Keeping gains

[NotConvincedYet]

Alrighty, so I am almost 3 weeks in to my first cycle (sus 250, 2 x week). I now keep reading all these posts regarding the psychology of post cycle when you drop your size, and you don't feel as good because you are not as big.

I have been training 20 years naturally. I know my s...t with both training and nutrition. I have given roids a go because of years of pondering and waiting until I am mentally and physically ready. I have chosen to do a cycle to eliminate this pondering and find out what its all about, but I dont want to do it if I'll lose all my gains. Seems absolutely pointless if that's the case.

So question, considering my food and training is kept spot on with post cycle therapy , is it more likely that I'll lose or keep my gains? If I keep gains, what's the general consensus with how much I keep? Or is this very much an individual thing? Is it possible I could keep say 10lbs of a first cycle?

[Times Roman]

Mate,
A very good question. I will take you at your word that your diet is spot on and that you will continue to hit your routines with intensity even as you pct.
One of the main reasons many that cycle see their gains diminish post cycle is due to they never had their diet in check to begin with. You need to be eating in a fairly high amount of clean calories above your TDEE while cycling and post cycle. Some will take aas, ignore the importance of their diet, and because aas improves protein synthesis (makes your body more effecient with the protein you do eat), they will see more muscle tissue. but the moment they come off, their diet will either stay the same, or subside. and without the aas to maintain the high protein synthesis, the body now becomes less efficient, and is unable to maintain the newly developed muscle tissue.
This is why diet is so critical. If you don't eat, you won't gain.

To point blank answer your question, assuming your diet is spot on, and you have a good natural foundation, and you continue to force yourself to eat post cycle even if you don't feel hungry, and continue to work out with intensity, then I would say you have a fairly good shot at retaining most of your gains.

Let me just add, that it would be very wise to line up your pct gear prior to cycling.

Good luck!
---Roman

[Razor]

Keepping the calories high and training at 80-90% of what you did on cycle as well as proper pct and taking GH helps a lot as well.

[Whoady]

I made a similar thread in which the conclusion was that you will revert back to your natural limit over time. How long? It depends. It really does seem pointless to cycle, IMO, unless you do it to compete or you go on trt. I no longer want to do steroids because I realize that not only will i revert to my natural limit, but because of irreversible damage tothe hpta, I might end up smaller than I was to begin with. No thanks.

[jamesz123]

If you have taken the roids road....well you just have to keep using on and off. That will help you keep most of the gains and make you look better as time goes on (assuming everything is in order and you are not just assuming that the juice is the magic pill).
maybe in like 20 years we will see another something in the market that will be better than steriods and give you more permanent gains, keep us relatively young.
Until than use the stuff with care and do not get carried away cause the gains aint permanent. Unless you are competing or of course.

[NotConvincedYet]

Alrighty, thanks for that feedback. And whoady, I read your thread too, got me thinking.

So... if I get to the end of my cycle, do my pct, and never do a cycle again, will I be worse off than I was before I started because I stuffed around with my normal testosterone levels ? By what it sounds like James is saying, it seems now that I have started, I've killed my chances of maintaining a good level of physique naturally.

I like to think I am using roids to give me a boost (i am not getting any younger!) and to finally see what the fuss is about, but I don't intend to continue use, or kill my natural abilities.

Any thoughts?

[NotConvincedYet]

Alrighty, thanks for that feedback. And whoady, I read your thread too, got me thinking.

So... if I get to the end of my cycle, do my pct, and never do a cycle again, will I be worse off than I was before I started because I stuffed around with my normal testosterone levels ? By what it sounds like James is saying, it seems now that I have started, I've killed my chances of maintaining a good level of physique naturally.

I like to think I am using roids to give me a boost (i am not getting any younger!) and to finally see what the fuss is about, but I don't intend to continue use, or kill my natural abilities.

Any thoughts?

[jandj]

Out of all the cycles I've read and researched the one that you keep most of your Gaines and changes your bodies compression Is deca and test. people will say not to stack your first cycle but if you only plan on doing it once , you are better off . I'm currently on my 6th week if a 200 mg of deca and 500 of sust and I'm super happy with the results . I'm only going to do the deca for 7 weeks and the sust for 10.

[jamesz123]

Alrighty, thanks for that feedback. And whoady, I read your thread too, got me thinking.

So... if I get to the end of my cycle, do my pct, and never do a cycle again, will I be worse off than I was before I started because I stuffed around with my normal testosterone levels ? By what it sounds like James is saying, it seems now that I have started, I've killed my chances of maintaining a good level of physique naturally.

I like to think I am using roids to give me a boost (i am not getting any younger!) and to finally see what the fuss is about, but I don't intend to continue use, or kill my natural abilities.

Any thoughts?

What I am saying is this: If you have reached a high level according to your natural ability (add the fact that you are aging - like all of us) and are now using the juice to push further you should not assum that one or two cycles will take you to another level THAT YOU CAN MAINTIAN just by natural training and eating. Hell you can not even maintian natural level with just training and eating since as you age everything will go down anyway. Your skin, hair, muscle tone, mass etc etc will all change. Juice will give you a boost and than some but to maintain or improve all this you have to cycle on and off for a lot longer than you might think. I am not saying you should drop everything and just focus on juicing but this is not a one or two cycle thing...
Stallon is a good example of body maintianing over the aging years.

[gixxerboy1]

There is so much wrong information in this thread.

You are right you cant hold more then your genetic limit with out roids. 90% of the members arent at their genetic limit and probably still arent after their 1st cycle. I wasnt either when i started.

Damaging your hpta is a guaranteed thing. It can happen. Doesnt mean it will.

It doesnt matter what you take. You dont keep gains better from one drug to another. Some steroids make you hold more water. So when people loose the water after cycle they think they lost their gains. But if you put on 10lbs of muscle you put on 10lbs of muscle. You body doesn't go oh this is from anavar or this is from deca and keep 1 longer then the other.

[NOSUPERMODEL]

I am going to be doing a blast from my TRT dose in a month or two and I was wondering this same thing. Of course I guess I need to first try and search on "how to eat" while on. Right now I take in about 1gram of protein per lb. of bodyweight. So do I up that? I don't want to really add a bunch of carbs because I am not wanting the puffy watery look. Keep fats low, obviously. But after the blast what do I do as far as diet?

[NOSUPERMODEL]

There is so much wrong information in this thread.

You are right you cant hold more then your genetic limit with out roids. 90% of the members arent at their genetic limit and probably still arent after their 1st cycle. I wasnt either when i started.

Damaging your hpta is a guaranteed thing. It can happen. Doesnt mean it will.

It doesnt matter what you take. You dont keep gains better from one drug to another. Some steroids make you hold more water. So when people loose the water after cycle they think they lost their gains. But if you put on 10lbs of muscle you put on 10lbs of muscle. You body doesn't go oh this is from anavar or this is from deca and keep 1 longer then the other.

This is what I quite don't understand. You see people on here all day long saying they put on 15, 20, 25 pounds on cycle. How do they know how much is actually muscle? Do they do caliper testing while on or something?

[gixxerboy1]

This is what I quite don't understand. You see people on here all day long saying they put on 15, 20, 25 pounds on cycle. How do they know how much is actually muscle? Do they do caliper testing while on or something?

checking bf would def help. You cant put on 25lbs of muscle in 12 weeks

[gixxerboy1]

Ill use me for an example. I'm 5'6 before my first cycle i was about 165-170. I can hold about 180-185lbs not on cycle and stay there easily. I'm about 200 now on cycle I'm hoping to get to 205. When i come of. I will loose size. I cant stay at 205 naturally

[Bulkn]

This is what I quite don't understand. You see people on here all day long saying they put on 15, 20, 25 pounds on cycle. How do they know how much is actually muscle? Do they do caliper testing while on or something?

You dont know for certain, just a guess in most cases. Most people that put on alot of weight quickly would be mostly water.

[Densekid]

If your not on point with diet and training you can also loose your natural size gains.
Ive seen people train hard all year, over Xmas take a month off and when the come back to the gym they are way smaller. wasting there time.

[jamesz123]

This is what I quite don't understand. You see people on here all day long saying they put on 15, 20, 25 pounds on cycle. How do they know how much is actually muscle? Do they do caliper testing while on or something?

That is exactly one of the main issues. Even if you know what the fat content is, do you really know how much water you are holding. Probably not. Moreover how slowly or quickly are you getting rid of the WATER (not muscle) after the cycle ends, that is what some mistake as muscle gain and than loss.

[NotConvincedYet]

Re: water weight, I am pretty sure the only way you can measure exact amount of muscle vs fat vs fluid vs bone is by DEXA (dual energy xray absorbantry) These machines cost 100k + haha but you may be able to do it at a medical clininc for 1 or 200 bucks. The only real accurate way for measuring body composition. Hydrostatic weighing is good also, but not sure if it's as accurate as DEXA. Then there's calipers etc... no where near as accurate. Something like a biosignature praactioner may be marginally better.

Thanks James for the feedback. I understand what you are saying. I think there are many variables. Eating, training, age, and PCT being large contributors. And I agree, to stay at a primed level naturally is extremely hard let alone trying to stay at a level which was once enhanced (i.e. post cycle).

Nosupermodel: yep dude, you really need to research the living hell out of food. And not only that, you'll need years of trial and error to see how your body reacts to certain foods. And not only that, your body changes as time goes on, so you'll need to adapt your eating accordingly. It's cliche but man it frustrates me the diet discussion. It's taken me at least 10 years to figure the food equation out specific to my body. Sooo many people on this thread should not go near roids, they just don't understand the depth of food. Dare i say it, is this the reason there's so many varied results and conclusions made as to whether gains could be kept or not???

Daneskid, very good point. If you stop eating and raining, within two to four weeks you lose so much muscle/strength etc. And that's without roids.

Thanks guys, I think I have my answer. It really comes down to where you're at genetically, how in tune with food and training you are. And I tell you what, the more I learn, the more I realise I don't know. And therein lies why this topic is so hotly debated and why there are so many differing results.

I shall continue with this cycle. It's just starting to kick in. And whilst it feels awesome, I know it's not real. Nothing beats the feeling of reaching a natural peak. I am sure after all and said is done, and I see what results I can achieve, and more importantly maintain, I will have a plethora of lessons. Much more than if I sat on the sidelines with an opinion ;0)

Thanks all!

[jamesz123]

Re: ...
Daneskid, very good point. If you stop eating and raining, within two to four weeks you lose so much muscle/strength etc. And that's without roids.

Thanks guys, I think I have my answer. It really comes down to where you're at genetically, how in tune with food and training you are. And I tell you what, the more I learn, the more I realise I don't know. And therein lies why this topic is so hotly debated and why there are so many differing results.

I shall continue with this cycle. It's just starting to kick in. And whilst it feels awesome, I know it's not real. Nothing beats the feeling of reaching a natural peak. I am sure after all and said is done, and I see what results I can achieve, and more importantly maintain, I will have a plethora of lessons. Much more than if I sat on the sidelines with an opinion ;0)

Thanks all!

Oh but it 'real' bro - just as real as anything else - just temporary. Enjoy it while it lasts.

[marcus300]

These tips are for the moderate user and not for the high dose or long term AAS user, these basic methods will help maintain a degree of muscularity while in the off period. If all procedures are carried out during cycle you would of maximise gains and will be carrying new muscle tissue, then you need to focus on the off period and put yourself in an optimal position to keeping your new found gains once the cycle is stopped.

Recovery- One of the areas of focus is the HPTA (Hypothalamus-pituitary-testicular axis), Recovering the HPTA is vital to maintaining gains, typically on a 10-12 week standard AAS cycle will almost certainly cause full suppression/shutdown despite any strategies we might undertake. The natural androgen production needs to be quickly recovered so anabolic hormones are up and running to help maintain the new found muscle. This is why post cycle therapy is vital and the correct protocol's are adhered to. Shorter cycles are becoming increasingly more popular because with these type of cycles there is a significant chance you will have testicular function straight after or very shortly after the cycle as stopped and recovery looks to be alot faster, not in all cases that would depend on compounds used but overall, the shorter the cycle the quicker the recovery.


Once the cycle as stopped we must preserve our gains and if steps haven't been taken during cycle we must now take some steps to reduce estrogen binding in the hypothalamus.You have to look at post cycle estrogen this can be a huge problem for some and this will have a negative impact on recovery of your HPTA just like androgens can and do in this period. The only way to fully recover your HPTA is to completely come off cycle , with this day and age of PCT compounds to recover with, the job will be alot easier. Problems occur if you stayed on cycle for to long or keep taking low suppression drugs to bridge cycles together, all this will have an effect on your HPTA and long term health. Recovery and maintenance of the new found gains are the objects at this stage and stay as healthy as possible, remember suppression and shutdown are linked they both effect your HPTA, so get a decent PCT protocol and recover as fast as possible. The common ancillary drugs what will support the post cycle and the recovery period are clomid ,nolvadex ,a-dex and HCG to name a few. Please check out the PCT section and the stickies for protocols and further advice.

Nutrition - is another area which we must focus on to help maintain the new found gains, after a cycle androgen levels are going to be lower than normal even with the above strategies. We have to maximise the anabolic hormones as much as possible while our system is recovering. First we need to calculate the change in the new calories needed for the new tissue gained during the cycle and support the new tissue, a person who under eats to their requirements will be stripped of the muscle mass very quickly.


Overeating has been shown in numerous studies to maximise these factors. Over maintenance calories are needed to promote the anabolic edge, dietary fat has an influence on androgen secretion, monounsaturated and saturated fat raises testosterone levels but polyunsaturated fat does not so a healthy diet containing O'3 and O'6 will help in this period. Eat clean and feed the new tissue with abundance of calories but always have in mind of muscle building foods and not the sugar rich alternatives we can easily lean to in this period. As testosterone returns to normal and recovery is nearly there, eating over the calories can be lowered to maintenance of the new found muscle what's been gained during the cycle . Never start dieting in the recovery stage it will strip you of your hard earned tissue.

Training - If you have been training intensely during the on period you can help to maintain the new found gains with a slight alteration in the way your training. In some cases further gains have been seen in the recovery part of cycling, this is normally with short cycles and very intense training. If you implement more rest days and make sure your C.N.S gets fully recovered, further gains can be seen. Keep the training sessions down to around 30 mins and incorporate longer rest days in-between. Long workouts lower testosterone to cortisol ratio, so don't go for long workouts no matter how strong or fit you may feel, short and fast will help with recovery without further stress on your system.


Still concentrate on the basic heavy movements this and still focus on HIT type of training, also take more attention on the eccentric part of the lift because this causes most of the muscle fibre damage, after warm up do about 2 sets per bodypart and dropset them, which should consist of eccentric reps start with maximum followed by 90% Max, then 80%max, making sure you take a good 5-6 seconds for the eccentric portion of the reps on all dropsets. There are many other ways of training to help recovery but this method does have great benefits by making the workout shorter and the muscle being hit in a different way. Further gains can be achieved if careful planning is done of your training sessions.


Supplements - Its hard to advice what supplements will help and work for you in the recovery and maintenance period. Clearly a quality protein powder,creatine, test booster's,BCAA's, glutamine and vital vits and supps in the off period does help drastically and all aid recovery, past experience will help to pick which other supps may help and agree with your body.


The more advance you become the more advanced procedure need to be carried out, this is just a basic methods and tips on maintaining post cycle for the moderate user.

[The Bear 79]

Outstanding Marcus! Case closed.

[NotConvincedYet]

Yeah very good marcus. Cheers...

[Revelations]

So how important is it to add HCG to cycle plans? I understand AI's and Serms....But is HCG needed?

[gixxerboy1]

So how important is it to add HCG to cycle plans? I understand AI's and Serms....But is HCG needed?

yes it will help with recovery