losing all gains after cycle

**stickyfingers** · 01-07-2012, 07:00 AM

hi guys, ive ran two cycles up till now and have always lost all gains after pct. i was 187 when i did my dbol +test-e cycle and went up to a bloated 209 but settled down at around 203. i started pct 2 weeks after cycle and before the end of pct i was back down at 187. my latest cycle was a test-e/tren -e cycle for 12 weeks. i went up to a lean 207-8 but again before i had even finished pct i was back down at 187ish. whats the issue here? ive been maintaining same diet for pct as for cycle.
my pct has been clomid 100/50/50/50 and nolva 40/20/20/20 for both cycles, hcg was also used at 500iu a week from week 3.
any ideas on what ive been doing wrong? do i have really poor recovery and i lose all gains before my natural test comes back?

**Gym_** · 01-07-2012, 07:25 AM

Personally i would not know but i only finished reading this an hr ago before i found your post... whether it is any good to you i have no idea but it dose cover exactly your topic called CRASH ..

It is also important to remember that the use of an injectable testosterone will quickly suppress endogenous testosterone production. It is therefore mandatory to complete a proper post cycle therapy , constisting of HCG and Clomid or Nolvadex at the conclusion of a cycle.

This should help the user avoid a strong "crash" due to hormonal imbalance, which can strip away much of the new muscle mass and strength. This is no doubt the reason why many athletes claim to be very disappointed with the final result of steroid use , as there is often only a slight permanent gain if anabolics are discontinued incorrectly. Of course we cannot expect to retain every pound of new bodyweight after a cycle. This is especially true whenever we are withdrawing a strong (aromatizing) androgen like testosterone, as a considerable drop in weight (and strength) is to be expected as retained water is excreted. This should not be of much concern; instead the user should focus on ancillary drug therapy so as to preserve the solid mass underneath. Another way athletes have found to lessen the "crash", is to first replace the testosterone with a milder anabolic like Deca -Durabolin .

This steroid is administered alone, at a typical dosage (200-400mg per week), for the following month or two. In this "stepping down" procedure the user is attempting to turn the watery bulk of a strong testosterone into the more solid muscularity we see with nandrolone preparations. In many instances this practice proves to be very effective. Of course we must remember to still administer ancillary drugs at the conclusion, as endogenous testosterone production will not be rebounding during the Deca therapy.

**stickyfingers** · 01-07-2012, 08:03 AM

intresting stuff, i had considered trying a short cycle 4 weeks long and seeing if i can hold on to them gains better

**Times Roman** · 01-07-2012, 08:10 AM

if you've lost all gains after a cycle, then i'm going to venture a guess and say you probably didn't have a sufficient natural foundation to begin with?

**stickyfingers** · 01-07-2012, 08:25 AM

i hadnt thought of that before. im not trying to disregard what your saying but why would me not having a good enough natural foundation prevent me from keeping gains on my cycle. i would have thought that if i started a cycle below my natural limit than the gains would be easier to maintain rather than if i cycled when i was at my limit and finished cycle 10lbs over my natutal limit.

**alexISthrowed** · 01-07-2012, 08:28 AM

Post up your full diet and training split.

**Times Roman** · 01-07-2012, 08:29 AM

keeping gains is hard no matter what. if you do not have a sufficient natural foundation, then that tells me that you are not dialed all the way in yet with diet/exercise. There really are no gains without these, and if they are not right, then your cycles will look like rollercoasters...

**FCVtec** · 01-07-2012, 10:58 AM

I was able to keep most of my gains after cycle until i hit 185. I always go back to that once I come off even if keeping a 3500 cal diet, in my case that's my natural Max. Now I am mainly working on improving definition and catching up my legs. Actually when I came off last cycle I stayed at 188. I wanted to go on TRT and no PCT anymore to break through this but I still want kids so may be content with 185 for a while. (I am coming off a cycle and will be down there soon.)

**jimmyinkedup** · 01-07-2012, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by alexISthrowed

Post up your full diet and training split.

These are key.
Sure you could try beefing up your pct but adequate calories and adjusted workout are crucial to gains retention. I suspect those 2 factors more than pct.

**buster12** · 01-07-2012, 01:49 PM

My 1st 2 cycles 15 years ago I screwed up and lost all the gains due to poor diet, had some time off injuries and personal stuff
My cycles now I gain between 18 to 26 lb and I lose between 6 to 9 lb i think the main reason I keep my gains are good pct and eating good diet and clean 6 times a day and 2 whey supplement drinks
Protein every 3 hours from breakfast and just before bedtime

**stickyfingers** · 01-07-2012, 02:00 PM

my training split for the first cycle was joe defrancos WS4SB routine which im sure most of you guys are familiar with. for the second cycle my workout was iron addicts simple power based routine which is

Monday
Squat or box squat 2 x 5
Glute/Ham Raises or pullthroughs 3 x 10
Bent Row or Chest Supported row 4 x 6
Barbell or Dumbbell Curl 3 x 8
Calf Raises 3 x 15

Wednesday
Bench Press or low board press 3 x 5, or 3 x 3
Incline Dumbbell Bench Press 4 x 8
Military or Dumbbell Shoulder Press 3 x 8
Skull Crushers 3 x 10
Ab work 3 x 10

Friday
Deadlift or rack deadlift 2 x 5
Leg press 2 x 10
Chin or lat pull-down 4 x 6
Barbell or Dumbbell Curl 3 x 8
Calf Raises 3 x 15

Monday
Incline bench press or Incline Dumbbell Press 3 x 5, or 3 x 3
Dumbbell Bench Press 4 x 8
Military or Dumbbell Shoulder Press 3 x 8
Tricep pushdowns 3 x 10
Ab work 3 x 10 Monday

**stickyfingers** · 01-07-2012, 02:01 PM

my diet for my last cycle was 3500-3700 cals a day with 350g of protein a day and about half was from shakes, half from food

**jandj** · 01-07-2012, 02:56 PM

buster . what does your pct look like?

**jimmyinkedup** · 01-07-2012, 04:58 PM

Originally Posted by stickyfingers

my diet for my last cycle was 3500-3700 cals a day with 350g of protein a day and about half was from shakes, half from food

I was more reffering to your diet post cycle,during pct...

**mirin_serratus** · 01-07-2012, 05:31 PM

Originally Posted by Times Roman

keeping gains is hard no matter what. if you do not have a sufficient natural foundation, then that tells me that you are not dialed all the way in yet with diet/exercise. There really are no gains without these, and if they are not right, then your cycles will look like rollercoasters...

i'm pretty sure the bigger you are the harder it is to keep all your gains after cycle

**stickyfingers** · 01-07-2012, 06:39 PM

Originally Posted by jimmyinkedup

I was more reffering to your diet post cycle,during pct...

the diet and training stayed the same and i lost all the gains while on that diet

**Whoady** · 01-08-2012, 10:32 AM

So... why do steroids if you lose all your gains? Seems like everyone wants to talk about diet and training but no one wants to admit that genetics will dictate how big you can be.

**Whoady** · 01-08-2012, 10:34 AM

And the only guys walking at 250 are the guys with nuts the size of raisins who cant have kids who never come off.

**ghettoboyd** · 01-08-2012, 11:03 AM

Originally Posted by stickyfingers

the diet and training stayed the same and i lost all the gains while on that diet

maybee thats the problem is that you didnt make any changes to your diet durring and expecialy post cycle...i tend to eat even more protien post cycle and overall calories for that matter to try to maintain gains while i pct...im not saying thats the golden rule but it works for me...

**stickyfingers** · 01-08-2012, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by ghettoboyd

maybee thats the problem is that you didnt make any changes to your diet durring and expecialy post cycle...i tend to eat even more protien post cycle and overall calories for that matter to try to maintain gains while i pct...im not saying thats the golden rule but it works for me...

i do understand what your saying but 3500-3700 cals is still plenty and so is 350g of protein for someome at under 210

**ghettoboyd** · 01-08-2012, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by stickyfingers

i do understand what your saying but 3500-3700 cals is still plenty and so is 350g of protein for someome at under 210

yea i would agree...

**jimmyinkedup** · 01-08-2012, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by Whoady

So... why do steroids if you lose all your gains? Seems like everyone wants to talk about diet and training but no one wants to admit that genetics will dictate how big you can be.

Specifically what genetic factors determine this? I saw you point out a lack of scientific discussion here .. so what specific genetic transcriptions do you feel are responsible for determining this ? Please elaborate.....

**Whoady** · 01-08-2012, 12:55 PM

Well, simply put, steroids are a short term solution to get big or cut or both. The only way to maintain muscle is to cruise. Muscles will slowly atrophy to their previous size and strength will diminish. So I guess I don't see the point of cycling steroids. If anything blasting and cruising seems more effective. At the same time doing so will shut you dosn permanently and it is a big tradeoff.

**gymfu** · 01-08-2012, 01:15 PM

Originally Posted by Whoady

Well, simply put, steroids are a short term solution to get big or cut or both. The only way to maintain muscle is to cruise. Muscles will slowly atrophy to their previous size and strength will diminish. So I guess I don't see the point of cycling steroids. If anything blasting and cruising seems more effective. At the same time doing so will shut you dosn permanently and it is a big tradeoff.

Wrong..........This is almost ALWAYS a problem with the diet. New muscle tissue built while on cycle can be easly maintained while off with proper diet and continuing to train hard.

Now don't mistake new muscle tissue with the swelling of muscles that you get after your gear kicks in. The swelling or full look your muscles get after your gear kicks in is in no way going to stay after you get off but new tissue you build can.

The problem is usually people get on a cycle and the steroids do what they do, your water retension, nutrition intake, nitrogen retension in the muscle cells start to function in overdrive. This gives your muscles this bad ass pumped up, hard, and full look. You CAN'T keep that while off. The key is to be building new muscle tissue after this happens to your body. I see this over and over, both here and with local guys.

AAS is not a short cut if your not training right and eating right then AAS don't do anything for you, except while your on.

OP. If your not keeping any of your gains then lets take a detailed look at your diet both while on and durring PCT. I'm no expert but I would help if you like or better yet go to the nutrition/diet section here.

**Whoady** · 01-08-2012, 01:17 PM

And if most males produce between 50-100 mg of test/week, even cruising at 150 mg/week should give you nice results. At that dose, I would assume that side effects are pretty much non-existent. Correct me if I'm wrong. I would like to know if your body senses a difference if you were to replace your own testosterone with 50-100 mg/ week. Would you lose muscle/maintain/grow? I think I read somewhere that replacing your own testosterone with exogenous test at the same levels you naturally produce will actually decrease muscle mass. I'm not sure where I read it, or if the statement is correct.

**stickyfingers** · 01-08-2012, 02:17 PM

Originally Posted by gymfu

Wrong..........This is almost ALWAYS a problem with the diet. New muscle tissue built while on cycle can be easly maintained while off with proper diet and continuing to train hard.

Now don't mistake new muscle tissue with the swelling of muscles that you get after your gear kicks in. The swelling or full look your muscles get after your gear kicks in is in no way going to stay after you get off but new tissue you build can.

The problem is usually people get on a cycle and the steroids do what they do, your water retension, nutrition intake, nitrogen retension in the muscle cells start to function in overdrive. This gives your muscles this bad ass pumped up, hard, and full look. You CAN'T keep that while off. The key is to be building new muscle tissue after this happens to your body. I see this over and over, both here and with local guys.

AAS is not a short cut if your not training right and eating right then AAS don't do anything for you, except while your on.

OP. If your not keeping any of your gains then lets take a detailed look at your diet both while on and durring PCT. I'm no expert but I would help if you like or better yet go to the nutrition/diet section here.

i never thought my diet was perfect but i thought it was good enough to atleast keep 30% of my gains. could it be possible that i get very bad shutdown on cycle and my body takes longer than normal to get back to natural levels?

**buster12** · 01-08-2012, 02:25 PM

Originally Posted by jandj

buster . what does your pct look like?

hcg 5000iu last 8 weeks of cycle 250iu every 4 days
clomid and nolvadex

If I'm having a heavy cycle then I use nolva 1/2 tab each day last 4 weeks of cycle with the above

**mirin_serratus** · 01-08-2012, 03:13 PM

Originally Posted by Whoady

Well, simply put, steroids are a short term solution to get big or cut or both. The only way to maintain muscle is to cruise. Muscles will slowly atrophy to their previous size and strength will diminish. So I guess I don't see the point of cycling steroids. If anything blasting and cruising seems more effective. At the same time doing so will shut you dosn permanently and it is a big tradeoff.

so much broscience here. if they're at least semi competent and not already huge, they will keep a good portion of their gains for a long long time. if they have sufficient natural test, diet, and training to support it how would they lose all that muscle.

**Whoady** · 01-08-2012, 07:04 PM

Because supposedly testosterone is what gets you big in the first place and if you stop taking the testosterone you will go back to what your natural test can produce. Thats one of thr reasons people lose muscle as they age, because test decreases. So what makes you think that you will keep your gains?

**jimmyinkedup** · 01-08-2012, 09:37 PM

Originally Posted by Whoady

Because supposedly testosterone is what gets you big in the first place and if you stop taking the testosterone you will go back to what your natural test can produce. Thats one of thr reasons people lose muscle as they age, because test decreases. So what makes you think that you will keep your gains?

This isnt entirely true. In fact nbew evidence shows that inactive steroids circulating in the body actually convert to active steroids like test and dht IN THE MUSCLE. This mechanism is completely seperate from the hpta and its test production. Patrick Arnold blogged about this not to long ago. It is believed this is the reason many hypogonadal men who train and eat properly are still able to achieve impressive physiques. Also it would stand to reason the more muscle you have the more efficiently this process would occur. This goes directly against the reasoning in your post.
You can read more here : http://patrickarnoldblog.com/page/2/
April 21 entry
Its not all about testosterone ....

**gymfu** · 01-09-2012, 09:05 PM

Originally Posted by stickyfingers

i never thought my diet was perfect but i thought it was good enough to atleast keep 30% of my gains. could it be possible that i get very bad shutdown on cycle and my body takes longer than normal to get back to natural levels?

Well let's us take a look at it. Have you got any blood work done? Even with your test levels in the toilet you should be able to keep at least some of the gains. Do you think you gained any new muscle tissue or was it all just pumped up?