Second Cycle Advice: Test-E, Dianabol and Anavar + Raloxifene Query

[ck1801]

Hi guys, I know there is a lot of information on this and I have done a fair amount of reading on this particular cycle which has had a very mixed reviews with people claiming it to be pointless to use Dianabol and Anavar in the same cycle. I have done my best to educate myself as much as possible before coming on here and asking the question, but forgive me if there are any rookie errors.

I have a few queries to raise on just understanding why or why not this would be a successful cycle, but before I do I will show my intended plan.

This will be my second cycle after an introductory cycle of Test-E at 500mg once a week for 10 weeks.

I have heard mixed opinions on whether it is more beneficial to split Test injections to 250mg twice a week or the 500mg once a week. Can anyone shed any experiences on their preferred way and why?

I have also read that taking an AI during cycle particularly Dianabol will help keep a bit of excess water and gyno at bay. I have heard Aromasin the best choice for this but that it is pretty hard to get hold of so if I can't is 0.25mg Arimidex an equally good trade off? (All PCT will be bought before anything else so priority is fully understanding AI for during cycle and best PCT)

Week 1- 12: Test-E 500mg, Aromasin 12.5mg e/d
Week 1 - 4: Dianabol 25mg, Aromasin 12.5mg e/d
Week 6 - 12: Anavar 50mg, Aromasin 12.5mg e/d

Week 15-16: Nolvadex 40mg, Clomid 50mg e/d
Week 17: Nolvadex 20mg, Clomid 25mg e/d

(Is the combo of Nolva and Clomid necessary? Again, I have heard a mixed bag of opinions on their effectiveness together or would staying on Aromasin be a better choice over the Clomid?

I have also heard of Raloxifene as I highly regarded SERM to be taken during cycle alongside Aromasin in order to combat any chance of gyno sneaking in. Is this true or am I being too cautious and wasting money?

Now, a quick overview of my calorie intake and body profile..

22yrs old
187lbs
12% bf

I'm pretty solid with my diet and am a personal trainer so fortunately can factor in my own meal timings pretty well so diet itself if not too much of a problem. My macro split will be 40/40/20 throughout (cannot/will not go without my precious carbs) consisting of clean foods with a couple of cheats thrown in a week but nothing too extreme.

I'd naturally be called an 'endomorph' so I'm able to put on weight pretty easily without too many excess calories but am currently increasing my calories 100 per week until I reach 3000 and will remain on that until I begin taking the anavar whereby I will begin reducing my calories by 200 per week monitoring until I begin losing approx 1lb per week max.
Again this is where I am looking for advice as people have said this method would be pointless, however I am of the opinion that slowly decreasing my calories after the Dianabol cycle will allow a very slow cut that would minimise my muscle loss in the process, am I being ridiculous and missing something with this idea or not?

I know I have asked a lot of questions and this thread is not particularly original but it's just these little specific queries that I cannot seem to clarify and would appreciate any help I could get.

Cheers guys.

[itsjayman02]

Hi guys, I know there is a lot of information on this and I have done a fair amount of reading on this particular cycle which has had a very mixed reviews with people claiming it to be pointless to use Dianabol and Anavar in the same cycle. I have done my best to educate myself as much as possible before coming on here and asking the question, but forgive me if there are any rookie errors.

I have a few queries to raise on just understanding why or why not this would be a successful cycle, but before I do I will show my intended plan.

This will be my second cycle after an introductory cycle of Test-E at 500mg once a week for 10 weeks.

I have heard mixed opinions on whether it is more beneficial to split Test injections to 250mg twice a week or the 500mg once a week. Can anyone shed any experiences on their preferred way and why?

I have also read that taking an AI during cycle particularly Dianabol will help keep a bit of excess water and gyno at bay. I have heard Aromasin the best choice for this but that it is pretty hard to get hold of so if I can't is 0.25mg Arimidex an equally good trade off? (All PCT will be bought before anything else so priority is fully understanding AI for during cycle and best PCT)

Week 1- 12: Test-E 500mg, Aromasin 12.5mg e/d
Week 1 - 4: Dianabol 25mg, Aromasin 12.5mg e/d
Week 6 - 12: Anavar 50mg, Aromasin 12.5mg e/d

Week 15-16: Nolvadex 40mg, Clomid 50mg e/d
Week 17: Nolvadex 20mg, Clomid 25mg e/d

(Is the combo of Nolva and Clomid necessary? Again, I have heard a mixed bag of opinions on their effectiveness together or would staying on Aromasin be a better choice over the Clomid?

I have also heard of Raloxifene as I highly regarded SERM to be taken during cycle alongside Aromasin in order to combat any chance of gyno sneaking in. Is this true or am I being too cautious and wasting money?

Now, a quick overview of my calorie intake and body profile..

22yrs old
187lbs
12% bf

I'm pretty solid with my diet and am a personal trainer so fortunately can factor in my own meal timings pretty well so diet itself if not too much of a problem. My macro split will be 40/40/20 throughout (cannot/will not go without my precious carbs) consisting of clean foods with a couple of cheats thrown in a week but nothing too extreme.

I'd naturally be called an 'endomorph' so I'm able to put on weight pretty easily without too many excess calories but am currently increasing my calories 100 per week until I reach 3000 and will remain on that until I begin taking the anavar whereby I will begin reducing my calories by 200 per week monitoring until I begin losing approx 1lb per week max.
Again this is where I am looking for advice as people have said this method would be pointless, however I am of the opinion that slowly decreasing my calories after the Dianabol cycle will allow a very slow cut that would minimise my muscle loss in the process, am I being ridiculous and missing something with this idea or not?

I know I have asked a lot of questions and this thread is not particularly original but it's just these little specific queries that I cannot seem to clarify and would appreciate any help I could get.

Cheers guys.

In a nutshell your too young so giving advice on dosage and pct is irrelevant!!

My First Cycle: Planning and Executing a Successful First Cycle

[ck1801]

I do appreciate your opinion but I fail to see how gaining some knowledge and understanding is irrelevant in any way, regardless of whether I choose to do the cycle or not..

[RigPig]

I do appreciate your opinion but I fail to see how gaining some knowledge and understanding is irrelevant in any way, regardless of whether I choose to do the cycle or not..

Because some folks do not want to participate in giving you the knowledge to screw yourself up.
If you want to gain knowledge start by reading the stickies, after that scan through this section and check out the thousands of posts just like yours.
You are going to cycle anyway, I'll bet money on that, but you have to understand responsible people here will not support your choice to do so.

[ck1801]

You know what, fair enough.. I came here asking for advice, you guys gave it and so I'm going to listen to it. No bullshit, I will go away, do some more research for a year or two so in a couple of years I'll be developed and won't need to come and ask these questions! Cheers guys, will carry on researching and then, when the time comes I will come on and document my experiences

[zempey]

You don't have to go away just because you aren't going to cycle right now. This is a good community here and becoming a part of it will aid in your gaining of knowledge. Stick around, learn, contribute, knowledge is more than just reading some sticky's.

[ck1801]

Thanks, I've taken the advice on board! Time to get to learning!

[marcus300]

There isn't an exact age were we all stop developing and growing because this is determined by our genes and DNA, we are all genetically programmed individually and we inherit our genes from our parents. To give an exact age we stop growing would be incorrect because everyone's genetic blueprint is different.The main development of our bodies is up to the age of 21yrs of age but this can vary between individuals. There are parts of our bodies what carry on developing and adjusting slowly up until the age of 25yrs old, an example of this is the brain. The Endocrine system is a part of the brain what is very complex and keeps our bodies in a homeostasis state. Our testosterone levels start raising and roughly peak around 25yrs old and then start to slowly decline, so even though some of us may have stopped growing at the age of 21yrs old, others may still be developing up until the age of 25yrs old.

I have recently spoken to my Endo regarding this matter and he tells me that the HPTA is very sensitive and as many pathways how it regulates the human body, he states steroids disrupt the normal balance of hormones in the body which can cause reversible and irreversible changes at any age but risks are far more if you administrate exogenous androgens during development, this will put you in a very unnatural environment at a crucial time and your hormones should be treated with care especially in the early stages of maturity. The adverse effects can be erratic behaviour of the HPTA and potentially therapy when your older.

I did ask him what age he would think would be the safest as far as risk to damages and he said many endocrinologist suggest full maturation is reached by 25 years of age and this would also give the HPTA time to be established with your natural hormone balance and patterns. I personally feel 24-25yrs old would also be ideal starting point to get bloodwrok drawn to see exact what your natural levels are before starting any kind of cycles and waiting till you have reach your testosterone peak would be a good starting point, for me there is to much evidence over the forums and what I've seen personally over the last 25yrs I've been bodybuilding. Obviously it isn't going to be all 19- 21yr old bodybuilders who suffer side effects what are irreversible but I am edging on the side of caution what age I advice to the newbies.
Marcus

[marcus300]

AGE
In humans your Endocrine system is not fully functional until an average age of 25yrs, although the main development is up to around 21yrs it still fluctuates a little bit up to its fully functional age. There is a risk of permanently damaging your HPTA if you take AAS to young and you could end up with symptoms of andropause and HRT for life. Symptoms could be Limp dick, low libido, depression, low energy, low endurance, erection problems and many more but.......are these the types of symptoms you want to have in your 20's?. Believe me its hard to cope with these in your 40's yet alone in your prime of your life.

Around this age your Testosterone levels are the highest they going to be in your life naturally, so use what you have and don't take the risk of damage, I am passionate about this because ive seen it many times with young kids wanting to looking like their heroes and they think the answer is in an injection/tablet.

Taking AAS to young can also cause problems with development, one other main problem is premature sealing of your epiphyeal bone and the consequences mean that you wont grow as big as your genetics could allow you to, there is a test which can be done to see if your growth plates have sealed yet but the average age is around 21yrs old.



TRAINING
You need a few years of hard training under your belt before even considering taking any kind of anabolic support, people who jump on a cycle to soon without having some quality years under their belt usually results in injuries, it takes time to develop your connective tissue, tendons and nervous system to heavy overload training. Slowly getting your own system use to these kinds of extreme's will only help in muscle growth later on when you do decide to start taking AAS.

Build a solid foundation for muscle tissue to grow and maintaining and development will be far greater than without it. Many younger guys will start cycling before they have reached their genetic potential which is crazy when a good solid diet and training program will be far beneficial and productive to muscle building.

Workouts should be mainly focused on basic movements with a priority of over loading the muscle each and ever time you train, increasing your strength and ability to lift in proper form will help with building the foundation for future development


DIET
A lot of younger bodybuilders don't know how to eat. Researching and understanding how your own body responds will help you get to your natural limit, the right food at the right time and a full understanding of proteins,carbs, and fats will only help you succeed in achieving your natural goals. Keeping a diet diary will also help you understand the importance of macro, nutrients, calories and should help you see in which areas you could be going wrong in adding lean muscle tissue.

No matter how much anabolic support you have it will be worthless without proper nutrition, food will help build and maintain your valued muscle weather its natural, cycling or in PCT. Adjusting your food intake and consuming muscle building foods coupled with a solid training program will help you achieve your natural limit and foundation before you start AAS use.

This area is a huge problem with the younger guys and I can't express enough how important diet/food is when first starting out, post and pre training nutrition are very important and understanding how to load and feed the body will help push growth and create a very natural anabolic environment.

[zempey]

Some very good detailed advice right there.