Atomini's thread on ESTERS: What they are, how they are formed, and their purpose!

[warmouth]

Man o Man! I am so ready to start homebrewing .....

[christian123]

God a

Has spoken once again! Rly goodpost

[Sworder]

I am not sure any AI has a direct effect on HDL, I think it's a secondary action to e2 becoming low. Feels like this is a misconception that is very common.

[t-dogg]

Great read. Not sure how I missed this.

[Bonaparte]

Oh boy! That makes mewantto jump right into it. What if Caber and an AI were used? While were at it, which AI has the least effect on HDL? I need a new one, as the liquidexisnt cuttingitand my total cholesterol is 391.

Aromasin is the best on lipids. But it is also weaker than the other 2 and it is commonly faked or underdosed. I've bought raw Chinese powder, HG tabs (from India), and research chem forms and have always been disappointed and unsure if it was working much at all :/ This is why I don't even bother with it anymore, since I can't afford the Pfizer brand.

[Atomini]

Yes, for reasons I have not looked into, Aromasin is the easiest on cholesterol values compared to the other two major AIs. I don't know if it is because it may possibly be weaker than Letro, but I was always under the understanding that Aromasin is actually STRONGER than Arimidex and has the ability to lower plood plasma levels of Aromatase to a far greater percentage than Arimidex does.

[John Andrew]

Great post and I follow your advice on tren , I say follow but after 7 years i guess I sort of thought some of it out myself. Its terrific to see you guys explaining with such precision. Why it is not possible for doctors to do the same?

Good work Please keep it up, Kindest regards john

[clarky.]

Great read atomini. It will take a few reads to sink in though lol.

[Squats33]

ESTERS: What they are, how they are formed, and their purpose

The chemistry lesson continues!

I will give a brief explanation on what moles (mol) are in the chemistry world so that you understand what's going on here. The Mole is a unit of measurement in chemistry, where things are so tiny and small and where chemical reactions often take place at a level where using grams doesn't work or doesn't make sense. Now, this may sound like ancient Greek to you, you won't understand this at all, but the proper official defition of mole is this: A mole is the quantity of anything (testosterone, H20, carbon dioxide, cyanide, proteins, hydrogen ions, etc.) that has the same number of particles found in 12.000 grams of pure carbon-12 isotope. Now, this 'quantity' (the number of molecules of whatever we're discussing) is literally the exact same number for everything. And this number is... 6.023 X 10^23 (can also be expressed like this: 0.00000000000000000000006023. This number was originally discovered by the great chemist Amedeo Avogadro. This is also why the number is also known as 'Avogadro's number'. The number of molecules in a mole (known as Avogadro's number) is defined so that the mass of one mole of a substance, expressed in grams, is exactly equal to the substance's mean molecular weight. For example, the mean molecular weight of natural water is about 18.015, so one mole of water is about 18.015 grams. This property considerably simplifies many chemical and physical computations.

So, we want to find out what % of a total mg weight in testosterone propionate is taken up by propionate . As such, we are going to continue using Testosterone Propionate as our example.

Lets find the molar mass of testosterone. Instead of pulling out the periodic table, and adding up the mass of all the carbon atoms, hydrogen atoms, etc. etc. in the testosterone molecule (because that would take too long), I am just going to pull it off wikipedia. Wikipedia tells me the molar mass of bare bones testosterone is: 288.42g/mol. Now, lets grab the molar mass of Propionic Acid: 74.0g/mol. We want the total molar mass of Testosterone Propionate, so we are going to add 288.42 and 74.0 together, which gives us 362.42g/mol as the molar mass of Testosterone Propionate.

So, what now? Well, I originally thought that we would have to convert g/mol into mg/ml but now that i'm right in the middle of doing this, I realize this is not necessary. All I would be doing is an extra complicated step that doesn't really help us find anything out, so we can just skip that. All we need to do is find out the percentage of weight that propionate occupies out of the whole 263.42g/mol, and then we can easily just apply that to any given mg/ml. All I need to do is divide the base weight (288.42 for test) by the ester and the base weight for a percentage. So, lets find this out:

288.42 / 362.42 = 0.795817007

Now lets convert this into a percentage: 0.795817007 X 100 = 80% (rounded off)

So, basically... 80% of the total weight was taken up by testosterone, leaving us with 20% of the molecular weight taken up by propionate. Now, we can easily do this with mg. Lets take a look at 100mg of test prop (you don't even need to do the math for this since it is very simple, but here it is anyways):

0.20 X 100mg = 20mg of propionate

100mg - 20mg = 80mg bare-bones testosterone left over in 100mg of test prop

Lets take a look at Testosterone Enanthate for a change. Testosterone: 288.42g/mol. Enanthic Acid: 130.18g/mol. Testosterone Enanthate : 288.42 + 130.18 = 418.6g/mol.

288.42 / 418.6 = 0.689010989

Convert to percentage: 0.689010989 X 100 = 69% (rounded off)

So, lets take a look at how much bare-bones testosterone you're left with in 500mg of Testosterone Enanthate.

0.69 X 500mg = 345mg testosterone is what you're left with in 500mg of testosterone enanthate

345mg - 500mg = 155mg of enanthate ester is what occupies that 500mg of testosterone enanthate

I hope this has broadened your understanding of what exactly an ester is, how it is formed, and how it affects total mg of substance! Here is some further reading for you on the understanding of ester half lives, and active life: http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...-and-Half-Life

Dude, I took AP chem and I completely understood everything you said. Makes me miss doing titrations and chem lab. Absolutely incredible post. Had to be time consuming. I need to read it all again, but percentage wise there is more test in Prop than E is what I got from this.

[Atomini]

Awesome. Anything I can do to help people around here understand better how all these things work on the smaller levels, the happier I am.

[slimshady01]

Damn solid post Atomini.

In regards to deca and test. Im running the 2 soon and thought about going with 250mg of test and 500-750 deca. I know this is against the norm but ive read logs of others trying it and some loved and had less or no sides. My hairloss would seem to be less this way as well. Im on TRT anyway so not worried about recovery.

any thoughts Atomini?

[Atomini]

Damn solid post Atomini.

In regards to deca and test. Im running the 2 soon and thought about going with 250mg of test and 500-750 deca. I know this is against the norm but ive read logs of others trying it and some loved and had less or no sides. My hairloss would seem to be less this way as well. Im on TRT anyway so not worried about recovery.

any thoughts Atomini?

I think that's pretty solid. I did something similar recently: 100mg/week of Test with 800mg/week of Tren . Sounds like you're doing almost the same, but with Deca.

[slimshady01]

Yeah I'm barley hanging on to my hair as it is, it still covers my whole head but thinner as the years have past. I would shed like on chemo with tren . Only thing I run is test with dht blocker, Anavar , Tbol and deca . When I run deca I stop the dht blocker as its supposedly stops deca from converting to its less potent hair damaging form..

That's another reason for trying the test low and deca high. Since ill be off the dht blocker keeping the test low will help with hairloss.

If I go 250 test cyp or enth " still debating " with 750 deca will .5 eod adex be enough ? Or .25 eod perhaps

[Atomini]

I'm always a fan of running test at TRT and other compounds high, so as to focus on the other compounds being the primary workhorse anabolics of the cycle. Test should just be there to maintain normal bodily function.

You likely won't need any high AI doses with a test dose that small. Deca does convert to estrogen, but its minimal. So 0.25mg ED or EOD (depending on how sensitive you are to estrogen sides) is fine.

[warmouth]

Aromasin is the best on lipids. But it is also weaker than the other 2 and it is commonly faked or underdosed. I've bought raw Chinese powder, HG tabs (from India), and research chem forms and have always been disappointed and unsure if it was working much at all :/ This is why I don't even bother with it anymore, since I can't afford the Pfizer brand.

Crap! Then what do you use? I have a hard time being able to tell, and am always unsure if any AI is actually working or doing what it is supposed to do. I just take it because of what it is supposed to do. I have seriously considered nolva @ 10mgs daily throughout cycle with an AI on hand. Sorry Atomini if this derailed a bit. I just thought Id fish for a quick answer from Bonaparte while he posted this.

[warmouth]

Yes, for reasons I have not looked into, Aromasin is the easiest on cholesterol values compared to the other two major AIs. I don't know if it is because it may possibly be weaker than Letro, but I was always under the understanding that Aromasin is actually STRONGER than Arimidex and has the ability to lower plood plasma levels of Aromatase to a far greater percentage than Arimidex does.

So, is the lowered estrogen good or bad on lipids? My understanding is that when estrogen is high, it can negatively affect lipids. Do I have this backwards?

[Atomini]

Yeah you've got it backwards. Its low estrogen that negatively impacts lipids.

[Honkey_Kong]

Scroll up and take a look at propionic acid again (I cannot attach any more pics to this post - 8 max). Do you see the difference in how many more carbons enanthic acid has? This makes it much larger, and will require much more time for the body to cleave that ester off the testosterone molecule than for propionate. This is why you have vastly different half-life times for steroids bonded with enanthate compared to propionate.

Maybe Bonaparte can clarify this if I'm wrong, but isn't the whole point of the esterification and the different half-life times of the different steroids due to the fat solubility the ester gives the steroid ? You know so that it takes longer for the steroid to leave the oil it's shot with and actually enter the blood stream? I would imagine the difference in time to cleave off the ester would be marginal compared to the time delay caused by changing the water solubility/fat solubility of the hormone.

[warmouth]

Yeah you've got it backwards. Its low estrogen that negatively impacts lipids.

NO WAY! Then maybe I should cut back on the AI. Thank man!

[Misery13]

Thank you again for the information.

[Bonaparte]

Maybe Bonaparte can clarify this if I'm wrong, but isn't the whole point of the esterification and the different half-life times of the different steroids due to the fat solubility the ester gives the steroid? You know so that it takes longer for the steroid to leave the oil it's shot with and actually enter the blood stream? I would imagine the difference in time to cleave off the ester would be marginal compared to the time delay caused by changing the water solubility/fat solubility of the hormone.

While longer esters are more soluble in oil, it is the time it takes for the esterase enzymes to metabolize the ester that primarily determines the release rate.
Sure, the stability and absorption properties of a particular brew (determined by the compound, ester, solvents used, concentration, and carrier) will make some difference in the early stages of the depot's injection, but most of the half/active life is determined by the ester (since this is all that matter once it makes it into the bloodstream).

[Atomini]

You beat me to it. Yup, it is the enzymes and the time required for them to do their job in breaking the bonds, not fat solubility. Anabolic steroids are already very lipophilic (after all, they ARE fats), and the esterification wouldn't change this a whole lot more.

[Honkey_Kong]

That clears up a lot.

[songdog]

Good job Bro!

[slimshady01]

Revised ,


Question about esters. Does kick starting a cycle with a short ester along with a long ester provide gains to hit quicker!?

For example, 600mg a week deca but for first 3 weeks 300mg of npp then stop npp and let the long ester do its job.

[Bonaparte]

Hey guys fast question,

Starting deca Monday or the following and keeping test at 250 what I'm on now. Adding in deca at 600 or 750 since test will stay low not sure yet.

My question is , I have npp and does pinning that along with long estered deca for the first 2 weeks really make it kick in faster??? People seem to think gear like prop and npp get in and out faster but then others say short esters just leave faster but not kick in faster???

Ideas??

Now you're just jacking the thread.

[slimshady01]

My bad figured it went along because there are so many ideas on short esters "kicking in " faster etc.. Seeing that this is about esters I figured it went with the theme.. If not disregard

[Sworder]

Frontload the Deca or use the NPP to kickstart the Nandrolone .