Var/Turnibol...shut you down?

[jay007]

Thinking of running anavar 100mgs and turnibol 100mgs for 6-8 weeks.
Will this shut me down? I'm really trying to stay away from test this year.
Any injectible i should add excluding test?
stats:
35
5'6
190lbs
low fat
last cycle:test e, tren , winnie

[PK-V]

Will this shut me down? no shit

I'm really trying to stay away from test this year

>implying your oral only stack is not converted into testosterone

[ghettoboyd]

of course it will man...all aas will cause it weather its test or not....

[magic32]

Nope.
Neither (nor a combination) will shut you down, but they'll both suppress natty.
The same goes for all low to moderate potency orals including Winny, Primo, etc.
Doesn't anyone read any more?

Why would you (or anybody for that matter) want to avoid Test?

[Swifto]

Nope.
Neither (nor a combination) will shut you down, but they'll both suppress natty.
The same goes for all low to moderate potency orals including Winny, Primo, etc.
Doesn't anyone read any more?

Why would you (or anybody for that matter) want to avoid Test?

If any of them are used at a high enough dose or for long enough, I'd assume they will cause shut down of the HPTA. Or any of them in combination causing enough AR or ER activity.

[cro]

why would you stack two orals anyway

[Bonaparte]

That sounds like liver, lipid, and BP rape.

[magic32]

If any of them are used at a high enough dose or for long enough, I'd assume they will cause shut down of the HPTA. Or any of them in combination causing enough AR or ER activity.

That’s a very practical perspective Swift, but I wasn’t speaking hypothetically. I actually write profiles, and with androgenicities of less 24 apiece AND 17-alpha alkylated (except for Primo) chemical modifications, neither will ever shut you down.

Dosage and duration are incapable of offsetting a drugs/steroids androgenic capacity, i.e. regardless of how much or how long you take it, the androgenic level is static UNLESS the integrity of its chemical structure is somehow compromised. For example, Test is so androgenic that it'll shut you down within a mere week of use, regardless of the esters (or the lack thereof) has elevated within your bloodstream, i.e. duration doesn’t matter. However, as with most principles there are exceptions, for example most genuine Nors (like Deca , with a relatively low androgenicity) will still cause both rapid and complete (100%) shut down, because their chemical structures support it, thereby negating that aspect of their androgenic numbers.

Similarly, Test derivatives like Hydroxytest (Hydroxytestosterone) even though it's a Test family member won’t shut you down either, because of its chemical alteration (the addition of a 4-hydroxl group) which effectively reduces its androgenic number to 25. Conversely, there are scientific freaks like Methylhydroxynandrolone, b.k.a. MOHN in which the same 4-hydroxl group amplifies the its structure to 13x more anabolic than even methyltestosterone , yet simultaneously skyrockets its androgenic number to an astounding 281, just looking at a vial of this stuff can shut you down. Now take the Nandrolone hybrid Tribolin (40 mg of Nandrolone phenylpropionate + 35 mg of Methylandrostenediol Dipropionate) which is chemically structured in such a way that the methyl combination temporarily deactivates the Nor’s natural androgenicity requiring time for it to regain full capacity. In such cases duration necessarily becomes instrumental.

Nevertheless, Var, Tbol, Primo and Winny won’t shut you down at any dosage, or duration…quite simply because they can’t! The most they can muster (based on both androgenic number and chemical structure) is the capacity for mere suppression.

[Swifto]

That’s a very practical perspective Swift, but I wasn’t speaking hypothetically. I actually write profiles, and with androgenicities of less 24 apiece AND 17-alpha alkylated (except for Primo) chemical modifications, neither will ever shut you down.

Dosage and duration are incapable of offsetting a drugs/steroids androgenic capacity, i.e. regardless of how much or how long you take it, the androgenic level is static UNLESS the integrity of its chemical structure is somehow compromised. For example, Test is so androgenic that it'll shut you down within a mere week of use, regardless of the esters (or the lack thereof) has elevated within your bloodstream, i.e. duration doesn’t matter. However, as with most principles there are exceptions, for example most genuine Nors (like Deca , with a relatively low androgenicity) will still cause both rapid and complete (100%) shut down, because their chemical structures support it, thereby negating that aspect of their androgenic numbers.

Similarly, Test derivatives like Hydroxytest (Hydroxytestosterone) even though it's a Test family member won’t shut you down either, because of its chemical alteration (the addition of a 4-hydroxl group) which effectively reduces its androgenic number to 25. Conversely, there are scientific freaks like Methylhydroxynandrolone, b.k.a. MOHN in which the same 4-hydroxl group amplifies the its structure to 13x more anabolic than even methyltestosterone , yet simultaneously skyrockets its androgenic number to an astounding 281, just looking at a vial of this stuff can shut you down. Now take the Nandrolone hybrid Tribolin (40 mg of Nandrolone phenylpropionate + 35 mg of Methylandrostenediol Dipropionate) which is chemically structured in such a way that the methyl combination temporarily deactivates the Nor’s natural androgenicity requiring time for it to regain full capacity. In such cases duration necessarily becomes instrumental.

Nevertheless, Var, Tbol, Primo and Winny won’t shut you down at any dosage, or duration…quite simply because they can’t! The most they can muster (based on both androgenic number and chemical structure) is the capacity for mere suppression.

Well thats very interesting indeed.

I'm aware your also a writer and have enormous respect for your opinion(s). But I have some questions.

The thing is also, is that the HPTA's response to androgens is not the same on all subjects. Tbol may inhibit one's TT dropping it by 300-400ng/dl from baseline, whilst another it may merely drop their TT by 200ng/dl. If the first subjects baseline was a meer 400ng/dl, your saying they wouldnt be shutdown from the use of Tbol?

How can dose not determine HPTA suppression in regards to inhibitve compounds, such as Tbol, Primo, Mast, EQ, Winstrol (not Test and 19-nors)? 100mg/ED of Tbol is going to have the same inhibitive effect on the HPTA as 20mg/ED is? Because it doesnt as I have used Tbol at various doses and see for myself what effects doses have on my TT level. Hence I sometimes run 40mg/ED Tbol, not 60-100mg/ED Tbol as I can attain a 500ng/dl TT level. As I increase the dose, my TT goes down.

Your also stating there is not a cumulative effect (androgenicity) when combining androgens? Because there is certainly a combined anabolic effect when combining or stacking androgens?

[Bertuzzi]

Although I respect and enjoy both Magic and Swiftos posts, I have some personal experience I feel I need to post.... Maybe you can even shed some light on the situation

When I ran Var at 100mg/ed for 10 weeks my total test levels were 2.2nmol/L I pretty much consider that shut down....

[awms]

pfff yes at those doses for that long you will deff shut down...and wow thats a costly cycle and alot of pill poping! after 8 weeks your liver and blood pressure are going to be very high!

Why do this? are you afraid to give your self a needle?

[jay007]

this has been some great insight, some of it is way past my comprehension of the science but still great info as well.
the reason for the pill popping has multiple reason 1) looking to try something different, 2) tired of being a pin cushion, 3) the wife she hates it when i inject, 4) actually tring to do a cycle that will not shut down my HPTA or suppress my natural test.
from the research i have done and the Pro's i have talked to said i would be fine and if i did see a drop all i would need to do was take HCG mid way through the cycle. Now i'm going off topic here but the Pro's do things to the extreme...would adding Masteron to this mix be useful...again pro's advice.

[Bonaparte]

this has been some great insight, some of it is way past my comprehension of the science but still great info as well.
the reason for the pill popping has multiple reason 1) looking to try something different, 2) tired of being a pin cushion, 3) the wife she hates it when i inject, 4) actually tring to do a cycle that will not shut down my HPTA or suppress my natural test.
from the research i have done and the Pro's i have talked to said i would be fine and if i did see a drop all i would need to do was take HCG mid way through the cycle. Now i'm going off topic here but the Pro's do things to the extreme...would adding Masteron to this mix be useful...again pro's advice.

I thought you were going to inject?

[jay007]

if i do injext im looking for something to take that wont shut me down or suppress HPTA.
this is why im asking about Masteron . test and tren have shut me down in the pass.

[Swifto]

if i do injext im looking for something to take that wont shut me down or suppress HPTA.
this is why im asking about Masteron. test and tren have shut me down in the pass.

Good luck in finding an andorgen thats useful and doesnt "supress the HPTA". Halo possibly.

Man up, use injectables, cycle properly and plan in advance (HCG + AI) and you shouldnt run into problems.

[jay007]

would Masteron shut you down, i've searched it and i havent found anything that suggest it would.

[magic32]

Swift,

Firstly, personal experience without bloodwork is far too subjective to be considered evidentiary.

And as you well know, I’m actually a Researcher, who writes and edits, not a writer.

But what I'm saying, and maybe I went into too much or possibly too little detail, is that drug actions are capped at a certain level. For example Var has both an anabolic and androgenic number that together form its AA ratio. If you take 10 mg/ED of Var for a week, you won’t reach its anabolic capacity (the cap for its muscle building and ancillary actions). So “yes” taking 20, 40, 80 mg will have greater impact on your physique. However, once you pass 100 mg you’ve reached Var’s capacity (possibly closer to 80 mg, this is just an example). Taking 200, 300 or 400 mg/ED won’t improve it. Similarly, taking the same 10 mg/ED for 10 wks will have a greater cumulative effect (especially if taken twice daily to account for the short half-life) than the above 1 wk. However, having reached capacity 100 mg and (for the sake of argument) a duration capacity of 16 wks, continuing administration for 25, 35, 55 wks and HOPING FOR GREATER CUMULATIVE EFFECT, won’t improve it either.

Concordantly, it’s androgenic component works in the same fashion. Var will only become SO ANDROGENIC, until it reaches capacity which is far short of shut down. And maybe I should mention that I’m referring to ‘shut down’ in it’s literal sense, not moderate, low, very low (all of which technically qualify as suppression), but rather NO or ZERO testosterone production. You can technically come off a cycle and cruise to the next one, but if you cruise long enough at say 200 mg/wk of Test, natty will start to recover because 200 mg/wk is not enough to indefinitely sustain shut down, it’s actually a great supplemental (TRT/HRT) dosage which supports low levels. So maybe are quarrel was one of semantics, because I speak literally, not figuratively.

But if not, then I hold to above capacity rules when dealing with drug actions, and contend that neither dosage or duration beyond capacity, will improve upon results or negatives.

This principle is visible in numerous areas. For example:

With nutrients, if I’m starving and begin to eat an entire bunch of bananas my potassium stores won’t improve pass the first few (2 or 3, wherever potassium capacity lies), continuing to eat them simply can’t improve upon an already reached capacity, irregardless of amount or duration.

At the gym, if I’ve fully exhausted a body part (reached capacity by activating as many muscle fibers as possible) from multiple angles with more than sufficient reps, sets, and intensity, then continuing to work it for another hour, or 3, or 5, won’t improve upon that session.

Watering the lawn, once it’s thoroughly watered (to capacity), my leaving the hose on like a swimming pool, won’t improve it.

Drying clothes, once they’re completely dry (capacity)…that’s all she wrote.

Murder, you can't kill a man (which is capacity) twice, thrice or more...he's dead.

Etc., etc, etc.

[Swifto]

Swift,

Firstly, personal experience without bloodwork is far too subjective to be considered evidentiary.

And as you well know, I’m actually a Researcher, who writes and edits, not a writer.

But what I'm saying, and maybe I went into too much or possibly too little detail, is that drug actions are capped at a certain level. For example Var has both an anabolic and androgenic number that together form its AA ratio. If you take 10 mg/ED of Var for a week, you won’t reach its anabolic capacity (the cap for its muscle building and ancillary actions). So “yes” taking 20, 40, 80 mg will have greater impact on your physique. However, once you pass 100 mg you’ve reached Var’s capacity (possibly closer to 80 mg, this is just an example). Taking 200, 300 or 400 mg/ED won’t improve it. Similarly, taking the same 10 mg/ED for 10 wks will have a greater cumulative effect (especially if taken twice daily to account for the short half-life) than the above 1 wk. However, having reached capacity 100 mg and (for the sake of argument) a duration capacity of 16 wks, continuing administration for 25, 35, 55 wks and HOPING FOR GREATER CUMULATIVE EFFECT, won’t improve it either.

Concordantly, it’s androgenic component works in the same fashion. Var will only become SO ANDROGENIC, until it reaches capacity which is far short of shut down. And maybe I should mention that I’m referring to ‘shut down’ in it’s literal sense, not moderate, low, very low (all of which technically qualify as suppression), but rather NO or ZERO testosterone production. You can technically come off a cycle and cruise to the next one, but if you cruise long enough at say 200 mg/wk of Test, natty will start to recover because 200 mg/wk is not enough to indefinitely sustain shut down, it’s actually a great supplemental (TRT/HRT) dosage which supports low levels. So maybe are quarrel was one of semantics, because I speak literally, not figuratively.

But if not, then I hold to above capacity rules when dealing with drug actions, and contend that neither dosage or duration beyond capacity, will improve upon results or negatives.

This principle is visible in numerous areas. For example:

With nutrients, if I’m starving and begin to eat an entire bunch of bananas my potassium stores won’t improve pass the first few (2 or 3, wherever potassium capacity lies), continuing to eat them simply can’t improve upon an already reached capacity, irregardless of amount or duration.

At the gym, if I’ve fully exhausted a body part (reached capacity by activating as many muscle fibers as possible) from multiple angles with more than sufficient reps, sets, and intensity, then continuing to work it for another hour, or 3, or 5, won’t improve upon that session.

Watering the lawn, once it’s thoroughly watered (to capacity), my leaving the hose on like a swimming pool, won’t improve it.

Drying clothes, once they’re completely dry (capacity)…that’s all she wrote.

Murder, you can't kill a man (which is capacity) twice, thrice or more...he's dead.

Etc., etc, etc.

Personal experience cannot be discounted and I did and have got BW cruising on Tbol at varied doses. Because at 40mg/ED I can maintain a TT level of 500ng/dl, thats why I use that particular dose and not 100mg/ED because of too much inhibition.

I also understand the principle of capacity. But how can this theory hold water when androgens are combined? Surely their effects on the HPTA are combined. If not, your telling me Tbol at 80mg/ED, Winstrol 50mg/ED, EQ at 400mg/wk and Masteron at 75mg/ED, will not cause HPTA "shutdown". And when I refer to "shutdown" I mean it in the sense of when androgens like exogenous testosterone and 19-Nor's are administered.

There was a theory that was dismissed years ago on using "inhibitive" compounds AFTER using compounds that 100% cause HPTA shutdown, such as Test Enan. The theory stated that after a cycle of, for example, Test Enan 500mg/wk, one could use Winstrol at 50mg/ED for 5-6 weeks (after the Enanthate ester has cleared) and endogenous LH/FSH and Testosterone would begin to rise, because the Winstrol does not cause enough HPTA inhibition to sustain shutdown. Do you agree with that theory?

I'm not stating your wrong by any means, but what paper's are you referring to in regards to various androgens effects on the HPTA (capacity)?

A member just stated his TT was 2.2nmol/l, would you consider that "shutdown"?

The capacity of these compounds is also the same for every user? If so, user's baseline is often not the same. Some start on a TT level of closer to 1000ng/dl and others right at the other end of the scale before technically hypogondal at 300ng/dl.

[Swifto]

I think you and I may have different definitions of the word "shutdown".

[awms]

Honestly man if you really dont like shooting pick a long ester like test cyp, shoot once a week and kick start it with an oral...half the cost and your liver will thank you for it!

[jay007]

i have no problem shooting just looking for something that wont contribute to test/HPTA suppression or shut down. looking for a recomendation