Advice for a first cycle

[Mike15]

Hey guys I'm new here and was looking for advice on a first cycle. I've been reading in spots where a lot of people say a test only cycle should be run first although I've seen that everybody doesn't necessarily do this but usually throw dbol into the mix or even other compounds. Thanks for your help.

[MuscleInk]

Hey guys I'm new here and was looking for advice on a first cycle. I've been reading in spots where a lot of people say a test only cycle should be run first although I've seen that everybody doesn't necessarily do this but usually throw dbol into the mix or even other compounds. Thanks for your help.

Welcome Mike.

Please provide your stats (age, height, weight, bf%) training history, and currently daily caloric intake, fitness goals for our members to better understand what we are working with.

[Mike15]

22 years old
6'2"
205lbs
~12% bf
Been training since 17 started taking seriously at 18
Bench - 225x10
Squat - 315x6
Military press seated db - 80s x12
Macros: 450c 220p 90f

[Mike15]

Also currently bulking

[MuscleInk]

Also currently bulking

Thanks Mike. That is helpful. Due to your age, I'll leave this for others to comment at this time. The risks of anabolic compounds at your age are greater than the benefits that could be achieve through nutrition and training alone IMO.

[Mike15]

Alright thanks for the reply anyways! Curious though what risks I will be exposed to that a 30 year old wouldn't be? Due to the fact that all the sides I've seen don't seem to be age dependent and I am willing to deal with those sides.

[MuscleInk]

Alright thanks for the reply anyways! Curious though what risks I will be exposed to that a 30 year old wouldn't be? Due to the fact that all the sides I've seen don't seem to be age dependent and I am willing to deal with those sides.

There is a thread here in the stickies called "The Young and Steroids". I would copy the link for you but I'm connecting from my phone. I highly suggest you read it.

Taking any exogenous steroid will shut down your HTPA and your own natural testosterone production. At 21, your HTPA likely has not reached full maturity so shutting it down now creates an unnecessary risk that your HTPA may not recover fully at a time when your natural testosterone and other hormone levels are peaking as your HTPA reaches it's peak function. Add to this, one you shut down your HTPA, enzymes in your body, called aromatase will try to convert the synthetic testosterone into estradiol as a building block to make your own testosterone. You will need to take additional drugs to prevent this as increasing serum estrogen is a serious health risk in males and HCG to mimic the molecular response in the leydig cells of your testes to prevent them from becoming dormant and atrophying during a cycle as these are also critical in producing your own natural testosterone. Interrupting the HTPA while it is still developing can be more critical than in a male who's HTPA had already reached maturity.

[Mike15]

So when would you full maturity is at 25? Also couldn't I just use an ai on cycle plus isn't atrophy of the testes on cycle a normal thing to happen from what everybody seems to say and then after the cycle they go back to normal or is that wrong? Sorry if you think I'm trying to be condescending or trying to act like a know it all because I don't and that's why I'm here to learn so I'm sorry if these questions make me sound like a dick lol!

[Times Roman]

22 years old
6'2"
205lbs
~12% bf
Been training since 17 started taking seriously at 18
Bench - 225x10
Squat - 315x6
Military press seated db - 80s x12
Macros: 450c 220p 90f

I'll give you a quick tip.

(not enough protein)
redistribute your macros. Bump your protein intake by 100 grams of protein, and offset it primarily by reducing fat and carbs.

do that for six months instead of the drugs and see what happens.

Good luck!
---Roman

[MuscleInk]

I'll give you a quick tip.

(not enough protein)
redistribute your macros. Bump your protein intake by 100 grams of protein, and offset it primarily by reducing fat and carbs.

do that for six months instead of the drugs and see what happens.

Good luck!
---Roman

Good catch boss. Didn't see his macros.

TR speaks the truth.....most of the time

[Mike15]

I'll give you a quick tip.

(not enough protein)
redistribute your macros. Bump your protein intake by 100 grams of protein, and offset it primarily by reducing fat and carbs.

do that for six months instead of the and see what happens.

Good luck!
---Roman

How would this be any different then adding carbs as the bulk which I always have done in the past for the most? Why would it be more beneficial to be eating pretty much 1.5g protein/lb a day vs 1g/lb?

[MuscleInk]

So when would you full maturity is at 25? Also couldn't I just use an ai on cycle plus isn't atrophy of the testes on cycle a normal thing to happen from what everybody seems to say and then after the cycle they go back to normal or is that wrong? Sorry if you think I'm trying to be condescending or trying to act like a know it all because I don't and that's why I'm here to learn so I'm sorry if these questions make me sound like a dick lol!

25 is the number we recommend. Sure you'll experience atrophy. HCG isn't LH, it mimics LH through a similar but not identical pathway.

There are no guarantees after your HTPA is shut down. It's simply not worth the risk at 21. There are a lot of members here your age who rolled the dice and gambled with one well run cycle. Many are on TRT for life and would tell you, "don't risk it, wait".

[Times Roman]

Good catch boss. Didn't see his macros.

TR speaks the truth.....most of the time

what?

you don't believe I'm 32, 6'9" at 432 lbs and 6% body fat?

damn MI.....

[MuscleInk]

what?

you don't believe I'm 32, 6'9" at 432 lbs and 6% body fat?

damn MI.....

Haven't doubted you for a second ya monster.

Those look alot like kel 's stats though, hmmmmmm.

[Mike15]

25 is the number we recommend. Sure you'll experience atrophy. HCG isn't LH, it mimics LH through a similar but not identical pathway.

There are no guarantees after your HTPA is shut down. It's simply not worth the risk at 21. There are a lot of members here your age who rolled the dice and gambled with one well run cycle. Many are on TRT for life and would tell you, "don't risk it, wait".

Wow can this really happen as much as your trying to say it does cause I know plenty of guys my age who are on aas and I've never heard of being completely shutdown after a cycle with it done properly and pct used. Could this also happen if using prohormones because I've used them but don't want to go back since I've learned more in detail about how toxic they are I think injectables would be a better option now over them.
Also if this happens couldn't you just cruise then on test year round? Is TRT expensive and why it's viewed negatively to be put on?

[Times Roman]

How would this be any different then adding carbs as the bulk which I always have done in the past for the most? Why would it be more beneficial to be eating pretty much 1.5g protein/lb a day vs 1g/lb?

in this lifestyle, compared to regular Joe six pack and dorritos that walks down the street, our minimum protein requirement is considerably higher than normal.

As a result, it is recommend you include a MINIMUM 1.5grams of protein per pound of lean body mass. When you lift, you are actually degrading muscle fiber. And it needs to be repaired. Hence the higher protein requirement. So say you are 180lbm. this means you would need at a very minimum 270 grams of protein. However, if you are eating at TDEE, we observe a macro distribution of 40/40/20. Some tweak it here and there, but it's generally where most start. What we do NOT do is to say, ok, my TDEE is 3,200 cals/day, and therefore I will only eat the minimum 270 grams of protein which would be 1080 cals and the remaining 2,120 cals on fat and carb. Although carbs are necessary, as it is the fuel that drives intensity in the gym and quite often mood (so you don't feel tired and grumpy), you do not want an excessive amount of carbs, as it is easily stored as fat when not utilized for energy. And you don't want all the excess dumped in fat either. So by increasing protein beyond the minimum, you are trying to "tease" additional muscle fiber growth, something you cannot do with either fat or carbs. By eating only the minimum in protein, you also run the risk of having gaps or periods of protein insufficiency. Protein is not as easily converted to fat as carbs. And about the stress excess protein causes the kidneys. if this risk were as real as the medical community would have you believe, then kidney damage would be a "fact of life" to this community. We do not typically discuss kidney issues, since it's really not a problem. We do discuss liver damage, as this is something that can happen when overly reliant on oral AAS.

Hope this clears up some of the "mystery' of why we need the protein at the levels we do.

Now, back to my original recommendation....

...bump your grams of protein by about 100 grams. Do that for six months and see what happens.

Good luck (again)
---Roman

[MuscleInk]

Wow can this really happen as much as your trying to say it does cause I know plenty of guys my age who are on aas and I've never heard of being completely shutdown after a cycle with it done properly and pct used. Could this also happen if using prohormones because I've used them but don't want to go back since I've learned more in detail about how toxic they are I think injectables would be a better option now over them.
Also if this happens couldn't you just cruise then on test year round? Is TRT expensive and why it's viewed negatively to be put on?

Unless you've seen their blood work, you can't simply believe them. Moreover, how many guys do you know run around the gym advertising their erectile dysfunction? It's not something any man I know of would be proud enough to discuss openly.

I'd happily trade you my TRT for the rest of my life for your healthy natural levels of testosterone.

It's not so much a factor of cost Mike, rather inconvenience and the other factors you have to watch for with TRT (hypertension, hyperlipidemia, hypercholesterolemia, frequent blood work, possible PSA changes, etc.)

A diabetic may not complain about the cost of insulin, but rest assurd, given the choice, I'm sure most would rather not be dependent on insulin to maintain healthy blood glucose levels.

[MuscleInk]

in this lifestyle, compared to regular Joe six pack and dorritos that walks down the street, our minimum protein requirement is considerably higher than normal.

As a result, it is recommend you include a MINIMUM 1.5grams of protein per pound of lean body mass. When you lift, you are actually degrading muscle fiber. And it needs to be repaired. Hence the higher protein requirement. So say you are 180lbm. this means you would need at a very minimum 270 grams of protein. However, if you are eating at TDEE, we observe a macro distribution of 40/40/20. Some tweak it here and there, but it's generally where most start. What we do NOT do is to say, ok, my TDEE is 3,200 cals/day, and therefore I will only eat the minimum 270 grams of protein which would be 1080 cals and the remaining 2,120 cals on fat and carb. Although carbs are necessary, as it is the fuel that drives intensity in the gym and quite often mood (so you don't feel tired and grumpy), you do not want an excessive amount of carbs, as it is easily stored as fat when not utilized for energy. And you don't want all the excess dumped in fat either. So by increasing protein beyond the minimum, you are trying to "tease" additional muscle fiber growth, something you cannot do with either fat or carbs. By eating only the minimum in protein, you also run the risk of having gaps or periods of protein insufficiency. Protein is not as easily converted to fat as carbs. And about the stress excess protein causes the kidneys. if this risk were as real as the medical community would have you believe, then kidney damage would be a "fact of life" to this community. We do not typically discuss kidney issues, since it's really not a problem. We do discuss liver damage, as this is something that can happen when overly reliant on oral AAS.

Hope this clears up some of the "mystery' of why we need the protein at the levels we do.

Now, back to my original recommendation....

...bump your grams of protein by about 100 grams. Do that for six months and see what happens.

Good luck (again)
---Roman

TR is a damn nutritional genius but too modest to admit it.

Gain are made in the kitchen. If you don't feed the growth, you sure as heck will NEVER keep it and steroids won't prevent muscle loss if the food isn't there.

[Mike15]

TR is a damn nutritional genius but too modest to admit it.

Gain are made in the kitchen. If you don't feed the growth, you sure as heck will NEVER keep it and steroids won't prevent muscle loss if the food isn't there.

I understand now thanks. So do you guys believe prohormones would then be a better option of the two then since my age is factoring in?

[Times Roman]

I understand now thanks. So do you guys believe prohormones would then be a better option of the two then since my age is factoring in?

No. I believe that you need to master your nutritional goals first. No matter what you do or take, if you do not eat properly, with sufficient protein and calories, you will not be able to retain your gains.

Learn to eat mate.

Go to the nutritional section and post like I asked you earlier.

[Mike15]

Unless you've seen their blood work, you can't simply believe them. Moreover, how many guys do you know run around the gym advertising their erectile dysfunction? It's not something any man I know of would be proud enough to discuss openly.

I'd happily trade you my TRT for the rest of my life for your healthy natural levels of testosterone.

It's not so much a factor of cost Mike, rather inconvenience and the other factors you have to watch for with TRT (hypertension, hyperlipidemia, hypercholesterolemia, frequent blood work, possible PSA changes, etc.)

A diabetic may not complain about the cost of insulin, but rest assurd, given the choice, I'm sure most would rather not be dependent on insulin to maintain healthy blood glucose levels.

Wouldn't a serm like Nolva,clomid, or torem stop hpta shutdown?

[MuscleInk]

I understand now thanks. So do you guys believe prohormones would then be a better option of the two then since my age is factoring in?

No, never.

[Mike15]

No, never.

I've already done a few ph cycles and I don't think I'll stop but I thought this would be a safer alternative even though it is illegal.

[MuscleInk]

No. I believe that you need to master your nutritional goals first. No matter what you do or take, if you do not eat properly, with sufficient protein and calories, you will not be able to retain your gains.

Learn to eat mate.

Go to the nutritional section and post like I asked you earlier.

Mike,

You are getting great advice from a leader on this forum and someone who has achieved the success you are looking for. He's volunteered great advice and won't steer you wrong. At the very least, and out of respect for the time he' putting in to your thread, please acknowledge his posts and do yourself a favor, visit the nutrition section. You will make great gains committing to eating properly and maximizing your own natural testosterone production.

I'm off to get my back and bicep work out in for the evening.

Best of luck and give TR's suggestion a deep dive into the nutrition forum. This guy knows what it takes to succeed and be a champ in this lifestyle. He walks the walk and has helped more members than many have. He knows what he's talking about!!!

Best of luck.

[Mike15]

Mike,

You are getting great advice from a leader on this forum and someone who has achieved the success you are looking for. He's volunteered great advice and won't steer you wrong. At the very least, and out of respect for the time he' putting in to your thread, please acknowledge his posts and do yourself a favor, visit the nutrition section. You will make great gains committing to eating properly and maximizing your own natural testosterone production.

I'm off to get my back and bicep work out in for the evening.

Best of luck and give TR's suggestion a deep dive into the nutrition forum. This guy knows what it takes to succeed and be a champ in this lifestyle. He walks the walk and has helped more members than many have. He knows what he's talking about!!!

Best of luck.

I feel like it might be a little tough to get down a whole 100grams of protein down but I'll do it if you guys think that's what will be best for me. You guys got any tips on how to get that much down I have no worries with kidney issues I know a lot of bodybuilders 400-600 grams of protein a day they eat. It's just everywhere I've read for natural bodybuilding it's only ever been recommended to me to eat 1gram/lb of body weight of protein by pretty much everywhere I've ever looked and have started to see some articles that have shown studies that even only .82grams/lb of body weight is just as beneficial. So it's all just really confusing to me over these years through my research because very hating is so contradictory in this sport.

[Mike15]

Also go crush the back and bi workout!!! Thanks for your help I really appreciate it definitely learned a lot so far!