Testosterone Enanthate or Testosterone Cypionate?

[J. Cole]

Hey Everyone,

Brand new member, but I have been referring to the cite for quite some time to obtain valuable information on all aspects of bodybuilding. I have been natural thus far and I personally think I am great shape. My stats are as follows:

Age: 26
Height: 6'1"
Weight: 200lb
Bf%: Aprox. 14-15%
Cycle history: None
Years training: 5

Recently I have been contemplating getting into the aas game and looking to cycle within the year once I feel comfortable with my knowledge on the topic. From my research thus far, I have gathered that testosterone should be the base of every cycle, and testosterone cypionate or enanthate are the best to start with? Is this true, and which one would you guys recommend. I am looking to start with only one compound for my first cycle, so how would you guys shape a 12 week cycle (in cc's). PCT is beyond confusing for me, and not sure how to go about doing that. I want to get nolvadex for signs of gyno and possibly clomid for PCT? Does that sound decent, if so how do you guys break down your PCT. I appreciate any input, and would really appreciate the help anyone can offer using my stats. Thank you!

[MBMETC]

Welcome and kudo's on your research thus far. e or cyp no real difference so its just your choice. what is confusing you on pct and can you propose a pct for me to look at.

[manblue]

good stuff man, yeah you only wanna use 1 compound on your first cycle

i know a lot of newbies like me use test e for first cycle buy test c kicks in quicker

300mg a week is what im on (recommended to me )

but some people do 500mg a week

for 12 weeks

and clomid and nova for pct

experienced members probably tell you between test e and test c

good luck

[MACHINE5150]

cyp lasts 3 weeks, enanthate lasts 2 weeks.. i recommend enanthate since it is faster acting.. 4-500mg a week.. cc/ml would depend on the concentration.. i.e. 2cc of test e at 200mg/ml would be the same as one cc of test 400.. get it??

as for PCT.. you start 2 weeks after last shot for enanthate and three weeks if you use cypionate (note the correlation between active life and when to start PCT) you start PCT once the steroids stop working..

PCT / Post Cycle Therapy would be like this:
Clomid
100mg Every Day weeks 1-2
50mg ED weeks 3-4

Nolvadex
40mg ED weeks 1-2
20mg ED weeks 3-4

you can use nolvadex to fight gyno but arimidex is much better and it can be purchased from our sponsor AR-R in the top right banner of your screen..

-Good Luck

[MACHINE5150]

^^Aslo, forgot to say.. if you can get your hands on some HCG i recommend running that as well.. it is not completely necessary but makes recovery much easier and keeps your balls normal size..

[Far from massive]

Whichever you can get your hands on most easily. Not a lot of difference between the two. As far as dosage start at 350 that should be plenty however if by week 4 you feel that the gear is underdosed or you are not responding as well as you should you can increase it slightly to 400-450. As far as ML that depend on how the gear is dosed and how often you are pinning. I the gear is dosed at 200mg/ml and you are pinning twice per week then naturally one ML per shot would equal 400mg of test per wk.

As far as fighting sides, I would get an keep an AI like liquid Letro on hand and use it starting wk 3 at 1ml twice per week. This will prevent the aromatization of the test into estro and prevent gyno which is a lot better than waiting for it to happen then fighting it. Also look into getting some HCG and running it at 250iu's twice a wk starting week 3 this will almost totally prevent any testicular atrophy ( raisins ) For PCT Tamoxifin and Toremefine work great, look in the PCT section and you can find Swiftos reccomendations for PCT in there. You can also use clomid in place of the tamoxifine but on a mild cycle like you are doing a combination of Tamox/Torem will work excellent for PCT without the annoying sides often seen with Clomid.

Good luck and great work on your physique so far.

FFM

Damn you type fast Machine LOL.

I would go 12 days with Enan on pct and 16 with Cyp as at your age and in these dosage amounts I would expect your levels of exogenous test to have dropped in this period but either way is fine.

2nd PS if you do use clomid you can take it before bed to lessen sides if you find the sides troublesome.

[J. Cole]

I can get my hands on testosterone cypionate fairly easy, so I will go with that one. I understand what you guys are saying as par as the mg/cc conversion the cc's are determined depending on the concentration stated on the vial? Correct me if I am wrong, but that is what i took from your information. As far as dosage per week, I am looking to pin once a week, and I like the idea of starting at 350mg a week and bumping it up to 400-450 if I feel the need to. A friend recommended I pyramid the cycle (ie. start at a low dose gradually peak and then work back down to a low does again), but you guys recommend keeping it at a constant dose for the whole 12 weeks? Is there a benefit to doing either / which one is better?

As far as pct, you guys are throwing a lot of information at me and I just want to clarify. I will start pct 3 weeks after my last shot b/c you stated cypionate lasts 3 weeks in the body. You mentioned arminidex as an anti estrogen, isnt that taken in conjunction with the test cypionate (ie. throughout the cycle)? Also, can i use only nolvadex as pct instead of both nolvadex and clomid. I have heard some not so good things about clomid. Thanks alot guys keep the great info coming i appreciate it!

[deladude]

ok say u have a 10cc bottle (cc is same as ml) and its 250mg/ml that meens every ml you draw up into the syringe is 250mg of test. 2ml = 500mg

btw i wouldnt pyramid. just keep your levels even. starting low lots of people back load and start with a lot higher dose then go back to their normal. i say **** that, jump start that shit with some dbol

[dsldsl1980]

You should pin twice a week, 250mg each pin. And you should run both for PCT as they will help you recover faster and keep your gains. If you run HCG while on cycle then you may be able to get away with only Nolva from what I have read. HCG would be an addtional pin twice a week, but its an easy one, insulin . I will be trying it on my next cycle.

[dsldsl1980]

oh and you should start at 250 twice a week, not work your way up. It takes time for it to kick in so for the first month or so your test levels will slowly be increasing.

[mario_ps2]

I would definitely look in front-loading the first week but that's is just my opinion.. I know that a lot of guys don't like to front-load but I have found out from experience that it kicks in much, much faster.. usually the second week instead of waiting until the 4th week and you can end your cycle earlier.

[J. Cole]

Thank you everyone on the cc mL mg confusion I was having! I understand now.

As far as the cypionate:
1. Isn't 500mg per week a little much for a first cycle?
2. What is the difference between doing the whole dose in one pin per week or splitting it in half twice a week?

PCT:
1. What is the difference between letrozole and arimidex (anastrozole) and which one is more effective for my first cycle which is not too intense lower doses (around 350mg)? Also, are both run during the cycle dosed around 1mL / twice a week? Are the "research chemicals" as affective as the real stuff?
2. I'm leaning more towards the non HGC side I have never pinned before and want to get used to just the cypionate pinning first. Thank you though for the tip.
3. I will see what I can get my hands on as far as nolva and clomid and will base my pct on that aspect of it. Would you guys recommend the "research chems" for this stuff too? And thanks for the breakdown machine5150 for the dosing. PCT should last only 4 weeks and start 3 weeks after my last shot because that is that active life of cypionate, correct?


THANK YOU EVERYONE!

[Scottish-Muscle]

splitting keeps blood levels under control to some extent hence stopping a lot of pesty sides IIRC
letrozole is far harsher can kill your libido completely, adex ran at say 0.25mg eod would be more ideal and less harsh on the system lowering estro safely. IIRC letro would mainly be for a bad gyno case? Just run the adex 0.25mg eod imo if you need it.
HCG will keep your nuts healthier, full and intact and therefore your recovery will be not as hard.

[HALTEH]

Thank you everyone on the cc mL mg confusion I was having! I understand now.

As far as the cypionate:
1. Isn't 500mg per week a little much for a first cycle?
Not really, bro. Lots of people start out at 500. It's optimum. If you really are nervous for some reason, you can go to 400. But personally, I wouldnt go any lower than that.


2. What is the difference between doing the whole dose in one pin per week or splitting it in half twice a week?
Myself, and lots of other split it up for a number of reasons. Myself, I just don't like injecting that much oil into my body all at once (especially since I new to the pinning). It'll take longer to inject, potentially hurt more once you're done etc. It's also believed that it keeps the substance in your blood at more of a constant blood level as opposed to fluctuating up and down for the whole 12 weeks when you're doing the two pins per week.


PCT:
1. What is the difference between letrozole and arimidex (anastrozole) and which one is more effective for my first cycle which is not too intense lower doses (around 350mg)? Also, are both run during the cycle dosed around 1mL / twice a week? Are the "research chemicals" as affective as the real stuff?
Arimidex is less harsh. I would stay away from letrozole until you get into harsher cycles. Letro is alot stronger, and may work better, but also has harsher sides. It absolutely destroys your estrogen (which is needed more muscle growth and to keep your immune system healthy). I wouldn't run them during the cycle unless you know you are prone to estrogen related side effects (bloating, gyno, etc). Usually just keep them on hand so that in case anything does come up, you have it right there to kill it off immediately.


2. I'm leaning more towards the non HGC side I have never pinned before and want to get used to just the cypionate pinning first. Thank you though for the tip.
Touche.


3. I will see what I can get my hands on as far as nolva and clomid and will base my pct on that aspect of it. Would you guys recommend the "research chems" for this stuff too? And thanks for the breakdown machine5150 for the dosing. PCT should last only 4 weeks and start 3 weeks after my last shot because that is that active life of cypionate, correct?
As for PCT, machine5150 explained it perfect. And yesir, you got it!


THANK YOU EVERYONE!

I am young myself (only 21), so before people get in here and start harassing me (as its been done before), I stand strongly behind my input here. There's a few things I'm sure others could add, but this is the majority of what you need to know. I've done my research for many years. And I can see your trying to do yours. I highly suggest you don't start until you feel comfortable answering these kind of questions on your own. You're on the right forums, and on the right track though!

Good luck with everything and keep us posted!

[Far from massive]

The HCG is usually pinned twice per week at 250IU's if you get a 5000 IU ampoule and mix it with 5ml of bacteriostatic water then that means its at a concentration of 1000iu's per ml. Now here is the good part that means you only have to pin 1/4ml twice per week and this injection is generally given with an insulin syringe in the belly. Think about it, thats a 30 gauge needle and 1/4 ml you won't even feel it.

By the way the usage of HCG on cycle will keep the testes active, allowing quicker recovery during PCT.

As far as PCT and not wanting to run the Clomid only the Nolva remember in my post where I told you that you can run Nolva and Torem together both are very friendly chems with Torem a type II being the nicest of the nice. Both of them are available from AR-R and are good to go. Also I would strongly reccomend you start PCT sooner than 3 weeks as said earlier about 16 days would probably be good time. Some would say 18 but at a low dosage and with a young metabolism I would shoot for 16.

[J. Cole]

Call me a fairy, but I am definitely staying away from hcg for my first cycle, I want to see how my body reacts to one compound at a time. thank you for the info though.

what is torem, and why is it good to run with nolva? why do i need two compounds for pct, is nolva not strong enough / effective enough alone for pct? Also, do i need two pct compounds if i intend on running an AI such as arimidex during the cycle? let me know

thanks

[HALTEH]

Call me a fairy, but I am definitely staying away from hcg for my first cycle, I want to see how my body reacts to one compound at a time. thank you for the info though.

what is torem, and why is it good to run with nolva? why do i need two compounds for pct, is nolva not strong enough / effective enough alone for pct? Also, do i need two pct compounds if i intend on running an AI such as arimidex during the cycle? let me know

thanks

You dont need to compounds for PCT, no. But it also wont hurt to have them.

Dont compare AI's and SERMs. They do completely different things. Just because you have an AI, it does not get rid of the fact that you need a PCT (one or two, doesnt matter)

Again tho, like I said above.. I wouldnt reccomend running any AI throughout the cycle right from the start. Just have it on hand in case its needed.

[J. Cole]

You dont need to compounds for PCT, no. But it also wont hurt to have them.

Dont compare AI's and SERMs. They do completely different things. Just because you have an AI, it does not get rid of the fact that you need a PCT (one or two, doesnt matter)

Again tho, like I said above.. I wouldnt reccomend running any AI throughout the cycle right from the start. Just have it on hand in case its needed.

So halteh, you are saying for my first cycle just run the testosterone and if i start to bloat or have signs of gyno start taking the ai? then nolvadex alone is sufficient for pct in the 40/40/20/20 dosage, but taking two compounds is more affective.

[HALTEH]

So halteh, you are saying for my first cycle just run the testosterone and if i start to bloat or have signs of gyno start taking the ai? then nolvadex alone is sufficient for pct in the 40/40/20/20 dosage, but taking two compounds is more affective.

Exactly.

Once you do this cycle, and possibly another one, you'll start to know and feel out your body and figure out weather or not you're prone to the estrognenic side effects. If you are, then run the AI with your cycles. If not, don't touch em until its needed!

[Far from massive]

HCG is not a steroid , so its not like running two compounds where you will have to worry about which one caused a certain side. On a test only cycle atrophy will not be that bad so you if you don't want to run it you wont have a pair of raisins at the end of the cycle. However I will help your PCT by keeping the testicles active during the cycle. Torem is Toremifene and is a second generation Serm the main reason second gen serms were developed is to lessen sides, I have run Torem many times and find it to be completely free of sides and see no reason not to add it to Nolva. If you go the the PCT section and look at the posts by Swifto you can read about using it in combination with Nolva complete with dosing reccomendations.

PS I agree with HALTEH compeletly on the use of AI's I used to alway run a small dose of AI's and now find that I can run up to a gram a wk of test and the only time I use an AI is every couple of weeks I will find I am holding a little water and run a small dose to dry out then I am fine for another couple of weeks.

[J. Cole]

Hello Everyone,

I am happy to say that I am finally comfortable with this cycle. I think it is a simple and safe first cycle that I think will be more than effective. Thank you everyone for your contributions.
Here is an overview of what I decided for my first cycle:

Main Cycle:
Testosterone Cypionate from Week 1-12 @ 400mg/week

(I am planning on having an AI such as arimidex on hand in case I start to bloat or see signs of gyno to run with the cycle at .25mg EOD)

PCT:(PCT starting 15 days after last injection)

Nolvadex :
Weeks 1-2: 40mg ED
Weeks 2-4: 20mg ED

Toremifen:
Weeks 1-2: 120mg ED
Weeks 2-4: 60mg ED

I wanted to keep it simple and safe for my first cycle. Let me know if anyone has any corrections or last minute advice. Thanks again for all your help I will keep you updated on my progress this summer.

[HALTEH]

Good luck, brotha. Keep us posted on the gains and dont forget ..... eat like a ****in' machine!!!

[Far from massive]

Excellent Cycle, you should do real well with it judging by your appearence and history. Although not as advantageous on a long cycle as a short on, a good read in on priming or eating to prepare the body for rapid gains while on cycle. This is an article by Marcus and in my experience has caused really rapid gains compared to just normal eating precycle.

The Prime explained before cycling..

[vtach12]

Keep us updated on your gains.

[MBMETC]

Finally g2g

[J. Cole]

Will definitely keep everyone updated thanks again for all the help!