20 Years Old, First Cycle.

[Ignorant]

Hey, new to the forums, posting here to get the vet's opinions on my first cycle, having been researching since my second year of training, ( have been training since i was 16, 20 years old now), added a considerable amount of LBM on my frame, 10-11kg, in addition to having lost 50kg of fat from my physique from my heavy bulks (which hind-sight were not the best approaches although i did learn alot about my body), i am not new to the nutrition and diet game, much like everything i do with my diet it is very malicious in terms of structured and planned, i know that 20 years old is not the best age to be thinking of Anabolics although having said that with coming onto 4 years of training on my belt, having added 20-25lb of pure muscle on my frame and losing 50kg+ fat naturally shows my dedication and knowledge on nutrition and diet,

My stats;

20 Years Old,
5'11-6'0.
160lb~
7-9% Bodyfat.



Goal: My Goal is to add a significant amount of LBM this cycle (10-15lb+) , have a few questions regarding PCT and whether to add a 'kicker' such as dbol into the first 4 weeks as i will be using a longer ester testosterone (enanthate ).



Cycle;
Week 1-12 test-E 500mg/week. 250mg Monday and Thursday.
Week 1-12 Armidex 0.5mg EOD
Week 3-13 HCG 250IU x2 Week Monday and Thursday.


PCT;
Week 15 40mg Nolvadex Every Day 100mg clomid Every Day
Week 16 40mg Nolvadex Every Day 100mg clomid Every Day
Week 17 20mg Nolvadex Every Day 50mg clomid Every Day
Week 18 20mg Nolvadex Every Day 50mg clomid Every Day


I will have Armidex on hand incase of gyno, extreme water retention/bloat. (do not expect to get much with low sodium and if i choose not to take dbol)


My Questions include; should i include dbol as a kicker first 4 weeks as naturally test-e is a longer ester therefore the first 4 weeks would be the test building in my system, having said this as ironic as it may sound in relation to my age, HEALTH is a #1 priority in this cycle therefore i am happy and content with a basic test-e cycle as i am sure that will benefit me a great deal, i am not wanting to put any undue stress on my liver, heart and other organs. Another question is, does my PCT look enough, i have been told to maybe add in clomid ontop of nolvadex @ 50mg ED for weeks 15 and 16 and 25mg weeks 17 and 18, although researching on clomid some say it is a unnecessary drug in terms of sides in comparison with Nolvadex is fine.

Also in regards to Armidex, what would the dosage be if i do come in contact with early signs of gyno or puffy/sore nipples i was told .5mg EOD? until symptoms go away?

In terms of my diet; My TDEE @ 160lb is 2500, my calories will be consisting of 3000 at the baseline start of my 'bulk' at the macros of 250/350/75 (P,C,F) This will naturally raise higher and higher as my bulk continues, in terms of food sources im aware this post is already long enough so i will not post down a generic diet plan although i will be sitting away with sodium due to chances of bloating and to keep it down, fat will consist of poly and mono (also saturated for health reasons, just minimized)

My training regime is a 5 day split,
Monday; Chest/Abs/Traps
Tuesday; Quads/Hammies/Calves
Wednesday; Shoulders/Traps
Thursday; Back/Biceps
Friday; Chest/Triceps

Question regarding my split;
1. My main priority development wise would be definitely my chest, with the aid of anabolics training chest twice a week would seem do-able although close to shoulders (such as shown on wednesday and friday) would that be a issue due to recovery? being a natural i am not sure on the frequency in which such big bodyparts can be hit a week. I am aware traps are already very responsive to training and can be trained EOD.

For the people who read through that WHOLLEEE thing, thank you. I know i will get the "learn how to diet, natural potential!, i am aware and im sure this may not be the BEST idea at this age, although before i do commit and take that first injection, i will be having a blood test, EKG on my heart, urine test for my liver, everything needed to make sure i am in good health to undergo this.

[Times Roman]

I'd advise against steroids at your age. Wait a few years when your hormonal system is fully developed.

Until then, continue focusing on improving your diet and exercise routines.

Good luck

---Roman

[Chx beach 79]

To young. You said health is your main concern so that's good. You are to young! Don't do it...

[crazy mike]

Help me Elizabeth help me, I think i'm coming to you. it's gonna be a big one....Oooh no. I will not start, I will be nice, I will be helpful and kinda.....................
Your age, no
your age, your body type and maturity you will fill up with water
your age you will lose most
Your age add Dbol and you will be a roly poly
Possible at your age high does of Test w/Dbol equals injury to ligaments and tendons, not being ready.

Possible Gyno with added Dbol at that age. other than that I have nothing more to say
That's all OP, ....crazy mike

[Chx beach 79]

Help me Elizabeth help me, I think i'm coming to you. it's gonna be a big one....Oooh no. I will not start, I will be nice, I will be helpful and kinda.....................
Your age, no
your age, your body type and maturity you will fill up with water
your age you will lose most
Your age add Dbol and you will be a roly poly
Possible at your age high does of Test w/Dbol equals injury to ligaments and tendons, not being ready.

Possible Gyno with added Dbol at that age. other than that I have nothing more to say
That's all OP, ....crazy mike

I was just waiting for you to get back from dinner and see this!!! This is all yours... Have fun Crazy Mike!

[Chx beach 79]

You said you wanted to put on LBM, so why dbol ? It will make you look like a water buffalo!

[Chx beach 79]

Also your body fat is way higher then what you stated above! If you can't be honest no one can help you, also if you can't judge your Bodyfat within a few percent you don't have as much experience with diet and nutrition as you stated above!

You are also very light at 6'0' suggesting your diet needs a lot of work!

[crazy mike]

Ok I agree with Chx about the lying or ignorance, jeez your name. But I see now after I had to run you down from running and advising out your booty , and some one told you to respect, your coming around to ask for help. One more dig for the spirit kid. your Q's here show how little you know. So take the best advise and Roman and others said YOU ARE TOO YOUNG and you are going to screw up.

Now one thing AI is to be used especially for the novice. You don't keep it on hand just incase, incase you get Gyno. Too late , well for the most part,.
But I'm done and I haven't started. I can't go on with ignorance you know about Dbol you think.
Just stop or even put it off several months if you going to be a jerk and learn what it is all about. Get to know what you are looking at in the mirror even.
I'll respect that fact that you are ignorant and give you the doubt that maybe you aren't STUPID. Show us now you will get it right and not be STUPID. I challenge you that. Start studying. KIDDO ! ...crazy mike


Check me on this one Chx beach

[toilet]

Why not kick start with test prop? Im just formulating my first cycle and thought that seemed like the best idea...

[austinite]

Why not kick start with test prop? Im just formulating my first cycle and thought that seemed like the best idea...

Based on what? If I recall you have no experience.

[toilet]

Hence why I qualified my post with the "I'm just formulating my first cycle" bit. And because test prop enters the system much faster it makes logical sense. Is there something wrong with doing that? is that what youre saying...

[Flacco]

I think you look like you're in good shape, but I'm sure you could pack some more LBM wish alteration of diet/training. If I could go back... I probably would have waited till my 30's to do a cycle. Just my opinions

[austinite]

Hence why I qualified my post with the "I'm just formulating my first cycle" bit. And because test prop enters the system much faster it makes logical sense. Is there something wrong with doing that? is that what youre saying...

Always something wrong with advising anyone on things you've never experienced.

[toilet]

Always something wrong with advising anyone on things you've never experienced.

With all respect, I don't see the need to be condescending just because I am new. And of course there is a conceptual distinction between 'practical experience' and 'knowledge'... there are plenty of meat-heads that inject and don't know a thing so I wouldn't use 'experiencing it' as the yardstick for being able to give advice. So unless there was something wrong with what I said (which there isn't) I don't see the need to put me down... just trying to fit in here and learn bro and I saw something I could answer so thought I would contribute.

[crazy mike]

With all respect, I don't see the need to be condescending just because I am new. And of course there is a conceptual distinction between 'practical experience' and 'knowledge'... there are plenty of meat-heads that inject and don't know a thing so I wouldn't use 'experiencing it' as the yardstick for being able to give advice. So unless there was something wrong with what I said (which there isn't) I don't see the need to put me down... just trying to fit in here and learn bro and I saw something I could answer so thought I would contribute.

EXCUSE ME BRO SCIENCE MAN. At 22 yrs of age and no experience. Did you read this entire thread from start to finish. Do you know the root cause of most of what was being said here and where we as a whole (generally) of experienced members were taking OP for his benefit. So he can reach his goal the safest way possible. What we as a whole were advising.

Do you know anything about what was going on with Op when he was making grave errors in and on other posts that we were also trying to teach him. Op doesn't need to get confused because you want to show your a$$ and act like you know something in which you have never done .
There was almost a conclusion here and you stick in needless ridiculous suggestion.
You now have shown your A$$ as a young big-shot who came into the tail of a thread and just had to say something irrelevant. And Austin~ is correct in if you've never done it, know nothing about is then don't shout it, Kid.....crazy mike

IN conclusion you didn't need to say a word, so to just ad confusion to the REAL principal of where we brought this thread with OP. Just didn't need the bullsh!t

[austinite]

With all respect, I don't see the need to be condescending just because I am new. And of course there is a conceptual distinction between 'practical experience' and 'knowledge'... there are plenty of meat-heads that inject and don't know a thing so I wouldn't use 'experiencing it' as the yardstick for being able to give advice. So unless there was something wrong with what I said (which there isn't) I don't see the need to put me down... just trying to fit in here and learn bro and I saw something I could answer so thought I would contribute.

I wasn't being condescending. You need to make sure OP is aware that you have zero experience. Knowledge is great, experience is a different ballgame. This is OP's first cycle, there is no need for prop kick start. Theres no need to cycle altogether. It's entirely obvious what the problem is and it's certainly not the lack of gear.

So yeah, tons wrong with what you said. Allow experienced members to advise others before you possibly cause someone harm. It's what we're all about here; safe and logical cycling.

[crazy mike]

Keep in mind "Toilet" we /I speak from years of reading and more years of experience then you have alive. These people are not steroid junkies, (most) ha they read, they have been educated and they have EXPERIENCE to boot. Where is your boot. ....crazy mike

[ksingh93]

I did my first cycle with same stuff as said above dbol adds water but it gives u a kick start too as test e kicks in after appx 5 weeks .if u r planning to compete or something like that u can do it but it can ruin your endocrine system and **** u up with fertility . So if u r planning to do jus to be big than its not worth it if u planning to compete than u can AND DIET IS THE MAIN KEY TO GROW STEROIDS DN WORK WITHOUGHT PROPER DIET

[toilet]

Okay. Since you are going to insult me I'll bite.

EXCUSE ME BRO SCIENCE MAN. At 22 yrs of age and no experience.

Your statement is an example of stipulative reasoning; it is posited on the assumption that because I am young I know nothing and therefore what I say MUST be 'broscience'. I think you will find what I said was substantively correct and I am just suddenly being attacked.

I did read the entire thread start to finish. I read EVERY thread I post in from start to finish...

Op doesn't need to get confused because you want to show your a$$ and act like you know something in which you have never done.

You now have shown your A$$ as a young big-shot who came into the tail of a thread and just had to say something irrelevant. And Austin~ is correct in if you've never done it, know nothing about is then don't shout it, Kid.....crazy mike

Mature. See above point. Usually when somebody has a weak argument they create a 'straw man' - that is they make something up and then attribute it to their opponent only to tear it down to make their position look stronger. If you were to have read the entire thread you would have seen that my above post clearly stated my reason for answering.

What I said was substantively correct. There is nothing wrong with using test prop to kick start longer esters. The reason you are all upset is, I am gathering, because this guy is only 20 years old and thus none of his questions should be answered. Is that correct?

Also, if you are going to insult someone's intelligence; learning the difference between 'principal' and 'principle' may be a good place to start...

I wasn't being condescending. You need to make sure OP is aware that you have zero experience. Knowledge is great, experience is a different ballgame. This is OP's first cycle, there is no need for prop kick start. Theres no need to cycle altogether. It's entirely obvious what the problem is and it's certainly not the lack of gear.

So yeah, tons wrong with what you said. Allow experienced members to advise others before you possibly cause someone harm. It's what we're all about here; safe and logical cycling.

I will preface my posts with "NEWBIE POSTING" from now on. I gather that he is too young but what I said still stands correct for those of appropriate age to cycle.

Keep in mind "Toilet" we /I speak from years of reading and more years of experience then you have alive. These people are not steroid junkies, (most) ha they read, they have been educated and they have EXPERIENCE to boot. Where is your boot. ....crazy mike

I have a law degree... I am hardly uneducated lol. I will refrain from spell checking your post again because that would just get tedious. But I reiterate, there is no need to diverge from respectful posting. Consider my perspective here; I post one thing and instantly get ripped on. Austinite was at least a bit more polite than you are being to me... and if my memory serves me correctly I have read your recent cycle updates (if it is not you then I apologise in advance for my memory failing me) and you are running crazy levels of gear when, based on where your physique is at the moment, you should be able to make plenty of gains with a less extreme cycle if you were to adhere to a proper training programme and diet. So if you are going to rip in to me and the OP then at least practice what you preach.

It is totally unfair to just rip into me and sling the personal insults for no reason at all. I am fine with being polite but I resent being talked down to. All meant in the nicest way possible...

[marcus300]

There isn't an exact age were we all stop developing and growing because this is determined by our genes and DNA, we are all genetically programmed individually and we inherit our genes from our parents. To give an exact age we stop growing would be incorrect because everyone's genetic blueprint is different.The main development of our bodies is up to the age of 21yrs of age but this can vary between individuals. There are parts of our bodies what carry on developing and adjusting slowly up until the age of 25yrs old, an example of this is the brain. The Endocrine system is a part of the brain what is very complex and keeps our bodies in a homeostasis state. Our testosterone levels start raising and roughly peak around 25yrs old and then start to slowly decline, so even though some of us may have stopped growing at the age of 21yrs old, others may still be developing up until the age of 25yrs old.

I have recently spoken to my Endo regarding this matter and he tells me that the HPTA is very sensitive and as many pathways how it regulates the human body, he states steroids disrupt the normal balance of hormones in the body which can cause reversible and irreversible changes at any age but risks are far more if you administrate exogenous androgens during development, this will put you in a very unnatural environment at a crucial time and your hormones should be treated with care especially in the early stages of maturity. The adverse effects can be erratic behaviour of the HPTA and potentially therapy when your older.

I did ask him what age he would think would be the safest as far as risk to damages and he said many endocrinologist suggest full maturation is reached by 25 years of age and this would also give the HPTA time to be established with your natural hormone balance and patterns. I personally feel 24-25yrs old would also be ideal starting point to get bloodwrok drawn to see exact what your natural levels are before starting any kind of cycles and waiting till you have reach your testosterone peak would be a good starting point, for me there is to much evidence over the forums and what I've seen personally over the last 25yrs I've been bodybuilding. Obviously it isn't going to be all 19- 21yr old bodybuilders who suffer side effects what are irreversible but I am edging on the side of caution what age I advice to the newbies.
Marcus

[marcus300]

AGE
In humans your Endocrine system is not fully functional until an average age of 25yrs, although the main development is up to around 21yrs it still fluctuates a little bit up to its fully functional age. There is a risk of permanently damaging your HPTA if you take AAS to young and you could end up with symptoms of andropause and HRT for life. Symptoms could be Limp dick, low libido, depression, low energy, low endurance, erection problems and many more but.......are these the types of symptoms you want to have in your 20's?. Believe me its hard to cope with these in your 40's yet alone in your prime of your life.

Around this age your Testosterone levels are the highest they going to be in your life naturally, so use what you have and don't take the risk of damage, I am passionate about this because ive seen it many times with young kids wanting to looking like their heroes and they think the answer is in an injection/tablet.

Taking AAS to young can also cause problems with development, one other main problem is premature sealing of your epiphyeal bone and the consequences mean that you wont grow as big as your genetics could allow you to, there is a test which can be done to see if your growth plates have sealed yet but the average age is around 21yrs old.



TRAINING
You need a few years of hard training under your belt before even considering taking any kind of anabolic support, people who jump on a cycle to soon without having some quality years under their belt usually results in injuries, it takes time to develop your connective tissue, tendons and nervous system to heavy overload training. Slowly getting your own system use to these kinds of extreme's will only help in muscle growth later on when you do decide to start taking AAS.

Build a solid foundation for muscle tissue to grow and maintaining and development will be far greater than without it. Many younger guys will start cycling before they have reached their genetic potential which is crazy when a good solid diet and training program will be far beneficial and productive to muscle building.

Workouts should be mainly focused on basic movements with a priority of over loading the muscle each and ever time you train, increasing your strength and ability to lift in proper form will help with building the foundation for future development


DIET
A lot of younger bodybuilders don't know how to eat. Researching and understanding how your own body responds will help you get to your natural limit, the right food at the right time and a full understanding of proteins,carbs, and fats will only help you succeed in achieving your natural goals. Keeping a diet diary will also help you understand the importance of macro, nutrients, calories and should help you see in which areas you could be going wrong in adding lean muscle tissue.

No matter how much anabolic support you have it will be worthless without proper nutrition, food will help build and maintain your valued muscle weather its natural, cycling or in PCT. Adjusting your food intake and consuming muscle building foods coupled with a solid training program will help you achieve your natural limit and foundation before you start AAS use.

This area is a huge problem with the younger guys and I can't express enough how important diet/food is when first starting out, post and pre training nutrition are very important and understanding how to load and feed the body will help push growth and create a very natural anabolic environment.

[crazy mike]

Toilet I'll address a few items here and as I didn't do I'll get out of this thread.

My spelling, well being bad it is but at my age and my handicaps it is just that. I would think it to be shallow of some person in the field of law, possibly an English major to make note while your understanding of the context should not hinder you. I hope it didn't. My point was made.
In so far as answering OP's Q's ( that's an abbreviation) we did to the extent they needed to be and as far as a thread could take to teach him all of what he needs to research.

Also I was not attacking you intelligence although you seen to be insecure by your come back, I was referring to your knowledge and lack of experience. Hence the education remark was in that regard, Steroids . So you grow up and please stick the overall context.
I/ you can pull anything out of context and make a point, but nothing to do with the reality of what we were trying to tell OP. Again reread the entire thread and how it was evolving.

As per Marcus's post nothing I said was not true. Like your statement, but yours came at the end and was pushing OP to consider another way to continue his planning.

I'll give you this, you may be able to dominate an tear down my writing but the point I made, no matter how inefficiently made still rings true. You came in out of place, at a time that your comment was not needed for the sake or what WE were teaching OP.

To conclude guy your comment was to tell Op what he need not consider. That is why you were out of place. We have a common goal and that is to help and to help with as safe as possible ways to train, eat, and use aas. Given the thread I reiterate YOU WERE OUT OF PLACE, with your suggestion to OP. Get off your pride and really think about your motive, was it to support the group of member that wanted o help OP with his safety. WE were telling him NOT to run, NOT how to run. ...crazy mike
OH, If I misspelled or used the wrong word, get out your dictionary and read between the lines.
Thanks for the appropriate input Marcus that was it. Maybe both of these guys wil get out of the prideful zone and learn something. My FINAL POST on this thread ...not sooo crazy mike

[MajorPectorial]

Hate to parrot. Cm is saying how it is. (I don't mean the to n fro arguing. Come on guys. Play nice plzzzzzzzz). You really really reeeaaalllllyyy are better off using the natty test obviously still bouncing around your system. You got good shape. Come along way and you can go a lot further. You want to squeeze every last ounze of natty lbm as possible. Yes. It takes longer to gain. But it takes longer to lose too. N the better your base if in a few years you finally decide to take the plunge. You'll of had plenty of time to REALLY learn how your body reacts and works. If tour finding your slowing down try posting your daily macros. Diet etc in the nutrition section. See if the pros there can improve on it. Maybe even post your workout routines in the relevant thread. You'd be surprised how much you can tweak your body.

Its like a plain super car right now. Then I do all the extras the fine tweaking to ur wheels(hammerring legs increasing test naturally) . Weight (getting a good height to weight ratio). Streamlining (looking at routines where you get more from your workouts). Boreing out cylinders (eating more).

After you've done all those mods

Then add the Nos;-)

[toilet]

Also I was not attacking you intelligence although you seen to be insecure by your come back, I was referring to your knowledge and lack of experience. Hence the education remark was in that regard, Steroids. So you grow up and please stick the overall context.

Not insecure at all man. I have nothing against you or anyone until they start being rude to me. Again, I answered the OP's question and then you jump in the thread with a long paragraph calling me a know it all kid and talking down to me; the subcommunication of your post being that I'm just a 'dumb kid'. Of course if you treat me like that I am going to take umbrage at that and retaliate.

There is no point me throwing any snide remarks into my post (as you did in yours). So all I am going to say is this;

There are plenty of nicer ways to get your point across. If you felt I shouldn't have given advice to the OP because he was too young then say it. That is a much more mature way of dealing with things.

With regard to my motive; as a young person I know what it is like to come in with a lot of questions and have none of them addressed. When 10 people jump on the thread like parrots stating "you're too young" it gets tedious. That aside, I was merely giving him a more safer alternative to dbol to kick start his cycle (THUS HELPING HIM).

But yes perhaps I could have prefaced my post with a "You're too young for steroids and also I am new so don't have a lot of experience but...". But as previously stated, politeness goes a long way and in the future I would like if someone would point out to me nicely if they feel my post is out of line. It is just common courtesy. Arguing is just counterproductive to everybody.

[Fcarey32]

I do have to agree on toilets last sentence... There sure is a lot of heated arguing on this forum, I will say, most of it is caused by people like him, but no one is learning or getting a positive experience from arguing guys lol.