Thinking about a first cycle (to cut) - looking for advice

[nussnussbaby]

Hello all,

I'm 26 yrs old, 5-7, 190lbs, 10+%bf. I've been lifting weights for sports since I was about 13, but only verrry seriously, and eating right, for about the last year and a half. I've attached my last progress picture below.

My goal is to get to about 170lbs, close to 6%bf.

So, I'm about to start cutting. And I was thinking about taking steroids (for the first time) while I cut. I figure if I lower my calories enough (I'm very, very disciplined with my diet), I'll be able to cut the weight I want on my cycle (2lbs/wk for 10 wks ~ or something like that), and I'll be able to retain a larger percentage of my muscle mass.

*I really don't want to take steroids for more than one cycle. I'm hoping that I'll more or less be where I want to be after this cut. But we'll see how realistic that is, I guess.*

I don't know much about all of this. I have one "reasonably" informed friend I talk to. But I could really use some expert advice. Is this a good plan? What steroid (s) should I use? Any informed discussion would be really great.

Thanks a ton in advance!

[juice-box]

If its your first cycle I would not advise going into a cut AAS doesn't dictate weight loss the diet does. First cycle you should always try an been a surplus for best results.

[newguy92]

Hello all, I'm 26 yrs old, 5-7, 190lbs, 10+%bf. I've been lifting weights for sports since I was about 13, but only verrry seriously, and eating right, for about the last year and a half. I've attached my last progress picture below. My goal is to get to about 170lbs, close to 6%bf. So, I'm about to start cutting. And I was thinking about taking steroids (for the first time) while I cut. I figure if I lower my calories enough (I'm very, very disciplined with my diet), I'll be able to cut the weight I want on my cycle (2lbs/wk for 10 wks ~ or something like that), and I'll be able to retain a larger percentage of my muscle mass. *I really don't want to take steroids for more than one cycle. I'm hoping that I'll more or less be where I want to be after this cut. But we'll see how realistic that is, I guess.* I don't know much about all of this. I have one "reasonably" informed friend I talk to. But I could really use some expert advice. Is this a good plan? What steroid(s) should I use? Any informed discussion would be really great. Thanks a ton in advance!

If you want to cut you don't need any gear man. Just diet and train. Lose your weight and then think about AAS.

[sawyer86]

You already look good mate. Well done but i agree with the guys. Looking at your body and your goals you dont need gear to achieve what you want. Your not to far away why dont you up your cardio and use your diet to cut. The nutrition section will help you out.

[nussnussbaby]

Thanks for the responses, guys.

My training and diet regimen's are already quite advanced (I've read a lot, and talked a lot to a lot of experts about it ~ I think what I do is more or less the best thing there is to do).

I cut down to 170 last summer (from an even higher starting point, like 210), and I was not at all pleased with the amount of muscle I retained, or my ultimate body fat percentage. I'm far stronger this winter at 190 than I've ever been, but still, I worry about this cut being another failure.. I thought that extra supplements might be of benefit to me this time around.

Even if it's not "necessary", if it's something that might help me, I'd be really interested in learning more about it.

*Also, I sort of like the idea of using extra supplements to retain muscle in a cut, as opposed to gaining it in a bulk. Wouldn't I eventually lose whatever muscle I gained in a bulk without further use anyways? Like I said, ideally, I'm not really interested in multiple cycles.

[CoolStroybro]

Test Propinate + Winstrol

[clarky.]

Looking good mate

NUTRITION RESOURCE FORUM

[nussnussbaby]

Test Propinate + Winstrol

I'm interested to learn more about this idea, the details. Are these "cutting"-specific steroids ?

[newguy92]

Thanks for the responses, guys. My training and diet regimen's are already quite advanced (I've read a lot, and talked a lot to a lot of experts about it ~ I think what I do is more or less the best thing there is to do). I cut down to 170 last summer (from an even higher starting point, like 210), and I was not at all pleased with the amount of muscle I retained, or my ultimate body fat percentage. I'm far stronger this winter at 190 than I've ever been, but still, I worry about this cut being another failure.. I thought that extra supplements might be of benefit to me this time around. Even if it's not "necessary", if it's something that might help me, I'd be really interested in learning more about it. *Also, I sort of like the idea of using extra supplements to retain muscle in a cut, as opposed to gaining it in a bulk. Wouldn't I eventually lose whatever muscle I gained in a bulk without further use anyways? Like I said, ideally, I'm not really interested in multiple cycles.

For a first cycle all you should use is testosterone . Ultimately your diet will dictate if you're cutting or not. If you're on testosterone and you're cutting you won't "blow up" as people think.

Week 1-10 testosterone enanthate 250mg 2x/week
Week 1-10 arimidex 0.25mg every other day
Week 1-10 HCG 250iu 2x/week
Post cycle therapy :
Week 12-16 Nolvadex 40/week for week 1, 20mg for next 3
Week 12-16 clomid 75 for week 1, 50mg for next 3

Also go read some of the educational threads. Don't just jump into this. Get educated and know what's going into your body.

[nussnussbaby]

For a first cycle all you should use is testosterone . Ultimately your diet will dictate if you're cutting or not. If you're on testosterone and you're cutting you won't "blow up" as people think.

Week 1-10 testosterone enanthate 250mg 2x/week
Week 1-10 arimidex 0.25mg every other day
Week 1-10 HCG 250iu 2x/week
Post cycle therapy :
Week 12-16 Nolvadex 40/week for week 1, 20mg for next 3
Week 12-16 clomid 75 for week 1, 50mg for next 3

Also go read some of the educational threads. Don't just jump into this. Get educated and know what's going into your body.

Thank you for the thoughtful and seemingly (hell if I know?) informed response! I'm going to keep reading the stickies on the board to educate myself.

*I've read about a lot of old-school body builders who bulked up naturally, and then cut on steroids - bc it helped them retain almost all of their muscle. But I've heard from various bro's that I'd gain weight no matter what on my first cycle. Good to hear that it's still all a matter of calories.

When I'm ready to go, I'm just curious, is there like a resident expert on the board whom everyone respects? I'd like to PM him or her a proposed plan (such as the one posted above) and see what they think about it before going through with it.

[sawyer86]

There are a lot of guys here lime that. Just post your cycle in the forum for everyone to see and youl get a lot of input.

[clarky.]

Nutrition it the most important thing here not what compound you use they will only help with your goal i gave you a link in post # 7 and the lay out in post #9 the adex would be run to the start of pct so wk14 not wk12 you.

[Back In Black]

Mate there is nothing wrong with the cycle suggested by newguy with the amendments by Clarky (though 12 weeks may be a better length) but, as stated, diet will dictate your results. Yes it is easier to gain LBM on cycle with less calories than it would take naturally but that doesn't mean you will gain weight. If you only eat 1000cals daily you will not gain weight besides what would it matter if you actually gained a few lbs LBM whilst dropping a few lbs of fat?!

Your goals bother me a little though. You want to lose 20lbs of weight and You plan on losing 10lbs of muscle(!!!!!!!!) so why do you need a cycle if you are happy to accept that loss. If you are happy to accept that loss you are crazy. That probably over a years worth of muscle that you are willing to piss away.

I think you need to work out what you really want. As I said you can cut that weight quickly and naturally with no risk from running AAS, ok you will lose hard earned muscle but that's ok,right?.

Or you can do it naturally and slowly and aim for a maximum loss of 1lb per week in an attempt to preserve as much LBM as possible.

Or you can run a cycle with more of a recomp diet, you can eat close to maintenance and maintain (at least) your LBM and drop fat whilst on. Of course, when the cycle is over you will be better increasing calories during pct which is likely to lead to some fat gain and then maintain that for at least 4 weeks before you consider moving into any kind of caloric deficit.

[nussnussbaby]

Nutrition it the most important thing here not what compound you use they will only help with your goal i gave you a link in post # 7 and the lay out in post #9 the adex would be run to the start of pct so wk14 not wk12 you.

I'm still getting through all the stickies on the board..

Forgive me for being a newbie here, but I don't quite understand your "adex". You're saying that I should do what differently?

[Back In Black]

Read this mate hopefully it should help explain

http://forums.steroid.com/anabolic-s...rst-cycle.html

[sawyer86]

Arimadex. Use it during cycle.

[nussnussbaby]

Mate there is nothing wrong with the cycle suggested by newguy with the amendments by Clarky (though 12 weeks may be a better length) but, as stated, diet will dictate your results. Yes it is easier to gain LBM on cycle with less calories than it would take naturally but that doesn't mean you will gain weight. If you only eat 1000cals daily you will not gain weight besides what would it matter if you actually gained a few lbs LBM whilst dropping a few lbs of fat?!

Your goals bother me a little though. You want to lose 20lbs of weight and You plan on losing 10lbs of muscle(!!!!!!!!) so why do you need a cycle if you are happy to accept that loss. If you are happy to accept that loss you are crazy. That probably over a years worth of muscle that you are willing to piss away.

I think you need to work out what you really want. As I said you can cut that weight quickly and naturally with no risk from running AAS, ok you will lose hard earned muscle but that's ok,right?.

Or you can do it naturally and slowly and aim for a maximum loss of 1lb per week in an attempt to preserve as much LBM as possible.

Or you can run a cycle with more of a recomp diet, you can eat close to maintenance and maintain (at least) your LBM and drop fat whilst on. Of course, when the cycle is over you will be better increasing calories during pct which is likely to lead to some fat gain and then maintain that for at least 4 weeks before you consider moving into any kind of caloric deficit.

Well. To be honest (and you can look at my picture and tell me what you think), I think I'm about 190lbs, 15%BF. So, I'm sitting at about 161.5lbs LBM.

If I was to get to my goal - - 170lbs, 6%BF - - I'd be sitting at 159.8lbs LBM.

That's 20lbs of fat loss, and only 1.7lbs of muscle loss.

...and you're saying that I should be on the steroid program for a total of 12, not 10 weeks?

[nussnussbaby]

Arimadex. Use it during cycle.

Okay. I still don't really get what he's saying though. "adex would be run to the start of pct so wk14 not wk12 you."

So, he's saying I should take Arimadex up until I start PCT? In the plan that was laid out for me, the cycle ends after 10 weeks, and the PCT starts after 12 weeks. I don't get what he's saying with the "wk14 not wk12 you"?

[nussnussbaby]

Thanks for the link BackInBlack! Still getting through all this, lot to take in!

[Back In Black]

Well. To be honest (and you can look at my picture and tell me what you think), I think I'm about 190lbs, 15%BF. So, I'm sitting at about 161.5lbs LBM.

If I was to get to my goal - - 170lbs, 6%BF - - I'd be sitting at 159.8lbs LBM.

That's 20lbs of fat loss, and only 1.7lbs of muscle loss.

...and you're saying that I should be on the steroid program for a total of 12, not 10 weeks?

I was going by the 10% you wrote in you first post (I wasn't really taking into account the + tbh. I'm 10% + but not as lean as you so it doesn't mean much really. And from your pic I'd pin you plenty closer to 10% than 15% based on that pic alone.

Okay. I still don't really get what he's saying though. "adex would be run to the start of pct so wk14 not wk12 you."

So, he's saying I should take Arimadex up until I start PCT? In the plan that was laid out for me, the cycle ends after 10 weeks, and the PCT starts after 12 weeks. I don't get what he's saying with the "wk14 not wk12 you"?

It if your cycle was extended to 12 weeks you would run the a'dex up until pct which would be 14 weeks.

Thanks for the link BackInBlack! Still getting through all this, lot to take in!

Yes there is. It's a big decision and I'm very pleased you are doing plenty of research for yourself before making the decision

[clarky.]

I'm still getting through all the stickies on the board..

Forgive me for being a newbie here, but I don't quite understand your "adex". You're saying that I should do what differently?

Apologies mate i thought is was a 12wk cycle not a 10wk lol right ok you would start taking your adex at the start of the cycle up untill you start you pct which will be wk12. And the you at the end was a typo lol.

[nussnussbaby]

I was going by the 10% you wrote in you first post (I wasn't really taking into account the + tbh. I'm 10% + but not as lean as you so it doesn't mean much really. And from your pic I'd pin you plenty closer to 10% than 15% based on that pic alone.

Thanks for the compliment. I think it's a rather forgiving picture though, lol.

It if your cycle was extended to 12 weeks you would run the a'dex up until pct which would be 14 weeks.

Interesting, alright. So, on a 12-wk cycle, you generally start PCT at 14 weeks...and take a'dex up until that point. Okay, thanks.

Yes there is. It's a big decision and I'm very pleased you are doing plenty of research for yourself before making the decision

For sure.

[nussnussbaby]

Apologies mate i thought is was a 12wk cycle not a 10wk lol right ok you would start taking your adex at the start of the cycle up untill you start you pct which will be wk12. And the you at the end was a typo lol.

Gotcha! Thanks for clearing that up!

[nussnussbaby]

Well, friends. Thanks a lot for helping me get started. I spent almost the entire day reading stickies, and got through almost all of them I needed to (there were some I didn't). Much better educated man. Gonna hang around and keep learning for about a month and a half while I think about it.

[nussnussbaby]

Some stuff I sort of skimmed over was..

The gyno stuff. Very complex. Seemed to be differing opinions, even from sticky to sticky. I figure I'll just follow the first-time protocol to the T and hope for the best (my bf% is relatively low). If something happens, I know where to go to find answers!

The blood test stuff. I've been healthy my entire life. Does everyone really go into a doctor's office three times, tell them they're juicing, and order all those tests?

And then a lot of the diet/workout/basics stuff I didn't need. My training's become quite advanced and I love it. I think I've gotten pretty good results thus far for a natural.

[ickythump]

Some stuff I sort of skimmed over was..

The gyno stuff. Very complex. Seemed to be differing opinions, even from sticky to sticky. I figure I'll just follow the first-time protocol to the T and hope for the best (my bf% is relatively low). If something happens, I know where to go to find answers!

The blood test stuff. I've been healthy my entire life. Does everyone really go into a doctor's office three times, tell them they're juicing, and order all those tests?

And then a lot of the diet/workout/basics stuff I didn't need. My training's become quite advanced and I love it. I think I've gotten pretty good results thus far for a natural.

Honestly, if you're natural, your results make me think I'm doing something wrong, and I've sank serious time and money into proper natural training...anyhow, no, don't go to your dr and day you're using steroids , there's quite a few ways to order hormone panels...the only comment I can make since you got a few experts in here already....good luck bud!!

[nussnussbaby]

Honestly, if you're natural, your results make me think I'm doing something wrong, and I've sank serious time and money into proper natural training...anyhow, no, don't go to your dr and day you're using steroids, there's quite a few ways to order hormone panels...the only comment I can make since you got a few experts in here already....good luck bud!!

Haha, thanks man! I am natural thus far, and really only about thirteen months into serious training and dieting (I started off at 240lbs, 30+% BF, believe it or not). I do think I have the genetics for this though ~ I have an uncle who won Mr. Detroit (and who I wish I saw more!) back in the day.

FWIW, I am a leangains practicioner (I'm not allowed to link, just google leangains dot com).

Training: I lift M,W,F. 30 minutes to an hour each session. Focus is on Dead-lifts/Chin-ups (weighted), Bench Press and Squats. 1-2 sets of 5-7 reps for the main lifts, then 1 set of 5-7 reps for 3-4 assistance exercises. The focus, simply, is on getting stronger in each exercise from week to week (esp. the main ones). It's something I've been able to do, almost each week, for the entire 13 months I've been on it. Takes a lot of intensity in the weight room, but I love the competitive nature of it ~ setting out to beat my last week's self in every session. It makes it fun and repeatable. I've tried a half-dozen or so other routines for a week or two here and there, but for me, this is by far what I've got the best gains out of. Get stronger = get more muscle. Simple. (I personally think that most popular programs overemphasize frequency, and underestimate the importance of rest)

Diet: I've toyed around with this over the 13 months as well. But the last 4 or 5 months I've been on the same protocol. Found what works best for me. I eat 1.5g/lb LBM protein every day. 150g of carbs on lift days. 50g of carbs on rest days. And I fill out my remaining caloric needs with fat. (*I am currently thinking about raising my workout day carbs to 200g, as I've started to plateau a little bit). If I'm bulking, I'll eat +30% TDEE on workout days, -10% on rest days. If I'm cutting, I'll eat +10% TDEE on workout days, -30% on rest days. If I'm maintaining, I'll eat +20% TDEE on workout days, -20% on rest days. I train fasted, with the exception of 10g BCAA pre-workout. Then I eat all of my calories within 8 hours of working out. On rest days I eat at the same time of day.

Supplements: 10g BCAA pre-workout, as I mentioned. 5g Creatine post-workout (which I go on for 3 months, off for 3 months). Multivitamin. Fish-Oil. Vitamin-D. Calcium. Yohimbine HCL and L-Tyrosine if I'm cutting...along w/ drinking a lot of black coffee and green tea, caffeine addict.

Food Choices: Main protein source: Eggs and Hydrolysate Whey Isolate. Main fat source: Eggs and Olive Oil. Main carb source: Broccoli, GNC SuperFood (to make-up for no fruit) and GNC Carb Supplement (on workout days).
*It's super easy to prepare and grocery shop w/ such a simple diet. Might not be perfect, but it's what's do-able for me, practically and financially.

I recommend everyone to check out the leangains site, it's quite interesting, and it's what I love.

[sawyer86]

Nice info.

[nussnussbaby]

It doesn't seem like much. And it seems crazy. But I've consistently noticed that if I do three sets of, say bench, instead of two. My gains aren't as good the next week.

I think there's something to just overwhelming and activating the muscles - - then leaving them the hell alone and feeding them.