Of course you can run aas at 18... I did.

**The Bear 79** · 04-28-2012, 06:25 PM

Originally Posted by swm1972

Bear

Are you shitting me? The scientific level of acceptance would require the supporters of a theory to validate it. Not the other way around. Educated my ass. My 5th grader would know better then to make a statement like that.

His theory / claim is that everything anyone says about the dangers of cycling too young are "false scare tactics"..........................I say prove it. Not everyone has to punk out like you & hide behind " I don't have to prove anything you're the one that has to prove it".....................the only people that hide behind that bull sh!t are those that have NOTHING to support their end of the debate.

**bigswoll** · 04-28-2012, 06:59 PM

I love this shit.

**swm1972** · 04-28-2012, 07:49 PM

Originally Posted by The Bear 79

.......the only people that hide behind that bull sh!t are those that have NOTHING to support their end of the debate.

I'm glad you see it my way.

**The Bear 79** · 04-28-2012, 07:58 PM

Originally Posted by swm1972

I'm glad you see it my way.

One stupid fvcking cop out after another, that's all your good for. I'm done here, believe what you want.

AD · 04-28-2012, 08:30 PM

it has been said multiple times in this forum that doctors don't know much about roids usage and related complications, not just GPs, but also endocrinologists. it is true, cos AAS is not something you see regularly in the practice of mainstream medicine. and obviously, being illegal, it is impossible to do legitimate research on it since nothing will pass thru the ethics committee. to do research on complications of roid usage in the young adult is even less likely.

so... if real doctors don't know much about this, i wonder how much more, or less, pharmacists know....

which is why online forum like this is so popular among users. people share their personal experiences and knowledge. if more than a few vets agree on the same point, i'll definitely pay more attention to their opinions, till proper scientific research can be done. which is probably never, given the ethical constraints.

**Thor249** · 04-28-2012, 09:52 PM

Originally Posted by The Bear 79

....

Ohhhh ok badass why don't you let us all know what school this is?

All the shit you're talking really shows how educated you are.... Your school must be so proud.

But really what school is this? Sounds almost like Ivy league. Is that it?

**big88sub** · 04-28-2012, 10:10 PM

Originally Posted by asiandude

it has been said multiple times in this forum that doctors don't know much about roids usage and related complications, not just GPs, but also endocrinologists. it is true, cos AAS is not something you see regularly in the practice of mainstream medicine. and obviously, being illegal, it is impossible to do legitimate research on it since nothing will pass thru the ethics committee. to do research on complications of roid usage in the young adult is even less likely.

so... if real doctors don't know much about this, i wonder how much more, or less, pharmacists know....

which is why online forum like this is so popular among users. people share their personal experiences and knowledge. if more than a few vets agree on the same point, i'll definitely pay more attention to their opinions, till proper scientific research can be done. which is probably never, given the ethical constraints.

Ethics committee thank you. The personal experience of these guys is the only real research that has ever been done on humans and a pharmacist is probably the last person I'd turn to because they are in the least respectable position here. Any place where you can talk to a person at a drive through relay knows there shit rite. Just like all those people at bk can relay **** up everything about someone's oder and I've seen done on numerous occasions by pharmacists. I barely trust doctors because they've almost killed several people in my family with what they considered as low risk procedures. Point being ****ing I forgot the point of this thread o. Aas can have serious and long term effects if not cycles properly and in manageable levels at a point when your body is fully developed period........

**LolWuter** · 04-28-2012, 10:25 PM

^ Dude you're making yourself sound like an idiot. Whenever you go to a Pharmacy, most likely you're talking to a tech or an intern. You can hold your own opinions on juice, but don't sound like an idiot about other things.

**big88sub** · 04-28-2012, 10:39 PM

Originally Posted by LolWuter

^ Dude you're making yourself sound like an idiot. Whenever you go to a Pharmacy, most likely you're talking to a tech or an intern. You can hold your own opinions on juice, but don't sound like an idiot about other things.

Point being pharmacists have get no respect in the real world regardless how much you think you know about drugs you cannot prove cause and effect. You know what this thread is way to far off topic and its just a waste of time. It has become nothing but a personal vendetta for you to try to sound intelligent and I'm going to waste anymore time with it.

**traindude** · 04-29-2012, 02:04 AM

When did pro bodybuilders start to take steroids ?

15 years old?
18 years old?
21 years old?
25 years old?

**big88sub** · 04-29-2012, 02:29 AM

Originally Posted by traindude

When did pro bodybuilders start to take steroids ?

15 years old?
18 years old?
21 years old?
25 years old?

Is this a rhetorical question where you ask this just to try to justify someone young using aas because if it is just use Google and do whatever the hell you wanna do. That's exactly what it sounds like where your going with this as to where this thread led. I'm done with this somebody else needs to bang their head against this wall of stupid.

**Thor249** · 04-29-2012, 03:14 AM

Originally Posted by big88sub

Point being pharmacists have get no respect in the real world regardless how much you think you know about drugs you cannot prove cause and effect. You know what this thread is way to far off topic and its just a waste of time. It has become nothing but a personal vendetta for you to try to sound intelligent and I'm going to waste anymore time with it.

Yeah they get no respect, they just make probably 5x your salary. They have weak schooling too, your highschool diploma surely makes you more knowledgeable on the subject.... Do you people listen to yourselves?

How can you sit there and say these doctors and even pharmacists don't know shit about AAS..... I'll tell you what they may not be specialists, but they sure as hell have more credibility and knowledge on AAS than the morons you who read info threads and think they are experts.

Tell you what buddy why don't you and bear go do 10 years of school studying in the med field and then you can come and educate me. Until then keep your "Internet" knowledge on the low.

**big88sub** · 04-29-2012, 03:33 AM

I don't need anymore schooling. When your car brakes down I can fix it when you need a house e built I can build it when you need something machined I can.do it I have every imaginable skill in my hands and its people like you that can't do these things for yourself where I can do it all. You my getting a degree in whatever and still be a retatd. I've seen thousands of people like you smart as hell but didn't have a clue. I have just about the easiest job you can have I do about an hr worth of work a day and I'd relay like to meet a ****ing pharmacist that make 150000 a year. Don't forget everything you spend money on because you have no skills on your hands I can and don't have to spend my money on. Point being i can you can't don't be mad just get over it I'm the man you wish you could be. Like I said this is a personal vendetta for you and I'm not humoring you anymore because it's hard to win aliasing match.over the internet. It almost sounds like you should start your pct cause you might have some roid rage or some sort of chemical or mental inbalance or something peace.

**Flier** · 04-29-2012, 04:35 AM

Originally Posted by borkach

Great post for sure! But how can you be sure that you didnt have ADHD and OCD before the steroid use . It is quite possible that steroid use can accelerate any psychological/physical illness and possibly result into development of new ones. There is a clear link between insomnia and ADHD. What I'm trying to say is that, you might have had a little development of ADHD while you were a teenager, after hormonal imbalances of steroid use it resulted into sever ADHD that could possibly triggered insomnia. My point is that, if a person has preexisting psychological/physical illness (doesn't have to be fully developed), after usage of steroids , those illnesses may become fully develop and trigger another ones. That could happen at any age (ex. if a person is: easily irritated, and easily stressed, after use and during use of steroids this person could become a total psychopath), no one knows what will happen after that, maybe he will develop more severe psychological disorders.
If a person has a preexisting illness, use of steroids is not for them, because it will be followed by drastic consequences. On another hand if a person is completely healthy ( physically and psychologically) his steroid use could result in less harm, AND significantly less than a person that was already ill before steroid use.

^^^^Pretty much.
A 18 yo will not be physically or mentally ready to cause such havoc on the HPTA.
The Hormone imbalance will amplify existing conditions as it did in the OP.

For the same reasons I advised my brother at 50 yo not to take the gear I gave him for his first cycle, as he´s struggling with a divorce after 20 y marriage, and showing signs of depression.

One need to be physically and MENTALLY ready for a cycle.

I would argue that no 18 yo is mentally ready for a cycle, as aside from the HPTA, the brain is not fully developed yet. And a 18 yo simply lacks life experience to evaluate mental readiness.

This goes for any drug which robs the brain for hormones.
Case and point, my nephew took X one night, as millions of others, but unlike millions of others, he never "came back".
Parallel to Gear and Testosterone , X causes a surge in Seratonin, which causes a depletion in the days following. Unless the user is mentally equipped to handle this, the lack of Serotonin will cause an anxiety induced psychosis which is a bitch to exit.
Exactly the same will happen in the absence of Testosterone, for someone who is not mentally equipped.
"Equipped" starts with a fully developed brain, which happens around 20-21 when the Frontal Lobe completes the process. (Where decision making takes place)

**swm1972** · 04-29-2012, 04:48 AM

Originally Posted by Flier

^^^^Pretty much.
A 18 yo will not be physically or mentally ready to cause such havoc on the HPTA.
The Hormone imbalance will amplify existing conditions as it did in the OP.

For the same reasons I advised my brother at 50 yo not to take the gear I gave him for his first cycle, as he´s struggling with a divorce after 20 y marriage, and showing signs of depression.

One need to be physically and MENTALLY ready for a cycle.

I would argue that no 18 yo is mentally ready for a cycle, as aside from the HPTA, the brain is not fully developed yet. And a 18 yo simply lacks life experience to evaluate mental readiness.

This goes for any drug which robs the brain for hormones.
Case and point, my nephew took X one night, as millions of others, but unlike millions of others, he never "came back".
Parallel to Gear and Testosterone , X causes a surge in Seratonin, which causes a depletion in the days following. Unless the user is mentally equipped to handle this, the lack of Serotonin will cause an anxiety induced psychosis which is a bitch to exit.
Exactly the same will happen in the absence of Testosterone, for someone who is not mentally equipped.
"Equipped" starts with a fully developed brain, which happens around 20-21 when the Frontal Lobe completes the process. (Where decision making takes place)

I started my first cycle during a depressing part of my life (divorce related as well, typically unfortunate for men). I was looking at losing my home, business I had built up over a decade, and children. I was running Iranian cidotestin at 500 mgs/week for 12. I actually found it improved my mental state quite a bit.

But, I was hrt already and never had to deal with the coming off pct bs.

**gettintherequick** · 04-29-2012, 05:47 AM

Professionally monitored long term studies on steroid use from a young age is the ONLY way of determining what long term side effects may result from steroid use.

However, with regard to mental issues this is a completely flawed area. For example, in studies regarding substance abuse (cannabis) and induced mental disorders (schizophrenia) there can be no way of actually determining whether such abuse caused the development of such a mental disorder or not as there is no way of determining whether the individual would not have developed it in the long term anyway.

The only time the theory can be applied directly is if an individual develops a disorder immediately or as a direct result of taking a substance. This applies to most substance abuse, steroids included, with regards to mental elements. Physical elements are much more black and white, it can be proven that steroids have negative physical effects as they are seen as an immediate and direct result of the substance use.

With regard to the OP and his mental conditions, i believe steroids acted as a 'trigger' and further exasperated underlying conditions and i am truly sorry to hear this, i hope u feel better soon my friend. I can be more confident in saying the physical elements are most likely induced by steroid use, and more importantly improper pct protocol.

All the best

**nooby** · 04-29-2012, 07:47 AM

You don't even need a phd to become a pharmacist anymore. I am in the medical field and you glossed over the points I was making. Have fun selling tampons, and condems at CVS, because with your reading comprehension thats the only thing i would trust you to do.

**ending** · 04-29-2012, 08:44 AM

Thank you very much for sharing this. Hearing how much aas have messed with your health is deffinately going to stop me from taking them until I get old enough.
I wish you all the best, hope you are able to put your life back together again and get healthier.

**binsser** · 04-29-2012, 09:34 AM

Great thread but my first cycle was 500mg of sust and 750mg of tren and it didnt do fck all to me and i was 18 its just no good to do it young because you dont need it your body is natrualy ready to go dont now about all the rest.. sleep like a baby and shag like a rabbit so guess 50 percent are lucky 50 arent?

**binsser** · 04-29-2012, 09:38 AM

oh and smoking cannabis does cause schizophrenia loads of my mates smoke and there all not quite right but when they stop a few months later there very much differant incuding alot cleaner its a dirty drug!

**FONZY007** · 04-29-2012, 11:00 AM

Originally Posted by Thor249

Yeah they get no respect, they just make probably 5x your salary. They have weak schooling too, your highschool diploma surely makes you more knowledgeable on the subject.... Do you people listen to yourselves?

How can you sit there and say these doctors and even pharmacists don't know shit about AAS..... I'll tell you what they may not be specialists, but they sure as hell have more credibility and knowledge on AAS than the morons you who read info threads and think they are experts.

Tell you what buddy why don't you and bear go do 10 years of school studying in the med field and then you can come and educate me. Until then keep your "Internet" knowledge on the low.

Pharmacist make 5x my salary trust me I think most make just under 100k with few over

I graduated high school, did a year and a half in college and worked 8 years as a lab tech than changed to making culture ( work at a manufacturing plant). I say put all my salary and retirement together I make 80k a year, shít if I can get paid 5x's I will jump over it..

But how can you make a claim as to where my pharmacist will know whats up, mine is so stupid I told him I needed more syringes cuz my prescription states 1/2cc bi weekly, prescription is for 3 months meaning I need 24 not 12 ugh

I also do not claim I am an expert, but being that I been messing around with it for the past 10+ years I think I know what does what, do they teach the medical doctor or pharmacist for 10 years just on AAS or testosterone ?. My endo is even a little under knowledge on subject..

Every one just need to calm down....

**JDBeretta** · 04-29-2012, 11:59 AM

I'm not going to read all of the posts... Great original post.

If your chance of this happening is even slight, wouldn't you want to mitigate that risk as much as possible?

Sticky this post or something.

**LolWuter** · 04-29-2012, 12:12 PM

You don't even need a phd to become a pharmacist anymore. I am in the medical field and you glossed over the points I was making. Have fun selling tampons, and condems at CVS, because with your reading comprehension thats the only thing i would trust you to do.

You need a PharmD, which is a professional degree, ranked about doctorate degrees. Retail Pharmacy pays well over $100,000 at every job, especially since I live in NYC. My boss is making $65 an hour and I'll ****ing take that any day. I'm currently a tech part time while I'm finishing up the degree and I'm doing the job that you're actually thinking of, which is selling the stuff, and counting and packaging the medication.

Retail Pharmacy actually pays more than hospital pharmacy. It's more like you're running a business but you know about the actual drugs, interactions, and how to make them.

Also, you ****ing idiot, tampons and condoms aren't pharmacy items. More like, have fun running a business, because the Pharmacy is pretty much yours to run. You're a higher paid businessman who knows a tremendous amount about drugs.

I DOUBT YOU'RE IN THE MEDICAL FIELD. You ****ing idiot, Pharmacists never needed Phds, those are research degrees. They used to only need Bachelors, but now it's a professional degree similar to JD and MD, called a PharmD.

Anyways, back to the thread. We don't know what this guy took, but he obviously wasn't ready or he's just playing the old Don Hooton blame game. This site shouldn't even call itself a steroid website anymore with some of its members. Some of these guys should go work for the Don Hooton Foundation: http://taylorhooton.org/ You'll get a laugh reading about how the "average age for steroid use is 15". I thought it was 25, which is the actual average age, but I guess it's 10 years younger.

**JDBeretta** · 04-29-2012, 12:17 PM

Originally Posted by LolWuter

You need a PharmD, which is a professional degree, ranked about doctorate degrees. Retail Pharmacy pays well over $100,000 at every job, especially since I live in NYC. My boss is making $65 an hour and I'll ****ing take that any day. I'm currently a tech part time while I'm finishing up the degree and I'm doing the job that you're actually thinking of, which is selling the stuff, and counting and packaging the medication.

Retail Pharmacy actually pays more than hospital pharmacy. It's more like you're running a business but you know about the actual drugs, interactions, and how to make them.

Also, you ****ing idiot, tampons and condoms aren't pharmacy items. More like, have fun running a business, because the Pharmacy is pretty much yours to run. You're a higher paid businessman who knows a tremendous amount about drugs.

I DOUBT YOU'RE IN THE MEDICAL FIELD. You ****ing idiot, Pharmacists never needed Phds, those are research degrees. They used to only need Bachelors, but now it's a professional degree similar to JD and MD, called a PharmD.

Anyways, back to the thread. We don't know what this guy took, but he obviously wasn't ready or he's just playing the old Don Hooton blame game. This site shouldn't even call itself a steroid website anymore with some of its members. Some of these guys should go work for the Don Hooton Foundation: http://taylorhooton.org/ You'll get a laugh reading about how the "average age for steroid use is 15". I thought it was 25, which is the actual average age, but I guess it's 10 years younger.

You mad Bro?

**LolWuter** · 04-29-2012, 12:32 PM

^ Yep. Lol. I'm mad when a website called Steroid .com sounds like a place called Taylorhooton.org/

Bottom line is steroids have side effects, but don't embellish, because that is and still should be against the morals of science.

**JDBeretta** · 04-29-2012, 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by LolWuter

^ Yep. Lol. I'm mad when a website called Steroid .com sounds like a place called Taylorhooton.org/

Bottom line is steroids have side effects, but don't embellish, because that is and still should be against the morals of science.

Fair enough.

**binsser** · 04-29-2012, 01:18 PM

sounds like you should be on a differant site bud!!!!!

**T400-** · 04-30-2012, 06:24 AM

FYI to all the site users with great advice.......

I wanted to do my first cycle when I was about 22 yrs. This site and prob some of you STRONGLY advised against it !!!

I took the advise and waited.... doing first cycle now at 33 yrs old with good results and no real side effects ..... so far !! 600mg Test400/wk

Your great advise was followed and I DO appreciate it !!!

Think I would have regretted a ccyle at that age !!!

**swm1972** · 04-30-2012, 04:42 PM

Originally Posted by LolWuter

^ Yep. Lol. I'm mad when a website called Steroid.com sounds like a place called Taylorhooton.org/ .

I was thinking the same thing.

**sir.solidarity** · 04-30-2012, 08:51 PM

This shit pisses me off.
You're a weak baby who ran to 100 other substances after the AAS and here you are trashing them? You're the f*cking problem not the hormones or any of the drugs.

You had ****ing baggage and problems before the AAS and you had them after. The only relevance I see if the synergy between lack of mental development and your age. Other than that...gtfo of here stop blaming your inability to confront your problems on substances too powerful for your lack of will and moderation.

If you use substances to run from problems, you risk severely exacerbating them following discontinuation because you're identifying them as a means of escape.
Benzo's? Opiates? And you're ****ing blaming steroids kid? Implying you weren't ****ing with any other shit while you were cycling, perhaps before?

Kids should stay away from AAS because yes, it's dangerous to the endo system and generally (somewhat arbitrarily) 25 is about when you SHOULD be safe but who the **** is anyone to say that some 25 yo isnt a bit underdeveloped and ends up risking his nuts? No different than saying a 22 yo is statistically ahead in development and IS prepared.

**sir.solidarity** · 04-30-2012, 09:24 PM

I also get a kick out of "vets" claiming that everyone under 25 clings to every last thing they hear about gear being okay for youngsters when the shit sticks just as fast with the oldies...every last hyper-embellishing story like this one builds your pile of ammunition every time these discussions ensue.

We go through this life once, you can advise all day but get off the pedestal you're in no one elses ****ing shoes but your own so cut the holier than thou bullshit and let people make their own choices. You can talk about studies this that and the other thing all fcking day but there's not enough evidence and there's too many variables and that isn't going to change anytime soon.

And as for HRT, I sometimes wonder if this is a result of "Low test" at a time of "extreme depression" following a poorly managed cycle/pct and that even if that's the case in time...the individual will recover. Instead they slap them on HRT and suck up insurance for the rest of the individuals life, sounds like a good gig to me.

**daniel20** · 04-30-2012, 09:36 PM

Originally Posted by sir.solidarity

Kids should stay away from AAS because yes, it's dangerous to the endo system and generally (somewhat arbitrarily) 25 is about when you SHOULD be safe but who the **** is anyone to say that some 25 yo isnt a bit underdeveloped and ends up risking his nuts? No different than saying a 22 yo is statistically ahead in development and IS prepared.

Agreed. At what age is this "magical" age where your ready to take steroids ? Who's to say that at 30 or 40, your not doing more damage than say someone at 25 or 20?

It is just ironic how we see people blaming these steroids for a host of problems and yet we have doctors prescribing steroids to young teenagers for muscle wasting diseases and delayed puberty etc.

I'm not saying that any kids should cycle because in most cases the maturity, knowledge, diet and training is just not there. Whether you start at 18 or 30, and continue to cycle these hormones then you will eventually end up on TRT, but who's to say you weren't bound for that already?

**big88sub** · 04-30-2012, 09:46 PM

Havent checked this thread out for a while and still see some retards fighting for their stupidity here and o see it most have rubbed off little on me cause in that statement that was made that a pharmacist makes 5times what I do I thought he said two times if that's possible I'll go get enrolled for that degree tomaro because I only make 75gs a year and I have no s hooling no degree other then from the school of hard knocks. I also said something about the scare tactic of using to young and o think that was misinterpreted as thats all it is. It is to scare young people bit the problems are very real and for someone to fight so hard to prove that the dangers are over exaggerated they have alreadyade up their mind and will not except the fact the choices they made were not the rite ones and need to try to decredit the people that fight against their decision to make themselfs feel better. I've already seen several people thank everyone that advised them not to cycle to young and they do not regret the decision bit the people that do not listen or just go on a cycle without having a clue about what they are doing are popping up all the time and admitting that they made a wrong choice. Just grow some balls swallow the pride and listen and learn from other people's mistakes.

**big88sub** · 04-30-2012, 09:51 PM

Can someone just erase this thread it is drawing in to many kids and giving them stupid ideas that everyone is full of shit and there's nothing wrong with cycling to young. I bet most here didn't even read the start of the thread just read whatever parts they wanted to hear and not the truthfull parts.

**big88sub** · 04-30-2012, 10:06 PM

25 is about the age that most people are fully mature. Physically mentally and have their shit straight. If your 30 years old love at home can't keep a job don't have any friends don't care about your Health and still bum gas money from your mother you are not mature enough to be doing a cycle and need.to concentrate those other things that mature people do like keep their jobs have house maybe some kids and just being on the rite track in life. Of coarse a proper diet and several years of training after all that is straightened out then think about it. It takes a lot of dedication to get good results from aas and to be able to keep them. Seriously if aren't even able to keep a pet because you constantly forget to feed it how could you possibly be ready to take on aas. Do whatever the **** y'all want my conscience is clean cause I know I tried to help that kid that wouldn't listen.

**Taunka** · 04-30-2012, 10:10 PM

If you go to the doctor a couple of times get blood done and monitor when your test goes down over a peroid of time, thats when your BODY is partly ready for that commitment. "What age should i take steroids ?" if your training, diet, and rest is not to its FULLEST POTENTIAL, steroids would be not 100% benefit to you(thats the other part). If your well educated about steroids, and you have gone your FULLEST POTENTIAL you will know when your ready for steroid use . Thats my opinion on all this.

**beefy_bod** · 04-30-2012, 10:29 PM

Originally Posted by shooterdude

lol its amazing how smart and wise you think you are when you are 18 and know it all eh, then you grow up a little and 10 years later realize wow if only i knew the things i know now then. Not just refering to steroids but pretty much everything. Testosterone levels are much higher when your 18 and so are ignorance levels lol.

Very true!!

**markdbg** · 05-01-2012, 02:17 AM

i dont believe this post is a post by someone who ran steroids at a young age, your daily problems would not be caused by steroid use alone. the only thing steroids use could have done is mess your hormones and or affected your growrth. they in no way will give u adhd or hypomania. the hypomania can be caused by drugs that have been used to treat depression. only things use of steroids have ever caused proven by 1000s of studies is low sex drive/loss of libido, depression and tiredness/lethargic.

your problems sounds a lot like a couple of my friends, one has been doing cocain daily for 13 years and in now having these problems, the other one friend his brain on acid and after getting out of a psyc ward he is starting to have these problems. im not staying your story is all false, but brought on by steroids. no sir i do not believe it. tho i do feel bad for you, i just dont like when people target steroids as the main problem when theres something else along side of it.

edit-aswell as the side effects of steroids .the will effect ppl of any age, so this is more of a stay away from steroid use rather then a dont do before 25 post. which is a stupid age to be honest.

**sir.solidarity** · 05-01-2012, 08:12 PM

I just don't get how you vets are agreeing with this bullshit. It's the very same nonsense the media has used to completely demonize AAS and anyone who uses it, including you.

**bigswoll** · 05-01-2012, 08:36 PM

Sir solidarity u need to read more and talk less were trying to help ppl realize that running aas can ruin Ur life if u start at a young age. Media gets to bash aas because young stupid fuks that don't listen to vets run cycles and Fuk there bodies up 4ever. Those are the stories u here on the media. Were trying to save the image of aas by giving advice on how to run properly and not damage yourself permanently.