Toremifene Citrate

[Veritatis]

Would love some feedback/edits from the wiser guys on here


First of all, after spending a few hours reading studies and reviews for Tamoxifen , Clomiphene, and Toremifene; Toremifene is now the only SERM I will ever recommend. For it definitely seems to be the most effective and safest overall... A few reasons being: it lowers ldl, increases hdl, improves bone mineral density, can lower prolactin, great at ER binding in breast tissue (seems to be just as good as Nolva, not as good as Ralox though), no progesterone receptor sensitivity issues like with Nolva ie you can use it with Deca and Tren (19-nors ect), it increases pituitary sensitivity to GnRH just like Tamox ie more LH over time (side note: Clomid seems to decrease sensitivity), it’s the easiest on the liver, you get none of the emotional sides or possible optical disturbances like Clomid, and it seems to be amazing at rebooting HPTA ect ect... Personally, I feel like you get all the benefits of Clomid and Nolva with far less of the negative, but as always, to each their own.

Edit: there was a study done by some Greek researchers showing that Tamox was slightly better than Torem at increasing testosterone and LH, which would indicate that it was better at restoring HPTA. Though, the Torem dosage was lower than most use. (The study used 20 mg of Tamoxifen and 60 mg of Toremifene. Where most would use something like: 120/90/60/30 for Toremifene.) Regardless, the results for 4 weeks of use were still pretty comparable ([1] Tamox - FSH: 8.23+/-2.71 LH: 7.65+/-3.37 T: 740.27+/-227.98 || Torem - FSH: 8.15+/-4.59 LH: 6.62+/-2.99 T: 696.13+/-202.21.) Also, I wanted to note that I am unsure if Torem leads to a direct increase in the amplitude of LH release like with Clomid. Though over a extend period of time this mechanism does lead to LHRH insensitivity and a decrease LH.

Regardless, overall Torem seems to be very effective at rebooting HPTA, and is much safer. Plus, most users seem to feel like Torem kicks in a lot sooner, thus helping you recover faster. Though, one downside is it does increase SHBG, which could lower circulating testosterone after extended use. Even so, I still feel like Toremifien is the best overall candidate for PCT.



Now in terms of enzyme activity and the following SERMs:

Tamoxifen- requires both CYP2D6 and CYP3A4 to convert to its metabolites, such as 4-hydroxytamoxifen and N-desmethyl-4-hydroxytamoxifen. Without these metabolite there would be significantly less ER binding, leading to a substantial decrease in function. The enzyme CYP2D6 is inhibited by most SSRI. Also, many compete for binding, and anti depressants seem to be able to bind more readily then Tamoxifen. So, in general anti depressants should be avoided when using Tamoxifen. In addition, the enzyme CYP3A4 is inhibited by things such as piperine, milk thistle, and quercetin (this initially inhibits, but later induces expression. Either way it should be avoided). These are found in a vast variety of supplements currently available on the market, all of which you should stay away from when consuming Tamox.


Toremifene- only seems to require CYP3A4, not CYP2D6, to convert to it’s primarily metabolite: N-demethyltoremifene. Again, without this metabolite the SERM would be left more or less essentially ineffective. You are looking at around a 30-100x decrease in effectiveness. Thus, again you should avoid bioperine, milk thistle, and quercetin or anything else that affects CYP3A4. Though, since Torem doesn’t use CYP2D6 most anti depressants seem to be okay. For example: Cymbalta, Prozac, Paxil, Wellbutrin, Zoloft ect


Clomiphene- The conversion of its metabolites depends on both CYP2D6 and CYP3A4 to produce 4-hydroxy-N-desethylclomiphene, 4-OH-DE-Clom, 4-hydroxyclomiphene ect. So, again you should avoid anti depressants, bioperine, milk thistle, and quercetin.



So, in conclusion stay away from bioperine, milk thistle, quercetin and even grapefruit juice with any of the above SERMs. (Grapefruit juice inhibits P450 enzyme activity, which may allow for greater initial build up/concentrations of the above SERMs, but in the long run using grapefruit juice will make them less effective and should thus be avoided.) Also, I want to note there are most likely other P450 enzymes involved ect. I am just trying to add the point that in addition to having the least side effects, Toremifene also seems to be the only SERM that can be safely taken with most anti depressants and seems to have the least overall drug interactions. Though, always verify drug interactions and consult a doctor before taking anything.


In addition here is a list of a few regularly used products that you may want to avoided when taking the above SERMs: MyoTEST, Zeus, TestoPRO, original BioForge, PCT Assist, N1-T, Triazole, Stoked, Recycle ect you get the idea just check the ingredient list

Edit: I have come across some contradicting studies with milk thistle and CYP3A4. Some claim a 50-100% decrease in activity. Others say most products don't provide a significant amount of extract to have an effect on CYP3A4. Stating, [2] "Silybin concentrations after intake of milk thistle are too low to significantly affect the function of CYP3A4." Though, I do believe that any effective Milk of Thistle product on the market will have an impact on CYP3A4 activity, and thus your SERM.

Additional edit: I want to note that in the second half of this post I am claiming that the intake of various products on the market could lead to a possible interaction with how efficient many SERMs work. I believe this interaction is dependent on many variables, and to what degree it occurs will vary significantly based on a lot of factors. Though, I am in no way claiming that addition PCT products like: AI's, Test boosters, Liver/Organ support, and antioxidant products ect, should not be used with SERMs or during PCT. I just generally feel that if alternative products that don't inhibit enzyme activity are present on the market, they should be utilized as a first choice. I also want to note that everything I have written has been based on what I have personally concluded from reading various publications, posts and speaking with a few company representatives; whether or not you chose to agree is your choice.

[1] Fertil Steril. 2009 Apr;91(4 Suppl):1427-30
[2] van Erp NP, Baker SD, Zhao M, et al.: Effect of milk thistle (Silybum marianum) on the pharmacokinetics of irinotecan. Clin Cancer Res 11 (21): ***0-6, 2005.

*If you would like to see additional references or studies, please let me know.

[MickeyKnox]

Welcome and thank you for this article.

The arrangement of this post leads me to believe this to be an entire cut and paste including the authors thoughts and comments. Are these your original thoughts and comments? (im not referring to the studies) It's fine if they are not. But make sure that you identify that so as not to claim someone else thoughts, ideas, or comments.

I believe i have seen this entire article (cut and paste) before on a other website.

[alexISthrowed]

Isn't the article cited at the bottom? Been out of school for a while but I believe it's cited. I've seen this article. Pubmed has some good reads on toremifene. Definitely the only serm I recommend other than tamoxifen . Clomid is old school but people still swear by it.

[MickeyKnox]

Isn't the article cited at the bottom? Been out of school for a while but I believe it's cited. I've seen this article. Pubmed has some good reads on toremifene. Definitely the only serm I recommend other than tamoxifen. Clomid is old school but people still swear by it.

I see it now - last two lines. Thanks Alex.

[pjliftsalot]

I see it now - last two lines. Thanks Alex.

Those re just study references referred to in the article. You are 100% correct - no credit has been given to the author at all.

[alexISthrowed]

I see it now - last two lines. Thanks Alex.

Lol I wasn't too sure, haven't had to cite something since high school and I never did it right then.

[alexISthrowed]

Those re just study references referred to in the article. You are 100% correct - no credit has been given to the author at all.

Ok that makes sense. My point was it doesn't appear that he's trying to take credit for the article. I couldn't properly cite the article if I tried. Plus if he copy pasted it from another forum the author may not have been mentioned.

[MickeyKnox]

Those re just study references referred to in the article. You are 100% correct - no credit has been given to the author at all.

Thats what i was originally referring to. I believe the entire post is a cut and paste. I had to re read it to make sure.

IOW's, i believe the the comments included are NOT entirely the OP's, if any at all..

[Veritatis]

Those re just study references referred to in the article. You are 100% correct - no credit has been given to the author at all.

Thats what i was originally referring to. I believe the entire post is a cut and paste. I had to re read it to make sure.

IOW's, i believe the the comments included are NOT entirely the OP's, if any at all..

Spent like 10 hrs working on that... did not copy paste from anyone or anything... wikipedia, reasearch studies, a article on ergo ect is where i got about 80% of the info... if you would like further references let me know, got about 30 of them, just didn't want to cite them all since i am not publishing this anywhere ie why i only cited the ones i took direct quotes or data from... I originally started writing a reply to a post in regards to bioperine effects on CYP3A4 and tamox for someone thinking about using triazole with it, which turned into me spending a few hrs reading about serms, deciding i love torem and thus writing that to reply to the post, which is why the arrangement may be a lil messed up

if you go here: anabolic mind /forum/supplements/213825-erase-triazole-both-2.html

you can see 2 different versions of the write up quoted as I was working on it/editing it... there were a bunch of others, but yea I dont have them

[MickeyKnox]

....

[jimmyinkedup]

I think torem has a ton of potential. Unfortunately for now we are left with dose dependent speculation that it is more effective than evn tamoxifen alone.

[Veritatis]

But, regardless I posted here to get some feedback/ a bit more info or thoughts anyone else has, because I know there are some guys on here who really know there SERMs ect

[Veritatis]

I think torem has a ton of potential. Unfortunately for now we are left with dose dependent speculation that it is more effective than evn tamoxifen alone.

Each serm still seems to effect everyone differently, but I feel like when you look at the potential side effects ect and how most torem users have responded to it. It really does seem like one of the best options