Looking for some *EXPERT* advice on planning a first cycle (to cut)

[nussnussbaby]

Hello all.

I'm 26 yrs old, 5-7, 190lbs, 15%bf (161.5lbs LBM). I've included a recent progress picture below. My ultimate goal is 170lbs, 6%bf (159.8lbs LBM). So, I want to lose 20lbs total (18.3lbs fat, 1.7lbs muscle).

Obviously, that's a pretty optimistic cut (18.3lbs of fat loss and only 1.7lbs of muscle loss), so I'm thinking about using gear for the first time to help me out.

I'm going to lay out the specifics of my 'working' plan, and some general questions I have about it. I'd love to hear any feedback about any of it from EXPERTS on the board:



*****

I'm planning on going with the basic recommended first cycle:
- Week 1 to 12: Testosterone enanthate @ 250 mg every 3.5 days (500mg/week total)
- Week 1 to 12: hCG @ 250 iu every 3.5 days (500 iu/week total)
- Week 1 to 14: Arimidex @ 0.25mg every other day (From day 2 up until PCT starts)
- Week 14 to 18: Clomid @ 75/50/50/50
- Week 14 to 18: Nolvadex @ 40/20/20/20
*600 mg of N-Acetyl Cysteine (NAC) daily.

I want to lose 20lbs in 12wks, so I'm going to need to lose about 1.67lbs/wk, so I'm going to eat at an 845 cal daily deficit; 5,845 cal weekly deficit (3500 + 2/3rds of 3500).

*****



QUESTIONS:

1) First and foremost, is this going to work? If I use gear, and eat at this calorie deficit, am I going to be able to lose 18.3lbs of fat and only 1.7lbs of muscle? (*assuming perfect diet and training).

2) Assuming I am able to reach my goal on gear (170lbs, 6%bf, 159.8lbs LBM), am I going to be able to maintain it without additional cycles? (*again, assuming perfect diet and training). I'd really prefer to only need one cycle.

3) Do I really need gear? Would I be just as well off cutting naturally - losing, say, 0.5lbs/wk for 40wks. Would I be able to end up at the same finishing point? Would there be benefits to doing it naturally?



NOTES - PLEASE READ:

1) Please don't respond with advice unless you consider yourself to be a genuine "expert" on the topics brought up above (gear, and more specifically, cutting on gear). I really do appreciate that people are willing to share their opinions - - but I've recently gotten some bad, contradictory advice from board members without much seniority (or knowledge); and it confused more than it helped.

2) This isn't my first thread here. I started one right when I joined - I got some great feedback, I read all of the educational posts on the board, I learned a lot, now I'm waiting a month and a half to continue learning on the board and thinking about it.

3) I achieved the physique you see below naturally, and I don't naturally look like that. I've been seriously training and dieting for the last 13 months. I started off at 240+lbs, 30+bf%. And I think I've achieved a pretty nice physique naturally. I read a ton, I talked a ton to a ton of (real-deal) experts about training and dieting, and I experimented with a ton of different methods. I found out what worked best for me, and I have zero interest in overhauling that. My intensity in the weight-room, my discipline eating, and my consistency with all of this - - not to be a dick, but I'm not the average joe. If you're going to give me advice, please don't assume that I'm an average joe. I want the perfect physique, I want it bad, and I'm going to do absolutely everything in my power I can to achieve it.

4) I'm not interested in debating what my own personal goal (170lbs, 6%bf) should be. You want to look how you want to look, and that's great. You probably have an opinion of how I should want to look too, and that's also great. But honestly, I'm just not that interested in hearing about it.

5) I'm not interested in debating what my current bf% is. I've been to a bod-pod recently, it's about 15%. I know that picture looks like less than that. It's misleading. No need to debate it.

6) Most people aren't capable of reaching 6%bf. I know that. Some of it is genetics - I think I have great genetics for this (I have an uncle who was a former Mr. (our state)). I think I have superior training and dieting methods to most. I think I have superior intensity, discipline and consistency to most. 6%bf isn't possible for most to reach or maintain. I understand that. I'm not here to debate that. I'm not most people (and I'm sorry if that comes off poorly - but I've had a previous thread hijacked).

[Lunk1]

Your cycle looks great but your goal to cut that much fat with that little muscle loss in that amount of time MAY be a bit of a stretch. I wouldn't focus to much on losing a bit of muscle during the cutting process. It's inevitable. You just have to add it back slowly.

[ickythump]

Have you considered bulking?

[Lunk1]

Disclaimer: I'm no expert but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express.

[nussnussbaby]

Your cycle looks great but your goal to cut that much fat with that little muscle loss in that amount of time MAY be a bit of a stretch. I wouldn't focus to much on losing a bit of muscle during the cutting process. It's inevitable. You just have to add it back slowly.

Thanks for the response. And fair enough.

Is there a general rule of thumb for how much weight you should aim to cut on a 12 week cycle? Is the maximum 12lbs?

[Lunk1]

Thanks for the response. And fair enough.

Is there a general rule of thumb for how much weight you should aim to cut on a 12 week cycle? Is the maximum 12lbs?

Too many variables. Genetics, diet, cardio, LBM, AAS. Since you are already appear very lean (I would never have guessed over 12%) it becomes increasingly difficult. The more fat you have the easier it is to lose without sacrificing as much muscle tissue. I'm sure you have seen this in your transformation. Once one gets to a lower body fat and especially when shooting for the mark you have set, each % becomes increasingly more difficult.

I'm only speculating but if you lost 12 lbs in 12 weeks I would venture a guess that nearly 1/3 would be muscle tissue.

[dusted411]

Good work bro, no matter what you decide to run with. That picture is a long way from 240 30%bf so keep it up and I hope someone on here helps you further your progression.

[nussnussbaby]

Too many variables. Genetics, diet, cardio, LBM, AAS. Since you are already appear very lean (I would never have guessed over 12%) it becomes increasingly difficult. The more fat you have the easier it is to lose without sacrificing as much muscle tissue. I'm sure you have seen this in your transformation. Once one gets to a lower body fat and especially when shooting for the mark you have set, each % becomes increasingly more difficult.

I'm only speculating but if you lost 12 lbs in 12 weeks I would venture a guess that nearly 1/3 would be muscle tissue.

I'm not an expert either. But that sounds a little over-cautious. I think I could do better than that even without gear??

[nussnussbaby]

Good work bro, no matter what you decide to run with. That picture is a long way from 240 30%bf so keep it up and I hope someone on here helps you further your progression.

Thanks man. Really appreciate it. If you're ever interested in hearing how I train or eat (it's quite different), just ask

[clarky.]

Well buddy you are looking good so well done and good luck with your goals

[ken9]

why u have hair lose on ur head watch out for that when u cycle if u have that in ur family u might as well lose hair on cycle
Btw u look older than 26 damn! but looking monster man really HULK haha great job

[nussnussbaby]

Bump. Still would really like to hear some more EXPERT opinions here.

One guy told me that if I was to lose 12lbs in 12wks (on gear), I could expect for 1/3rd of that weight to be muscle.

To me that's unacceptable. I could do better than that even without gear. If that's the result I'd get, then what's the point?

[nussnussbaby]

why u have hair lose on ur head watch out for that when u cycle if u have that in ur family u might as well lose hair on cycle
Btw u look older than 26 damn! but looking monster man really HULK haha great job

I do have some male pattern baldness lol. I figure I'm going to lose it soon enough anyways, so it's not that big of a deal - - but is that pretty much to be expected on a first cycle?

How can you tell I look older than 26 lol? You can barely see my face?

[dogfight]

I believe your goal is possible but losing that much fat especially that fast will cause a drop in testosterone so I would go with the gear to prevent the possible libido issues. as far as what gear I would run a trt dose of test i.e 200/ wk and run tren ace and eq. the trick with test is it is very anabolic but the tren is very anti catabolic couple with the highly androgenic nature of tren will help you hold what you have and fire up the ar receptors in the fat cells. If you can afford var it will help to specifically reduce visceral fat while tren tears up sub q fat. Due to the toxicity of tren I would start eq (short ester) on wk 6 to finish. and except that after your cycle you will gain some fat back is ur bodies survival mechanism.

[tectime]

Your goal is possible. With that basic cycle you have planned and your knowledge of proper diet and exercise as it pertains to you it's very possible. I also went from 225lbs 30% bf to 190lbs 10% bf. I know that takes a lot of knowledge about how your body utilizes the food you eat and I can see from your pic you know how to turn those good cals into muscle. I don't like to drop bf below around 10% myself too little for me but if it's your bag that's cool. I'm no expert either, but these pics tell the tell.

[clarky.]

Since your looking for EXPERT advice as you have stated many times take your own advice because you have did very good so far

[ken9]

No dont worry much about it i have a partner at the gym who is just like you he is married on his 5th cycle he got same hair but he never said he lost an hair but every1 is different he never had even an side effects

[nussnussbaby]

Since your looking for EXPERT advice as you have stated many times take your own advice because you have did very good so far

lol, thanks - - i just know NOTHING about the possibilities w/ gear..

[nussnussbaby]

No dont worry much about it i have a partner at the gym who is just like you he is married on his 5th cycle he got same hair but he never said he lost an hair but every1 is different he never had even an side effects

lol, well that's certainly good news.. but who knows?

[nussnussbaby]

Your goal is possible. With that basic cycle you have planned and your knowledge of proper diet and exercise as it pertains to you it's very possible. I also went from 225lbs 30% bf to 190lbs 10% bf. I know that takes a lot of knowledge about how your body utilizes the food you eat and I can see from your pic you know how to turn those good cals into muscle. I don't like to drop bf below around 10% myself too little for me but if it's your bag that's cool. I'm no expert either, but these pics tell the tell.

Interesting. So you think I can do it? Drop 20lbs and lose no more than 1.7lbs of muscle in 12 weeks?

[nussnussbaby]

I believe your goal is possible but losing that much fat especially that fast will cause a drop in testosterone so I would go with the gear to prevent the possible libido issues. as far as what gear I would run a trt dose of test i.e 200/ wk and run tren ace and eq. the trick with test is it is very anabolic but the tren is very anti catabolic couple with the highly androgenic nature of tren will help you hold what you have and fire up the ar receptors in the fat cells. If you can afford var it will help to specifically reduce visceral fat while tren tears up sub q fat. Due to the toxicity of tren I would start eq (short ester) on wk 6 to finish. and except that after your cycle you will gain some fat back is ur bodies survival mechanism.

Interesting. It's good that you think the plan is do-able. But I'm really still ignorant to all of this stuff - - so investigating beyond the basic recommendations is still a ways away for me.

[nussnussbaby]

Here's another approach I'm considering. Tell me if you think this would be better, easier..

I could drop the 20lbs naturally, as best as possible, probably over 20wks or more (never losing more than 1lb per week).

I bet I could do it well enough that 2/3rds of the weight lost would be fat ~ so that'd put me at about 170lbs, 9%bf (154.9lbs muscle, 15.1lbs fat).

Then, from that point, I could recomp-cycle. Keep my weight at 170, and hope to turn 4.9lbs of fat into muscle.

Thoughts on that plan (verses the other?)

[evander87]

OP I do a lot of cutting on gear but I'm never going to claim to be an expert. I know what aas does to me and what I can do with it. That being said IMHO throw out all those numbers. 170 at 6% do you really know what your body looks like at that stat?

Here's the scoop if you run test it will help you keep muscle while in a calorie deficit. How much? good question as it varies with everyone. Can you lose 12 pounds of fat in 12 weeks? IDK I just peeled off 10 pounds and "2%" in one (I don't ever rely on caliper numbers for ACTUAL body fat but they can show a direction of leaness) That's because I just started my cut and the first weeks are always the most dramatic.

Also cutting is good to start off with a plan like you have but you will hit plateaus and need to change up your plan. IE decrease calories, increase cardio and at some point if you start off too ambitious you will not get the desired results and will be eating next to nothing and living on a damn treadmill. Can you say hello metabolic damage???

For me I've found if I make the smallest changes to break through the plateaus as they come I can very managably get to my desired look. BTW progress pictures are how I judge that I don't care what I weigh and what my body fat is if I like how lean I am at what every size I happen to be. Also if you do decide to use aas and compounds more than just test AKA clen and T3 please save them for the end. They work wonders peeling you from 8% to 6% but aren't as noticeable cutting from 15% to 13%.

[tectime]

Only you can really answer if you can do it. I would say if your tell is true and you've accomplished your goals to date through will power and discipline alone by adding tes done properly You bet! Now theres alot to doing tes properly. Research all you can about tes and it's properties, about estrogen control, as much info as you can creditably back up with real information from reliable sources.

[nussnussbaby]

OP I do a lot of cutting on gear but I'm never going to claim to be an expert. I know what aas does to me and what I can do with it. That being said IMHO throw out all those numbers. 170 at 6% do you really know what your body looks like at that stat?

Here's the scoop if you run test it will help you keep muscle while in a calorie deficit. How much? good question as it varies with everyone. Can you lose 12 pounds of fat in 12 weeks? IDK I just peeled off 10 pounds and "2%" in one (I don't ever rely on caliper numbers for ACTUAL body fat but they can show a direction of leaness) That's because I just started my cut and the first weeks are always the most dramatic.

Also cutting is good to start off with a plan like you have but you will hit plateaus and need to change up your plan. IE decrease calories, increase cardio and at some point if you start off too ambitious you will not get the desired results and will be eating next to nothing and living on a damn treadmill. Can you say hello metabolic damage???

For me I've found if I make the smallest changes to break through the plateaus as they come I can very managably get to my desired look. BTW progress pictures are how I judge that I don't care what I weigh and what my body fat is if I like how lean I am at what every size I happen to be. Also if you do decide to use aas and compounds more than just test AKA clen and T3 please save them for the end. They work wonders peeling you from 8% to 6% but aren't as noticeable cutting from 15% to 13%.

In the entire 13 months I've been training - - losing all that weight - - I didn't do one cardio session. Don't believe in it.

I guess it's just kind of frustrating. Everyone has such different opinions of how it will work or not work. I have no idea how to tell who knows and doesn't know what they're talking about.

I wish a few monitors/moderators would chime in..

[tectime]

Just read your second plan. That will work to. It will just take more time but the road will be easier.

[nussnussbaby]

Thanks man

[nussnussbaby]

Just read your second plan. That will work to. It will just take more time but the road will be easier.

Good to know! What do you think would make it easier? And time isn't so much of an issue ~ I'm in this for the long-haul, for life.

[FRDave]

Going from 30% to 15% is fairly easy assuming you stick to it like you did. Once you get lower in body fat, especially the single digits, it gets extremely hard to shed the fat as mentioned by a few others. I think your best chance is going to be on cycle, but no way is it going to happen in your time frame with no muscle loss.

I personally would take it slow and easy, naturally until you stall. After a few failed attempts of your plateau, I would then look into the cycle, possibly along with T3 like mentioned above.

Best of luck.

[nussnussbaby]

Going from 30% to 15% is fairly easy assuming you stick to it like you did. Once you get lower in body fat, especially the single digits, it gets extremely hard to shed the fat as mentioned by a few others. I think your best chance is going to be on cycle, but no way is it going to happen in your time frame with no muscle loss.

I personally would take it slow and easy, naturally until you stall. After a few failed attempts of your plateau, I would then look into the cycle, possibly along with T3 like mentioned above.

Best of luck.

In the interest of looking good the entire time I'm doing this... perhaps it'd be best to cut down to 170 as best as I can, and then to simply re-comp cycle at that point as many times as I need to until I hit my goal stats?

[tectime]

Easier to lose only one pound a week and healthier. And since time isn't a factor After you lose down to where you can natty adding the muscle in with tes will come easier. It's all about diet. I never do cardio either! Not planning on running anywhere! Like the old bull said to the young one " I'd rather walk down and .... them all! Hahaha best of health to you which ever way you go!

[nussnussbaby]

I'm kind of liking this recomp cycle at 170 idea the more and more I think about it..

[ickythump]

You had mods in your first post, but you didn't hear what you want to hear so you started another...and because I wasn't a mod you ignored my sound advice, and got mostly the same in yet another thread

[sfgiantsfan55]

In the entire 13 months I've been training - - losing all that weight - - I didn't do one cardio session. Don't believe in it.

I guess it's just kind of frustrating. Everyone has such different opinions of how it will work or not work. I have no idea how to tell who knows and doesn't know what they're talking about.

I wish a few monitors/moderators would chime in..

im also NOT an expert.. just curious why you wouldnt do cardio at all? I mean, hell , your heart is a muscle and yes it needs a bit of exercise too.

i know the me that did insanity for 12 weeks could beat the living hell outta the me when i just started the insanity program. it sucks but its well worth it IMO.

ultimately, its the results, and you are apparently getting them , so kudos to you. whatever works!

Good luck

[nussnussbaby]

im also NOT an expert.. just curious why you wouldnt do cardio at all? I mean, hell , your heart is a muscle and yes it needs a bit of exercise too.

i know the me that did insanity for 12 weeks could beat the living hell outta the me when i just started the insanity program. it sucks but its well worth it IMO.

ultimately, its the results, and you are apparently getting them , so kudos to you. whatever works!

Good luck

leangains dot com

[nussnussbaby]

This might be a dumb question, but..

Obviously Testosterone enanthate is illegal.

But what about hCG , Arimidex , Clomid, Nolvadex and N-Acetyl Cysteine. Are these things that are legal to purchase?

[Lunk1]

This might be a dumb question, but..

Obviously Testosterone enanthate is illegal.

But what about hCG, Arimidex, Clomid, Nolvadex and N-Acetyl Cysteine. Are these things that are legal to purchase?

All illegal!

[Lunk1]

I should clarify. The products offered by some research companies are legal to possess but not legal for human consumption (in the US). The prescription version of the drugs would require an RX.

[king6 II]

I should clarify. The products offered by some research companies are legal to possess but not legal for human consumption (in the US). The prescription version of the drugs would require an RX.

This is true. You can obtain research chemicals legally from the sites sponsor for the sole purpose of research. The fact that they come in a variety of delicious flavors is purely coincidental.

[nussnussbaby]

So..

I think my mind's more or less made up. I'm going to cut to 170 as best as I can naturally. Then at that point I'm going to re-comp cycle as many times as is necessary to reach my ultimate goal physique (170lbs, 6%bf).

Time not being a factor. Is there anyone on this board who thinks that isn't the better idea?