High Estrogen

**ass2grass** · 10-15-2012, 08:04 AM

Hi everyone,

Stats:

Height: 6,2
Weight: 216lbs
BF: 18%
No cycle history

Currently on my first cycle which consists of test prop EOD for 12 weeks. PCT is sorted ( Nolva/Clomid)

I have been running adex at 0.25mg EOD

It is currently the start of my second week and y nipples are really sore. There is no lumps that i can feel either. I have also noticed i have been getting a tad emotional.

I bumped up my adex to 0.25 ED and now to 0.5mg ED. I also have letro/nolva on hand and can get aromasin if absolutely possible. Now I'm really stressing out!! should i sit at this adex dose for at least a week and see if anything changes? or should i get on the letro? any suggestions?

**wannabe_ninja** · 10-15-2012, 08:23 AM

Could be first signs if gyno. Your bf % is kind of high to run test seeing that it will make you more prone to gyno. You could see how the upping of your adex helps or you could stop and start your pct. Come back after you burn off some bf and run it again. Hit up gixxer, austin, swifto, or lunk and the crew. Hell they'll probably be responding shortly anyways.

**Lunk1** · 10-15-2012, 08:26 AM

What dose is your test being run at...by the way, 12 weeks on Prop is a bit long and I would suggest just a short 8 week run. This will also keep side affects to a mimimum!

**Juced_porkchop** · 10-15-2012, 08:28 AM

Originally Posted by ass2grass

Hi everyone,

Stats:

Height: 6,2
Weight: 216lbs
BF: 18%
No cycle history

Currently on my first cycle which consists of test prop EOD for 12 weeks. PCT is sorted ( Nolva/Clomid)

I have been running adex at 0.25mg EOD

It is currently the start of my second week and y nipples are really sore. There is no lumps that i can feel either. I have also noticed i have been getting a tad emotional.

I bumped up my adex to 0.25 ED and now to 0.5mg ED. I also have letro/nolva on hand and can get aromasin if absolutely possible. Now I'm really stressing out!! should i sit at this adex dose for at least a week and see if anything changes? or should i get on the letro? any suggestions?

you should not us AAS with high BF% just a note on that. the more body fat the more conversion to estrogen it seems.

having said that raise to ed for a few weeks and see how you do.
you dont need more then 1 AI.
but IF you use letro, stop the other one, and if you use letro use 0.25-0.6mg eod-e3d for a few weeks before you judge effects. (letro may take 2-3 weeks for fully noticed effect)

what i rec is up dose X2 for what you have now or make it ed, give 2-3 weeks and see. you could add 10mg tamox/nolva for the next week or 2 while the AI takes on its effects from dose increas, but dont rely on just tamox, find the dose where the AI works for you.
Also why testp on first cycle? (or any cycle for that matter)
it needs to be pinned ed-eod and for same gains and effect ast teste. to me unless there is a test involed or a factor like that, I feel there is no use for testp and is just added risk and scar tissue. just my op.

**Juced_porkchop** · 10-15-2012, 08:31 AM

Originally Posted by Lunk1

What dose is your test being run at...by the way, 12 weeks on Prop is a bit long and I would suggest just a short 8 week run. This will also keep side affects to a mimimum!

even teste hits its peek per dose in only days.
I dont agree with shorter cycle, other then lessening the amount of pining you would have needed, I find cycles lass then 12-14 weeks a bit of a waste myself. (orals excluded) regardless of ester.

just my op. I do think testp on first cycle was a bad choice. not sure what would have drove him to pick it.

**ass2grass** · 10-15-2012, 08:37 AM

Originally Posted by Lunk1

What dose is your test being run at...by the way, 12 weeks on Prop is a bit long and I would suggest just a short 8 week run. This will also keep side affects to a mimimum!

Im running prop at 140mg EOD

**ass2grass** · 10-15-2012, 08:40 AM

Originally Posted by Juced_porkchop

you should not us AAS with high BF% just a note on that. the more body fat the more conversion to estrogen it seems.

having said that raise to ed for a few weeks and see how you do.
you dont need more then 1 AI.
but IF you use letro, stop the other one, and if you use letro use 0.25-0.6mg eod-e3d for a few weeks before you judge effects. (letro may take 2-3 weeks for fully noticed effect)

what i rec is up dose X2 for what you have now or make it ed, give 2-3 weeks and see. you could add 10mg tamox/nolva for the next week or 2 while the AI takes on its effects from dose increas, but dont rely on just tamox, find the dose where the AI works for you.
Also why testp on first cycle? (or any cycle for that matter)
it needs to be pinned ed-eod and for same gains and effect ast teste. to me unless there is a test involed or a factor like that, I feel there is no use for testp and is just added risk and scar tissue. just my op.

prop appealed to me as it appeared to have less bloat than a longer estered test like eanthat or cyp. Also it would kick in faster. I don't mind pinning EOD. Is there any issue with taking adex and nolva simultaneously?

**kelkel** · 10-15-2012, 08:42 AM

As well as the above advice you might consider reducing your amount of prop slightly until you get things under control. Maybe 100mg.

kel

**ass2grass** · 10-15-2012, 08:47 AM

Yes i think that is a wise idea Kelkel, I'd rather be safe than sorry. I just couldn't believe i got the sides so fast especially when dosing an AI from the start of the cycle.

**kelkel** · 10-15-2012, 09:01 AM

Agreed. I'd also have nolva on hand at all times, IMHO.

**magic32** · 10-15-2012, 09:03 AM

Prevailing wisdom here will be conflicting, because there are actually a few avenues you can take.

Some background info is in order. Adex is a mild AI that's best relegated to prevention (as you've been using it), and although some guys do benefit from early gyno symptom reversal with Adex...don't bet your farm on this. Thus your first option is to ride out another week at the higher dosage since your symptoms are slight, hope to fall into that slim success category, and if not try a more potent therapy.

Letro is significantly stronger than Adex (suppress a higher percentage of estrogen) and thereby far more aggressively works towards not only early symptom gyno reversal, but has been clinically proven in numerous studies (which can be found at the National Center for Biotechnology on PubMed.com) to reverse gyno by starving both its fatty tissue and more advanced nodules of the necessarily nourishing/sustaining estrogen. Thus option number two is dump the lightweight AI now, and start administering the heavyweight.

Option #3, contrary to popular belief is not Arimidex , which should only be used if it's all that's on hand and/or depending on your preference, until a genuine therapy drug can be acquired. Conversely, where the prior two therapies have failed, Tamoxifen (the overall preferred clinical treatment) should be enlisted. Although it's been shown to hinder cycle results, you're essentially selecting the lesser of two evils, i.e. He who uses Nolva and runs today, lives to cycle another day.

Lastly, for more severe cases, when all three of the above meet with unsuccessful or unsatisfactory results, medical journal literatures dictates combining Nolva and Letro in either a simultaneous (together), or sequential approach - intermittent administration of several weeks of each therapy back to back. This protocol has proven most successful for difficult cases.

The caveats for gyno treatment include:

1) Give proven therapies enough time to work. Too many sufferers expect near immediate results, when the medical literature uses studies of 3, 6, and 9 months of therapy for full reversal; and

2) Always, always, always, continue therapy at least two weeks after symptom resolution. Often the tendency is to consider oneself cured prior to dissolving the entire mass. Personally, I'd recommend running the treatment dosage for two additional weeks, followed by a lower half dose for another two, totaling a month of post-symptom therapy.

Obviously due to the depth of the response, this was written for the benefit of other (more severe) gyno suffers as well.

Best to you

**ass2grass** · 10-15-2012, 09:04 AM

so im ok to take nolva and adex until sides subside?

**magic32** · 10-15-2012, 09:07 AM

Reducing the test dosage is ineffectual because the conversion rate is not dose-dependent.

Short cycles with short ester compounds are highly beneficial and used by many; it's more a matter of preference.

**Lunk1** · 10-15-2012, 09:17 AM

Originally Posted by Juced_porkchop

even teste hits its peek per dose in only days.
I dont agree with shorter cycle, other then lessening the amount of pining you would have needed, I find cycles lass then 12-14 weeks a bit of a waste myself. (orals excluded) regardless of ester.

just my op. I do think testp on first cycle was a bad choice. not sure what would have drove him to pick it.

Yes peek levels are reached in days with either ester but most (including me from my personal experience) would agree that it takes less time to feel the affects of prop vs E. I believe the mor frequent injections cause the blood levels to stabalize sooner and the affects to begin sooner beacuase of this.

I think long and short estered cycles have their place. Depends on ones goals and time constraints.

**kelkel** · 10-15-2012, 09:20 AM

Straighten me on that one if you would Magic. You're saying taking 400 per week hypothetically would be the same conversion rate as 1000 per week then?

**steroid.com 1** · 10-15-2012, 04:07 PM

Originally Posted by kelkel

Straighten me on that one if you would Magic. You're saying taking 400 per week hypothetically would be the same conversion rate as 1000 per week then?

Same question Magic...

E follows T; we all know that.

Levels of aromatase enzymes are different for all men so we all convert differently.

That said; increases in Testosterone serum levels will/may increase aromatization rates increasing E2 and thereby presenting the subsequent neg side effects.

Love to hear your thoughts my friend.

gd

**ass2grass** · 10-15-2012, 04:10 PM

ok magic, if i dump adex today and start administering letro immediately will i leave my self unprotected while the letro is building? Also what dose of letro do you feel is best for my situation?

**Atomini** · 10-15-2012, 07:12 PM

Originally Posted by kelkel

Straighten me on that one if you would Magic. You're saying taking 400 per week hypothetically would be the same conversion rate as 1000 per week then?

This is, for the most part, correct. The fact is that the body can only have so much aromatase circulating within it at any given time. Levels might increase in response to different things, but it should more or less be the same. As a result, the aromatization rate of Testosterone into Estrogen should be the same. Might aromatase production increase slightly as a response to supraphysiological levels of Testosterone ? Yes. But not enough to have a massive increase in rate of aromatization. The other thing as mentioned by a few here already is of course the fact that everyone's body reacts differently in this regard. Some may have more aromatase activity and others may have close to zero, even at 5,000mg/week of an aromatizable androgen.

**ass2grass** · 10-16-2012, 04:41 AM

Thanks everybody for giving me a hand with my situation. I just have one more query, can i seamlessly start taking letro and stop the adex? or will this leave me open for estrogen rebound while the letro kicks in?