started keto at day 13 on that run and dosed keto at 1mg every night until day 22 when I started to increase the dose of keto 250mcg every night til I reached 2mg on day 25..my body temp was back up so i remained at 2mg keto til day 28. my intentions were to run the clen for 8 weeks but my plans got screwed up and i had to go out of town so that first run ended at 4weeks the results were very good definitely more impressive in the first 10 days..considering I fuked up the dose of clen on the first day and my body temp started coming down on day 12 I suspect my receptors were desensitized making the clen minimally effective around 11days of significant dosing. coincides with the fact that the visual effects were starting to taper off

another member suggested taking the keto from the beginning to me and it made perfect sense so my second run I dosed 120mcg clen and 2mg keto from day 1 through day 21. for this run I made a few changes to diet, well not so much diet as supps, and my cardio was up to every day for 1hr first thing in the am on empty @65-70%MHR so my calories were bumped up to maintenance or slightly above actually my intention was to create the deficit through cardio so all in all that run went very well also..only thing to note for that run is i was eating my ass off about every 2hrs and completely lost my appetite so i started injecting b12 intramuscular @1000mcg eod to try and get my appetite back..guess it helped I'm hungry as a hostage again

so that's my 2 runs thus far with clen and the results were pretty damn impressive.. I was around 17% when I started and I'm just below 15% now, but diet and training has improved vastly. I'm gaining strength and growing some working my ass off to get to 10% and not be a skinny ass bitch when i get there. so my personal results with the clen is that stuff works like a fuking charm only problems I have with it is I cant sit still on it it has me bouncing off the walls..I seemed to be more relaxed on it when combined with the b12injections not really sure if one had anything to do with the other but I felt better, more relaxed. I'm still injecting b12 eod and looking forward to my next clen run, as i make my next push closer to 10%