Panntastic guide and insight into PIP

[panntastic]

--Post injection pain or P.I.P for short

There’s lots of speculation regarding how and why pip occurs. What I have done here is compile a general knowledge of some of the myths and expel these for members.
There is a lot of “bro science” regarding P.I.P and hopefully if this thread can help educate at least one person then it has served some purpose.

What is P.I.P?
P.I.P is what it says on the tin.
Post injection pain.
It can be instant (sometimes the case with aqueous suspensions) or it can have a delayed onset.
Out of PERSONAL experience pip normally occurs anything from 4 hours after and can last for several days.

In my eyes there are different types of P.I.P and the different factors depend on the length and severity of the pain.

Possible cause 1:
POOR INJECTION TECHNIQUE
To me this category has several causes of P.I.P and I will try to go into detail on them all.
• Hygiene to every AAS user this should be paramount!
Clean injection site is a must. God knows what bacteria will get into the open wound if the area around the site is filthy.

• Wipe the vial
By this I mean use an alcohol wipe to wipe any dirt that may of accumulated on the butyl stopper.
This not only keeps the outer stopper clean but stops any bacteria getting in when you draw from the vial.

• Use 2 needles (1 to draw from vial 1 to inject)
Needles are free in some countries and dirt cheap in those where they aren’t.
There is no need to be injecting with a blunt and potentially contaminated needle when for next to nothing you can use a sealed sterile needle every time.
I advise if you don’t already do this practice to start doing so.

• Choose the correct needle for the site
I see this too often on the board, people complaining of a large egg shaped lump on the glute several days after injection.
At first everybody points the finger to high BA% UGL gear.
Sometimes this may be true but all areas need to be looked into before blaming the gear.
If your body fat percentage is not low (15% or less) using a 1” needle isn’t going to get the oil sat deep enough within the muscle.
This in turn will leave the oil sat in the top of the muscle.
When the oil is in the top of the muscle it stretching the fascia of that muscle and gives the golf ball look that people often complain about.

• Keep a steady hand and inject slowly
Once the needle is in the muscle you need to keep it as steady as possible and I can’t emphasise this enough!
If you drag a needle across your skin with even the smallest amount or pressure, it will break the skin as it’s a razor sharp medical instrument.
Now imagine what that’s doing to your tiny muscle fibres deep inside a muscle.
With your unsteady hand you’re essentially chopping and hacking away from the inside of the muscle.
Couple this with throwing some oil on a fresh wound and you may have yourself an abscess.
If you’re lucky and ugl sterilise their gear it will be easily treatable.
But if it’s not sterile oil and there’s a whole host of bacteria in the vial you have a big problem on your hands!
Taking time to inject is another way to try and prevent P.I.P
The slower the oil enters the muscle the more time it has to disperse itself and not gather in the same spot causing knotting.

Possible cause 2:
SOLVENT CONTENT
Now standard oil based AAS has a solvent (Benzyl Alcohol) and a co-solvent (Benzyl Benzoate)

Basic Information on Commonly-used Solvents:

Benzyl Alcohol (BA):
A fairly potent solvent, whose main function for our purposes is keeping a solution bacteriostatic. It's presence as low as 0.9% is enough to prevent practically all microbial growth in solution.

Benzyl Benzoate (BB):
A co-solvent that serves several functions: helps dissolve the hormone, helps keep it in solution in depot (injection site), and thins the gear so it is easy to draw and inject.

Out of the 2 of these only Benzyl alcohol has the ability to cause pip.
I have personally injected a small amount of BA (in the name of science) and it hurt like crazy compared to zero pain when injecting BB only.

Most UGL’s often use too much BA in their brews to ensure the stability of the product ensuring it doesn’t crash. The problem with this is the uncomfortable pain cause by large percentages of BA.

I can personally use products with up to 6-7% BA and not feel any discomfort. But and it’s a very big BUT everyone is different and everyone’s tolerances to pain is different.


Possible Cause 3
VIRGIN MUSCLE
Every single one of us has had to of experienced this as we all administer our AAS via I.M injection.

A Virgin muscle will feel uncomfortable the first few times after pinning due to the muscle fascia stretching for the first time via I.M administration.

This to me does not feel the same as high BA content or improper injection technique.
Both of the above as some have described a burning type feel whereas virgin muscle to me feels like a deep throbbing feeling and very distinguishable from the others.

There are other possible causes of P.I.P but I feel the above are the main reasons for it.

This part needs to be read and understood.
If you are experiencing P.I.P keep your eye on it as it can turn serious.
Sometimes it’s just a small amount of discomfort that’s ok.
Other times it establishes itself as a small lump at the injection site that can grow by the hour.
If the lump starts to turn red and warm to the touch then were starting to worry a little.
If it’s very warm it’s time to go see a doc just to make sure you haven’t got a sterile abscess.

If Proper injection technique is followed and we keep everything sterile and clean pip should be at the back of our minds.

High MG/ML gear
As we all know and have seen on the board there are more and more questions regarding high mg/ml gear and high dosed blends of gear.
There is a theory flying around that high dosed gear is a massive cause of pain. There is some truth to this but it’s the reason behind this Bro Science gym myth I’m personally not comfortable with.
The theory is that only so much can be absorbed by the muscle and that’s the reason why the amount of BA in the vial is there, to perfectly fit with the absorption of the test into the muscle once injected.
Benzyl alcohol is very soluble in water and as our body is between 40% - 60% water it’s absorbed very quickly once inside the muscle.

But the BA is normally used for antimicrobial uses not as the sole Solvent in the solution this is why I feel that whoever made this myth up overlooked the BB in the solution and its job of keeping the solution stable.

Here is my example of the bro science and why I feel it’s flawed.
Vial A ---------------------- Vial B
Test E 250mg/ml---------- Test E 500mg/ml
2% BA ---------------------- 2% BA
20% BB -------------------- 20% BB

These are normally the contents found on the labels of UGl gear
Vial A will be stable and pain free to shoot.
Vial B in all my experience brewing just won’t hold and will more than likely crash sometime after being made.
This is not what the UGL wants as they can’t sell a vial of crashed gear.
So they add more solvent.
In this case it’s BA.
You need to remember these people aren’t brewing 10-100ml like you or I would. They have big vats of maybe 10litres and above! So to them adding 100ml of BA seems like a small amount of fluid but the end product were looking at around 8-9% BA and that’s painful!

So with the added BA in the brew being possibly 3-4 times higher than the original 2% and the MG of the test e only being double the original dosage there should according to the myth be enough BA for the absorption of the extra test in the solution.
Whereas in reality it’s just the sheer amount of BA that’s causing the pain.

BRO SCIENCE MYTH 2
PIP is the body rejecting the test!!!!!
Yes I have heard this crap in local gyms numerous times and it grips my SH1T big time!!!
I don’t need to write anything on this as it’s just so preposterous and whoever came up with it needs a slap.

MYTH 3
Warming gear stops PIP
This is not true warming the gear can only make it slightly more viscous and easier to pin but this has nothing to do with post injection pain.

If anybody can prove me wrong on this I am open to any literature that proves this theory correct and I will be the first person to hold my hand up and say I was wrong.

The only logical sense I can see behind this theory is that when the vial is placed in warm water for a period of time the solution becomes warm and thoroughly mixed as all the elements in the vial (oil, BA, BB, Hormone) are heated up together ensuring a complete solution.
But I still can’t see how this will stop pip from happening.
Because if pip is caused from improper injection technique or high solvent content, warming the solution is doing nothing to remove either of these variables from the equation.

This is my own personal insight into Post Injection Pain
If you have any theories of your own please feel free to add them and hope we can all learn from each other.

Stay safe and educate before you medicate
Panntastic

[AD]

Very nice. Well done.

[Lunk1]

Very well explained Pan! Thank you!!!

[marcus300]

Nice thread but I would like to give some input -Ive been injecting along time and I can say FOR ME warming the oil up before injection helps with PIP. I don't care if there aren't any studies or logic in it but I know it helps a lot with me. Lets forget about the cycles I do and go with my TRT which is Nebido a 4ml injection all at once for an example if I don't warm it up over a kettle before injecting I get PIP if I do warm it up I don't get any. My injection protocol is the same and I am very aware of the procedure but I can tell a difference if I warm it up. Take that as you may just giving some feedback from someone who's done many injections and from what ive seen with myself.

Great thread Panntastic keep up the good work

[bigsiv]

Great read Panntastic for everyone not just newbies

[dannypefc1878]

That's an excellent evidence based account and I agree with all points. Injecting is a science in itself which is why clinicians are carefully trained how to do them. When people attempt to self inject without experience or training they run the risk of encountering problems as you have mentioned. To simplify, I believe that if your going to jab your self with a sharp needle you have to accept that it may hurt. The more skill and experience you acquire will decrease this risk especially if you follow the correct injecting protocols. Remember though Reb experienced professionals make errors so for any steroid user newbie or experienced there will be some element I pain risk. MORE IMPORTANT than pain risk is infection risk which must be kept at a minimum as it can cause problems

[panntastic]

Nice thread but I would like to give some input -Ive been injecting along time and I can say FOR ME warming the oil up before injection helps with PIP. I don't care if there aren't any studies or logic in it but I know it helps a lot with me. Lets forget about the cycles I do and go with my TRT which is Nebido a 4ml injection all at once for an example if I don't warm it up over a kettle before injecting I get PIP if I do warm it up I don't get any. My injection protocol is the same and I am very aware of the procedure but I can tell a difference if I warm it up. Take that as you may just giving some feedback from someone who's done many injections and from what ive seen with myself.

Great thread Panntastic keep up the good work

Thank you for the input Marcus
Do you think that with the nebido it's a volume thing and warming it up helps the very very thick castor oil more viscous allowing it to seep into the fibres better?
Your nebido is 250mg/ml is that correct?

[jimmyinkedup]

Nice post. Thanks for taking the time to write and share this Pann.

[Sgt. Hartman]

Nice post bud, thanks.

[marcus300]

Thank you for the input Marcus
Do you think that with the nebido it's a volume thing and warming it up helps the very very thick castor oil more viscous allowing it to seep into the fibres better?
Your nebido is 250mg/ml is that correct?

I gave that as an example because I use that all the time but its the same with my cycles, not sure what it is but I can tell a difference.

[Bonaparte]

Warming an oil makes it LESS viscous.

[panntastic]

I gave that as an example because I use that all the time but its the same with my cycles, not sure what it is but I can tell a difference.

It's definitely an area I intend to do a lot more research in

[jasc]

Nice post Pann.

I'll be linking this one.

[panntastic]

Warming an oil makes it LESS viscous.

Sorry B that is what I meant

[marcus300]

It's definitely an area I intend to do a lot more research in

Yes please do I would be interested in seeing if you come up with anything. Its not just a recent thing its been like this for years. Making the consistency thinner does something for me for sure.

[warmouth]

Awesome post! I still get pip from prop and this helps explain why. I will say that the higher dosed gear hurts me real bad. The oil is a lot thicker, which might be the problem, not the mg of gear itself. I tried some test C 350 once from a different lab than I'm used too and it took forever to pull up and pin. Like I said, the pip could very well have came from the density of the oil and not the compound itself. Great read Pan...

[panntastic]

Yes please do I would be interested in seeing if you come up with anything. Its not just a recent thing its been like this for years. Making the consistency thinner does something for me for sure.

I can't find anything definite on the subject of warming AAS prior to IM administration I have however found a very interesting study on how the viscosity of certain vegetable oils along with fatty acids changes at certain temperatures.

If anyone would like to read the study it can be found here:
http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/vi...g_biomaterials

However like Marcus there are a multitude of people who swear by this practice of warming the solution for pain free administration.

I believe there may be a grain of truth behind this but I cannot find it in an official study.

It only leads me to surmise that it is something to do with either the Benzyl alcohol, Benzyl benzoate or the raw hormone acting differently when warmed or a combination of the 3 becoming completely homogenous at a certain temperature.

I'm only drawn to this conclusion because if a vial of AAS crashes out of solution we advise the person to warm it up to re enter a solution.

Maybe I'm thinking out of the box here and it is only my thoughts and don't advise anyone to follow the advice I'm about to write out.

But the whole idea of heating the vial to reduce pip is leading me to think that possibly AAS should either:
A; be stored at a warmer temperature
B; left at room temp as a minimum and warmed up prior to administration to ensure a homogenous solution.
(Kind of like shaking a winny suspension prior to use to try ensure even amount of suspension is drawn for accurate dosage)

Like I said this is me thinking outside the box and its completely hypothetical but I want to cover all bases on a subject not widely discussed.

Please guys share your comments and thoughts on this as I feel we could be on to something and hopefully maybe able to control pip and explain much better for future users

[diesel101]

Great Job Bro!

[panntastic]

Great Job Bro!

Thanks buddy it's been something I've been meaning to do for a long time I just didn't have the time

[clarky.]

Great post pann

[panntastic]

Ok I've been doing some research again into the much heated topic of
Does warming the oil stop pip?

Please read and share your thoughts on what I believe may be the reason as why some people find PIP is reduced once the solution is warmed.

Note:
If you do warm your oil do it safely
Never warm the oil that is preloaded into a syringe under a tap this is unsanitary to start with.
I advise either warming a pan of oil and allowing the vial sit in the pan to thoroughly warm up
Or
Use a hair dryer to warm the vial up

Never use a microwave


My theory is this:
Pip seems to come from hormones with a much higher melting point
Prop
Tren ace
Winny
Test base
All the hormones we know and associate pip with have an extremely high melting point.
Much higher than room temp

These are also the compounds that seem to be more susceptible to crashing in vial.

I now think that as they are being held in a solution at room temp by the solvent and co solvent, they are possibly in a semi crashed state not visible to the eye.

Warming would then turn the crashed hormone back into a stable solution.

Crazy idea I know but unless there is excess BA In the vial test e never hurts but as test cyp has a much much higher melting point and is more susceptible to crashing even at 250mg/ml people still get pip from it.

Melting points:
All painless hormones
Eq- Liquid at room temp
Deca - 30-35°C
Test e - 32-36°C
(Note the low melting points)

Known pip inducing hormones and their melting point:
Winstrol - 155°C
Test Prop - 118-122°C
Test base - 154-155°C
All of these have extremely high melting points possibly giving my theory some backing or it could be a coincidence.

Now sustanon is a culprit for pip and I think this is due to its shorter esters and their respective melting points:
30 mg test propionate
118-122°C
60 mg test phenylpropionate
115-116°C
60 mg test isocaproate
53-55°C
100 mg test decanoate
47-49°C
(Based on Organon Sust 250mg ingredients)
As you can see the prop and phenylprop have higher melting points than the other 2 esters in the compound.

My other train of thought on this is the ugl etc aren't allowing the hormone to be completely blended with the oil and its co solvents whilst brewing.
Allowing the whole blend of oil solvent and co solvent to get to the temp of the hormone melting point allowing a thorough and therefore stable mix.

Let me know what you think on this crazy theory of mine.

[MickeyKnox]

Paaaaaantastic!

Fantastic read! Thanks bro!

Ive added this to my Link Library.

[panntastic]

Paaaaaantastic!

Fantastic read! Thanks bro!

Ive added this to my Link Library.

Cheers Mick
If you have anything to add please throw it up here for everyone to see

[lovbyts]

You missed one couse of PIP
Some people are just PVSSY'S!!! and cant deal with a little pain.

[panntastic]

You missed one couse of PIP
Some people are just PVSSY'S!!! and cant deal with a little pain.

Well now you have mentioned it buck up pvssys

[lovbyts]

Only time I had PIP was back in the day (80s) when all they used was 16G 2in Vet needles. All it took was 1x for me to say NO way.... lol

[panntastic]

Only time I had PIP was back in the day (80s) when all they used was 16G 2in Vet needles. All it took was 1x for me to say NO way.... lol

Never once had pip off home brew which leaves me to believe its just not made correctly
Or
In the interests of large business's time = money and its not left to brew long enough

[lovbyts]

Never once had pip off home brew which leaves me to believe its just not made correctly
Or
In the interests of large business's time = money and its not left to brew long enough

Well in this case it was from the harpoon and not the gear. 16g is BIG.

[panntastic]

Well in this case it was from the harpoon and not the gear. 16g is BIG.

Similar to a turkey baster I should imagine

[Lunk1]

Pan....sent you a PM but I will reply here as well!

I totally disagree with thre theory that warming gear decreases or will allow anyone to avoid PIP!

My argument is this! If the solution need heated to a higher degree because it was in a semi-crashed state then warming it to a temp high enough to make the solution stable should really only need to happen once correct?

Most ppl warm gear with warm tap water but even for those heating in a pan with warm water...I argue that by the time the injection actually occurs that the temp has stabalized back to near room temp..even if that's not the case the oil will stabalize to body temp of 98.6 degrees after injected into the muscle and sitting in the depot!

The last part of my argument is that if PIP is do to a problem with the gear not being 100% stable or anything else you mentioned in your theory, then why does PIP often times go away after a short time of use even using the same gear? If your theory was true then one should experience the same PIP with each injection!

[Tron3219]

The last part of my argument is that if PIP is do to a problem with the gear not being 100% stable or anything else you mentioned in your theory, then why does PIP often times go away after a short time of use even using the same gear? If your theory was true then one should experience the same PIP with each injection!

Could b that the gear wasn't autoclaved or allowed to sit for extended periods of time. It's to my understanding that bacteria will die off after about a week. So after the bacteria dies off the ba won't allow new colonies to form. Leaving I with sterile gear and no pip. My guess.

-TroN-

[Lunk1]

Could b that the gear wasn't autoclaved or allowed to sit for extended periods of time. It's to my understanding that bacteria will die off after about a week. So after the bacteria dies off the ba won't allow new colonies to form. Leaving I with sterile gear and no pip. My guess.

-TroN-

So are saying you believe PIP is caused by bacteria??????????????

[kronik420]

for me it was just virgin muscle...

and possibly too high of a volume into it....

couldn;t walk for 3 days lol...

[Tron3219]

So are saying you believe PIP is caused by bacteria??????????????

From what I've read, it could be, but not the sole reason every time. I'm no expert, but from my understanding it could be.

-TroN-

[panntastic]

To me personally pip will come from either injection technique or BA content
Even the most seasoned pro i.m injectors will mess up one or twice a cycle
To keep such a fine needle tip that's as sharp as a razor steady would require superhuman like concentration every time.

Like I said in my original post I wanted to explore all avenues of PIP and possible origins

[Far from massive]

Nice thread but I would like to give some input -Ive been injecting along time and I can say FOR ME warming the oil up before injection helps with PIP. I don't care if there aren't any studies or logic in it but I know it helps a lot with me. Lets forget about the cycles I do and go with my TRT which is Nebido a 4ml injection all at once for an example if I don't warm it up over a kettle before injecting I get PIP if I do warm it up I don't get any. My injection protocol is the same and I am very aware of the procedure but I can tell a difference if I warm it up. Take that as you may just giving some feedback from someone who's done many injections and from what ive seen with myself.



Great thread Panntastic keep up the good work

I have been back and forth with several members who have posted saying warming gear does nothing. To me this defies common logic, an oil based solution injected into a muscle can either spread through the muscle tissue evenly or remain in one spot. Now of course this is not an all or nothing deal but it stands to reason that both slow injection as well as warming the oil to reduce viscosity will both help the oil based solution migrate through the muscle tissue causing less local truama.

Anyway thanks for posting this as I hate to think of warming the oil being grouped as broscience.


Oh almost forgot....Very well written thread Pan, keep up the good work!


PS, in response to Lunks post, I warm my gear to about 120°f by the time I pin, the syringe barrel is slightly warm to the touch, this to me is the ideal temp, slightly above body temp (hot will not be fun!). Conversly if you inject gear at 65-75 degrees the body will have to warm the gear pulling heat from the muscle in the depot area. Also the warming of the gear will take time and you will have finished pumping the shot into the muscle before it takes place. This is why the gear will not disperse into the muscle as well when injected at room temp.

Not saying anyone is right or wrong just expressing my views on the subject.

[Lunk1]

I have been back and forth with several members who have posted saying warming gear does nothing. To me this defies common logic, an oil based solution injected into a muscle can either spread through the muscle tissue evenly or remain in one spot. Now of course this is not an all or nothing deal but it stands to reason that both slow injection as well as warming the oil to reduce viscosity will both help the oil based solution migrate through the muscle tissue.

Anyway thanks for posting this as I hate to think of warming the oil being grouped as broscience.


Oh almost forgot....Very well written thread Pan, keep up the good work!

Perhaps I'm wrong and this may be info above my pay grade but it's my understanding that the oil, no matter how thin, does NOT dispurse upon injection. In fact it sits in a depot (or pocket) for...if I remember right...36-48 hours in most cases!

The only argument for warming that I could see holding any water is that being less viscious allows you to inject more steadily because it would push through the pin slightly better and you may shake less!

[jimmyinkedup]

I tend to think warming in some cases can help. I have 2 examples showing both sides of that position. When I ran Omega tren (which was fvcking garbage) the pip was insane. When I warmed the oil I simply dealt with a larger area of pain. However when I ran supertest 450 that had some pip warming it helped substantially. Also of note when I added other compounds in wth the supertest there was no pip. There was PIP with the Omega Tren even with other compounds.

[clarky.]

So do you guy's think there is some gear in a semi crashed state ??

[kelkel]

Paaaaaantastic!

Fantastic read! Thanks bro!

Ive added this to my Link Library.

There's room Mick?



Great thread Pan! I don't ever recall experiencing PIP but if I do, I'll be re-reading this for sure!
Very nicely done.

Re Lov. That 16 ga needle is what they use on me when I give blood. Quite a scary looking needle to say the least!