Hcg on it's own?

**Scottish-Muscle** · 04-27-2011, 05:26 PM

Endo is giving me a months supply of hcg on it's own. Is this wise? many people telling me hcg on it's own will cause gyno probs and not great on it's own...

My test is 7.4
free test 245
estradiol 88

Been like tht for a year. Already getting some gyno, well small tissues behind nipple and nipples a bit puffy at times. Also my nuts are like cashews but even though hcg will blow them back up to walnuts lmao... The gyno issue I don't want getting worse...

**Blade15** · 04-27-2011, 05:29 PM

Anyone??

**Scottish-Muscle** · 04-27-2011, 05:38 PM

Also just to add im not disregarding my endo. They have been useless in past, 1 shot of sust in december then left me be after that as that one disapeared to another hospital so I got assigned a diff one who never got back to me till 4 months later and says hcg for a month.

I have low test from excessive corticoid-steroids as I have colitis. It's in remission now and im fine thankfully, but last year was a nightmare and was on them pretty much all year so it wrecked me quite a bit. The endos seem VERY unsure of what to do, and have even admitted this at times, think it's because of my age they are worried about fertility etc, but tbh im prob infertile temp as it is from all this mess anyway.

**Tlee8769** · 04-27-2011, 07:10 PM

Get you BW done see where all your levels are at and then work from there. If your low in test which it sounds go to a specialist and get on HRT and it will get you rockin to your former self believe me i have been through the ringer myself. Any more questions PM me bro.

**Scottish-Muscle** · 04-28-2011, 03:19 AM

^I know mate I was going to go on cycle instead but this has kind of changed things, my blood work is above.

The endo wants me to do 3,000 IU of hcg . So 1,500IU x2 per week. For 3 months... Any ideas?

**Scottish-Muscle** · 04-28-2011, 03:50 PM

well since no 1 got back just jabbed the 1,500iu...

should i run nolva and clomid as well?

**Tlee8769** · 04-28-2011, 04:14 PM

What does your doctor say? I would maybe run aromasin 10mg eod but im no doctor. You should be asking him for advice on your situation and get an expert opinion.

**biggymrat** · 04-28-2011, 04:46 PM

I am currently on HRT, but before my doc would give me test she wanted me to try HCG for 3 months. I wasn't as informed as I am now so I just took the HCG without complaining. The only sides I got from it was a lot of acne. My test levels didn't raise much and my over all feeling of energy didn't improve much either.

**YoungMan** · 04-28-2011, 04:58 PM

i would the hcg first and try it before getting on HRT its worth a shot to get your naturals levels up...

**5x10** · 04-28-2011, 05:04 PM

wouldnt do it if your gyno prone
hcg has shown to produce more estrogen than tesosterone

**ucf465** · 04-28-2011, 08:46 PM

alot of times the endo will also prescribe some HMG to run along side the hcg . i would try some nolva if the hcg doesnt work after a couple of months.

**Scottish-Muscle** · 04-29-2011, 04:25 AM

I dunno if im gyno prone, nipples r a bit puffy but had that for a while cause of low test and high estro...

I was advised to take 100mg clomid and 20mg nolva thruout... to prevent estro related sides and gyno from not the endo but another experienced friend. I'll prob do this.

Im not gonna go on hrt, just prob gonna take the test as well... thinking of just starting 250-500mg of test a week throw in an ai and just keep the hcg running, assuming I don't feel any better.

Also as for sides just a bit bloated but nt to much of a problem tbh. Sex drive felt it increased a bit but prob just temporary after the shot, considering I've had rock bottom test for basically a year it make sense for this to happen LOL.

**Scottish-Muscle** · 04-29-2011, 04:27 AM

Originally Posted by ucf465

alot of times the endo will also prescribe some HMG to run along side the hcg. i would try some nolva if the hcg doesnt work after a couple of months.

To be honest my endos an idiot, gives me no advice or anything. I asked what about the gyno if starts getting worse he said aw that will muscle up under your chest, I was like eh? total clown.

**Lemonada8** · 04-29-2011, 07:13 AM

^^ what he meant was that you will build muscle around the lump.

**Scottish-Muscle** · 04-29-2011, 07:20 AM

Originally Posted by Lemonada8

^^ what he meant was that you will build muscle around the lump.

Im 220lbs and lean. It isn't full gyno but prob just puffy nips, but point is I don't want gyno occuring or it getting worse etc. As aromatization on hcg is supposed to be horrendus. So just trying to play it safe if you like...

**dosXX** · 04-29-2011, 11:11 AM

you know your e2 is really high right! If I were you, I would talk to my doctor about getting an AI. Now, HCG is a fertility drug. It's an LH mimetic which means once it enters in your system it acts like an LH which in turn will or might increase your test production that is if your testes are in healthy and good condition. As you have already know, an increase in your test level will also increase your e2, so again talk to your doctor about an AI to keep your e2 levels in good range.

**Scottish-Muscle** · 04-29-2011, 11:39 AM

Was gonna take clomid and nolva, got a few packs of clomid but need to get some nolva....
Didn't think of an AI... didn't think it would be enough? but I already asked endo that I should be adding other stuff and he said no, so i'll just source it myself lol.
But then again I've got 24 amps of test-e so maybe just start a cycle... keep the hcg running get an ai and then just do clomid/nolva pct afterwards...

**Tlee8769** · 04-29-2011, 02:55 PM

Originally Posted by dosXX

you know your e2 is really high right! If I were you, I would talk to my doctor about getting an AI. Now, HCG is a fertility drug. It's an LH mimetic which means once it enters in your system it acts like an LH which in turn will or might increase your test production that is if your testes are in healthy and good condition. As you have already know, an increase in your test level will also increase your e2, so again talk to your doctor about an AI to keep your e2 levels in good range.

^^^^^^^ Solid advice AI bro not nolva clomid

**Lemonada8** · 04-29-2011, 03:20 PM

Dont take clomid. That will have more overflowing effects than good. It overproduces all the other hormones in the Ant. Pit (cortisol, test. Tamox would be good, a SERM to block the excess estrogen which's effect would help negate the excess needed by the body, therefore downregulating the aromatization and boosting ur testosterone . Or you could just bite the bullet and go on blast/cruise for ur life, its actually gotten alot better and if u dont wanna blast, test cyp is still great, along with sust for hrt options.

also tell ur doc ur plans for the SERM.

**Scottish-Muscle** · 04-29-2011, 04:41 PM

Originally Posted by Lemonada8

Dont take clomid. That will have more overflowing effects than good. It overproduces all the other hormones in the Ant. Pit (cortisol, test. Tamox would be good, a SERM to block the excess estrogen which's effect would help negate the excess needed by the body, therefore downregulating the aromatization and boosting ur testosterone . Or you could just bite the bullet and go on blast/cruise for ur life, its actually gotten alot better and if u dont wanna blast, test cyp is still great, along with sust for hrt options.

also tell ur doc ur plans for the SERM.

Not looking for hrt lol only 21 bit young for that yet haha. But would hapily blast and cruize if it never affected fertility. Would have thought the clomid would have been beneficial for the LH regulation, hcg makes a mess with all the aromatization. So maybe run tamox and arimidex to get best of both?

**Tlee8769** · 04-29-2011, 05:35 PM

You need to research a lot more in PCT section read everyone then come back asking questions cause you should never run nolvadex and Arimidex at the same time. Aromasin and Nolvadex would be better if you want to go that way but i say stick to an AI ed and see how your sides are nno need to overkill it with both if you dont need it you are only taking HCG an AI will control the estrogen and if it doesnt jump on the Nolvadex.

**Lemonada8** · 04-29-2011, 05:45 PM

Imo no need for a ai yet, that's stronger than a serm but a serm does what you want which ultimately decrease the rate of aromatization...(what is amplified due to increased test and tren cycle that's ur past, true weirdnot fully recovered but the fact remains) the serm will competitively bind to the receptors and supply against/antagonist actions (block estrogen but not lose function of receptor)
The hcg will induce your testes to make 2/4 of the hormones in the testes all balanced. It has been shown in hypogonadal males that it can help boost everything by the way of paracrine action ( think spread the word) the induced hormones would induce the others.
using the serm would help minimize the aromatization, -> keeping more free estrogen around -> increasing negative feed back which lowers the rate of aromatization with out directly inhibiting it.

**dosXX** · 05-02-2011, 10:07 AM

Originally Posted by Lemonada8

Imo no need for a ai yet, that's stronger than a serm but a serm does what you want which ultimately decrease the rate of aromatization...(what is amplified due to increased test and tren cycle that's ur past, true weirdnot fully recovered but the fact remains) the serm will competitively bind to the receptors and supply against/antagonist actions (block estrogen but not lose function of receptor)
The hcg will induce your testes to make 2/4 of the hormones in the testes all balanced. It has been shown in hypogonadal males that it can help boost everything by the way of paracrine action ( think spread the word) the induced hormones would induce the others.
using the serm would help minimize the aromatization, -> keeping more free estrogen around -> increasing negative feed back which lowers the rate of aromatization with out directly inhibiting it.

From what I've read, SERM (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator) does not reduce the aromatize enzyme but rather it competes with other estrogen in binding to an e2 receptors. It is considered as a very weak estrogen type of compound. Hence the name SERMs

**THE-DET-OAK** · 05-02-2011, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by dosXX

you know your e2 is really high right! If I were you, I would talk to my doctor about getting an AI. Now, HCG is a fertility drug. It's an LH mimetic which means once it enters in your system it acts like an LH which in turn will or might increase your test production that is if your testes are in healthy and good condition. As you have already know, an increase in your test level will also increase your e2, so again talk to your doctor about an AI to keep your e2 levels in good range.

^^^^ yes............and since HCG directly stimulates aromatization and your E2 is about 3x as high as it should an AI is necessary.

**THE-DET-OAK** · 05-02-2011, 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by dosXX

From what I've read, SERM (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator) does not reduce the aromatize enzyme but rather it competes with other estrogen in binding to an e2 receptors. It is considered as a very weak estrogen type of compound. Hence the name SERMs

you are correct, it just blocks E from hitting the receptors, estrogen is still high and wreaking havoc on your body.

sorry lem, but telling this guy no AI is needed is terrible advice, its 88 when it should be 25-30. and whoever told you that a SERM does the same thing as an AI should not be playing with these drugs.

**Lemonada8** · 05-02-2011, 01:02 PM

SERMs lower aromatization secondarly(due to paracrine properties) . the test converts, has no receptor to go to it stays in the system as estrogen. The elevated estrogen levels would then lower natural Aromatase levels by the way of feedback inhibition. Using a serm and hcg isnt as aggressive as using a AI and HCG. However, with useing a AI you have the chance with having a estrogen rebound when finished. besides, this is all extra to what the doctor recommended.
Why jump right to a pill that will stop something, that when taking a different type can help naturally lower the amount of enzyme instead of just inhibit it? What happens when he stops taking the AI what happens? big chance for a estro rebound.
also since the OP is 21, sounds like it wasnt from gear induced self medication, but a true problem and using these compounds in a non-functional system has different effects than adding to a normal system.

What was the value of ur SHBG? be sure to ask ur doc about that also.

**THE-DET-OAK** · 05-02-2011, 01:06 PM

dude you gotta stop telling people SERM's lower estrogen, they just dont. any lowering of the amount of aromatase enzymes is negligible, since your high T is also telling it to produce more enzymes. estrogen rebound is touted online more than it actually happens, get out of the 90's dude and use an AI.

you know is estrogen is 88 right????? what do you think that number is gonna be when he adds HCG ? since it directly stimulates aromatisation, oh wait there goes your lowering estrogen through feedback theory, its out the window again.................................

**Lemonada8** · 05-02-2011, 01:16 PM

since when does HCG directly stimulate the conversion of testosterone to estrogen?
HCG has no effect on armatization, other than the fact that it increases testosterone which is needed for conversion.

Also OP doesnt have high T...

**THE-DET-OAK** · 05-02-2011, 01:17 PM

since the begining of its use dude, it does so in the leydig cells. HCG DOES IN FACT DIRECTLY STIMULATE AROMATIZATION. I cant argue with you anymore lem, your just too far behind, stuck in the 90's

**THE-DET-OAK** · 05-02-2011, 01:19 PM

there are much more recent studies than this, but since you ask " since when does HCG stimulate aromtization" i figured i would post this one from 1979.

These results demonstrate that purified Leydig cells have a high capacity for aromatization and that hCG can acutely stimulate aromatization independently of stimulating testosterone synthesis in vitro.

http://www.pnas.org/content/76/9/4460.abstract

**Lemonada8** · 05-02-2011, 01:32 PM

So if HCG stimulates Aromatization, how come it increases testosterone levels unproportionally to estrogen levels?
alot of those studies are done in-vitro.

**THE-DET-OAK** · 05-02-2011, 01:33 PM

im not arguing with you bro, it stimulates aromatization, many many guys report gyno issues with its use, its pretty common knowledge. there are plenty of studies on hypo men with fertility issues to back this up, I dont know why you are so surprised.

**Lemonada8** · 05-02-2011, 01:53 PM

It never occured to me it as altered armatization. I thought the HCG stimulated the testes which increased test which in turn increases the aromatizatase due to increase test in the system.