Estrogen hinder gains

[Obs]

Show me some data that would suggest high estrogen hinders muscle gain.

[Obs]

And dont give me a fucking natty study of guys with low test or even high normal. I am on enough shit to grow a moustache on a whale. How is high estrogen gonna hinder gains.

Just a question. I have no bias or give a shit one way or the other.

[hollowedzeus]

I dont think it hinders muscle gain but its very unhealthy and i would rather recieve less gains and keep estrogen in check personally

[Dannyboy51577]

Ya know what Obs, I was just having this conversation recently. Im not bias either way either, but wanted some good facts and data, so im gonna do what i can to research and see whats out there. Ive always been told that estrogen in high normal was a good thing, but too high out of range killed gains. Honestly not sure if thats accurate or bro science. Im actually experimenting on myself now.

I usually only need a small amount of ai once or twice a week, if at all. I dropped my ai about 2 months ago. I dont get sides of any kind regardless of how high it gets so it gets hard for me to tell how high it actually is til i pull blood again. But i will say, just from my eye test, it seems my gains have slowed in the last 3-4 wks. Ive been hitting super hard at gym, and seeing very very slow progress. So i started back on my ai yesterday, gonna watch close in the next 4-6 wks and see what my eyes tell me.

But any other info we can cone up with, i think would make for a really good discussion

[geezuschrist]

Obs I grew a clit with high estrogen. I got titties hanging to my knees

[cousinmuscles]

It may increase IGF1 a little (assuming naturally produced estradiol works the same way as topical, which I think I have read before, but oral estrogen can have opposite e but if you use nolvadex it will be more than negated.) https://academic.oup.com/edrv/article/25/5/693/2355205 But people don't report small increases in IGF1 to do anything in terms of gains.

The feedback inhibition and increased IGF production of high estrogen can be pronounced with a triple stack of GHRP, GHRH and infused somatostatin and there is a study done on this specifically, and they used exogenous test to make for conversion to E2.

The above sentence sounds cool if you like to hang on to the balls of e.g. GH and cheer for him and his fake avatar. Why? because it is a stupid idea which nobody would do in real life. For one you'll feel like crap. You'll be walking around bloated, with high blood pressure. You'll increase risk of heart attacks and increase the risks of blood clots forming. So yeah if you have never done a cycle or even lift but want to sound cool on a forum you can claim high estrogen works. (GH didn't know about that study though and though high estrogen alone increases IGF...). If anyone claims high estrogen works then just show them data that estrogen works against free testosterone since it binds to the androgen receptor.

[Obs]

It may increase IGF1 a little (assuming naturally produced estradiol works the same way as topical, which I think I have read before, but oral estrogen can have opposite e but if you use nolvadex it will be more than negated.) https://academic.oup.com/edrv/article/25/5/693/2355205 But people don't report small increases in IGF1 to do anything in terms of gains.

The feedback inhibition and increased IGF production of high estrogen can be pronounced with a triple stack of GHRP, GHRH and infused somatostatin and there is a study done on this specifically, and they used exogenous test to make for conversion to E2.

The above sentence sounds cool if you like to hang on to the balls of e.g. GH and cheer for him and his fake avatar. Why? because it is a stupid idea which nobody would do in real life. For one you'll feel like crap. You'll be walking around bloated, with high blood pressure. You'll increase risk of heart attacks and increase the risks of blood clots forming. So yeah if you have never done a cycle or even lift but want to sound cool on a forum you can claim high estrogen works. (GH didn't know about that study though and though high estrogen alone increases IGF...). If anyone claims high estrogen works then just show them data that estrogen works against free testosterone since it binds to the androgen receptor.

Does high estrogen hinder gains?

Gh was a cocksucker but not for reasons regarding the bullshit that went down on here in public.
Thats also not why he is gone.

[cousinmuscles]

Does high estrogen hinder gains?

Gh was a cocksucker but not for reasons regarding the bullshit that went down on here in public.
Thats also not why he is gone.

Does bad health hinder gains? Does feeling like crap hinder gains? If not, well, it doesn't add any more gains, so why would you want it. Anadrol leads to better gains for me but hinders training due to cramps, imagine if it didn't lead to more gains, there wouldn't be any reason to use it.

Yes GH did post a ton of crap from some outdated anabolic reference guide with no references

[geezuschrist]

GearHeaded is gone??

[Obs]

Does bad health hinder gains? Does feeling like crap hinder gains? If not, well, it doesn't add any more gains, so why would you want it. Anadrol leads to better gains for me but hinders training due to cramps, imagine if it didn't lead to more gains, there wouldn't be any reason to use it.

Yes GH did post a ton of crap from some outdated anabolic reference guide with no references

I think I dont like anadrol so much either.

What I am saying is point to a reference.
I see no studies on it only bro science... And I know you cant stand that bro science.

[Obs]

GearHeaded is gone??

No, he is just gonna be real quiet on here forever or Marcus is gonna give me his address and I am gonna visit him.

[cousinmuscles]

I already did

It may increase IGF1 a little (assuming naturally produced estradiol works the same way as topical, which I think I have read before, but oral estrogen can have opposite e but if you use nolvadex it will be more than negated.) https://academic.oup.com/edrv/article/25/5/693/2355205 But people don't report small increases in IGF1 to do anything in terms of gains.

The feedback inhibition and increased IGF production of high estrogen can be pronounced with a triple stack of GHRP, GHRH and infused somatostatin and there is a study done on this specifically, and they used exogenous test to make for conversion to E2.

The above sentence sounds cool if you like to hang on to the balls of e.g. GH and cheer for him and his fake avatar. Why? because it is a stupid idea which nobody would do in real life. For one you'll feel like crap. You'll be walking around bloated, with high blood pressure. You'll increase risk of heart attacks and increase the risks of blood clots forming. So yeah if you have never done a cycle or even lift but want to sound cool on a forum you can claim high estrogen works. (GH didn't know about that study though and though high estrogen alone increases IGF...). If anyone claims high estrogen works then just show them data that estrogen works against free testosterone since it binds to the androgen receptor.

Regarding estrogen competing with free testosterone ,
https://forums.steroid.com/before-yo...ould-know.html

Why it Matters

There are basically two very important reasons that we need to care about Estradiol.

The first is that Estradiol is a powerful Testosterone receptor antagonist. What this means to us men is that Estradiol creates a very strong bond to the Androgen Receptors of Testosterone and renders them useless.

However, when testosterone binds to an Androgen Receptor, it activates that receptor and we get the physiological effects we're all looking for. Now, when Estradiol binds to that same receptor it blocks Testosterone from binding, yet it does not activate the receptor, so in short nothing happens.

This means that if your Estradiol serum level is high, no matter how much exogenous testosterone you take it isn't going to help you as it should because too many of your androgen receptors are now blocked by Estradiol and your Free Testosterone has nowhere to go.

Exogenous Testosterone can't do you any good if it doesn't have receptors available to activate…simple enough.

Now, things can get worse believe it or not... some believe that elevated levels of Estradiol can cause the down regulation of Androgen Receptors. What this potentially means is that your body may respond to higher levels of Estradiol by creating fewer Androgen Receptors as cells are replaced in a normal regeneration cycle.

So, not only does Estradiol block the available Androgen Receptors as noted, it may cause your body to produce fewer of them in the future!

[Obs]

I already did

Regarding estrogen competing with free testosterone ,
https://forums.steroid.com/before-yo...ould-know.html

But on nolva? Does the same occour? I know you mentioned it before

[Obs]

And I am not arguing.
I am simply trying to talk myself into AI.

I actually ate .75 mg between yesterday and today.

I truly dont feel it is possible for me to make more progress any faster than I do by any mechanism that wont kill me in ten years but I am curious about whether I should bother with AI at all. I dont get the sides others do.

[cousinmuscles]

But on nolva? Does the same occour? I know you mentioned it before

I mentioned nolva lowering IGF1. So a small increase in IGF1 from higher estrogen is negated by nolva since it lowers IGF1. Aha, you want a source, of course, think I just pull this stuff out of my ass, lol... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1421427 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11299809 Since it acts as an antiestrogen on the liver, where IGF1 is produced, it inhibits the production of it.

[Obs]

I mentioned nolva lowering IGF1. So a small increase in IGF1 from higher estrogen is negated by nolva since it lowers IGF1. Aha, you want a source, of course, think I just pull this stuff out of my ass, lol... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1421427 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11299809 Since it acts as an antiestrogen on the liver, where IGF1 is produced, it inhibits the production of it.

No I trusted what you said before. I phrased my question improperly.

I mean if you are on nolva during cycle does estrogen still compete for testosterone receptors?

[Obs]

This also brings up something I have never looked into or gave a shit about that I should.
Igf-1.....

I never paid a lick of attention to it.
On insulin but never bothered with igf-1. Kinda dumb I suppose.

[Dannyboy51577]

It may increase IGF1 a little (assuming naturally produced estradiol works the same way as topical, which I think I have read before, but oral estrogen can have opposite e but if you use nolvadex it will be more than negated.) https://academic.oup.com/edrv/article/25/5/693/2355205 But people don't report small increases in IGF1 to do anything in terms of gains.

The feedback inhibition and increased IGF production of high estrogen can be pronounced with a triple stack of GHRP, GHRH and infused somatostatin and there is a study done on this specifically, and they used exogenous test to make for conversion to E2.

The above sentence sounds cool if you like to hang on to the balls of e.g. GH and cheer for him and his fake avatar. Why? because it is a stupid idea which nobody would do in real life. For one you'll feel like crap. You'll be walking around bloated, with high blood pressure. You'll increase risk of heart attacks and increase the risks of blood clots forming. So yeah if you have never done a cycle or even lift but want to sound cool on a forum you can claim high estrogen works. (GH didn't know about that study though and though high estrogen alone increases IGF...). If anyone claims high estrogen works then just show them data that estrogen works against free testosterone since it binds to the androgen receptor.

Yeah its most likely the case that estrogen at really high levels hinders gains. But the thing is, like obs first post, i still like to look into this stuff. I was out of the game for a while. When i came back in, there was so much bro science that i never heard of, and alot of which made no sense to me. Alot of it still doesnt. But its preached like gospel around the damn internet and chat rooms, forums, etc.

GH went overboard with some of the things he said. I prefer to speak from experience, and even if its not science trial backed evidence, i will believe my own eyes over anything i ever read on the internet. Which is why i am always up to try something, no matter how stupid it may sound, or how futile the effort. Then in my head, im believing myself versus something i read.

So, im trying the idea of high estrogen hindering gains myself. Although im not gonna pull blood 4 times in a couple months to test the theory, im not doing it as a science based experiment, im doing it for my own info. I know my e2 is through the roof right now-i came off my deca run about 4 or 5 wks ago, dropped my ai about 6 wks ago, and still runnin 700mg/wk prop. I saw slow but steady gains up until about 2 wks ago. Then they seemed to have stopped almost altogether. I have been hittin it pretty hard, increased sets, good recovery times, etc, not all too different than my previous work, just increased a bit.
I dont get any sides whatsoever from high e so its a bit easier for me to do.
So started back on ai 4 days ago, gonna run .5 adex for 4 days then go back to .25 eod from there on, and see when it appears that things change. Then ill pull blood and see what levels look like at that point. If for no other reason, i will know for myself how it effects me, rathe than assume it affects me a certain way based in internet garbage, and have an idea first hand of the scale it affects my gains.

[cousinmuscles]

No I trusted what you said before. I phrased my question improperly.

I mean if you are on nolva during cycle does estrogen still compete for testosterone receptors?

Well nolvadex doesn't lower serum estrogen, meaning all the estrogen in your blood. It just blocks estrogen receptors in some tissues. There is nothing saying it does anything to the androgen receptor either. So whatever estrogen does on the androgen receptor it will do when nolvadex is used too.

Haven't read how much (to which degree) estrogen negates free testosterone , nor any real comparisons using an AI/no AI with test cycles... I don't get gyno but wouldn't even try a full cycle.

[Dannyboy51577]

And I am not arguing.
I am simply trying to talk myself into AI.

I actually ate .75 mg between yesterday and today.

I truly dont feel it is possible for me to make more progress any faster than I do by any mechanism that wont kill me in ten years but I am curious about whether I should bother with AI at all. I dont get the sides others do.

Obs, im the same, estrogen doesnr bother me, and i dont run much of an ai if any most of the time. Maybe a .25 or .5 a week sometimes, sometimes none. But im curious the same on gains, esoecially since i saw mine almost stop altogether recently. So once i get done with my little self experimentation, ill let you know how it worked on me, hopefully helps

[cousinmuscles]

Yeah its most likely the case that estrogen at really high levels hinders gains. But the thing is, like obs first post, i still like to look into this stuff. I was out of the game for a while. When i came back in, there was so much bro science that i never heard of, and alot of which made no sense to me. Alot of it still doesnt. But its preached like gospel around the damn internet and chat rooms, forums, etc.

GH went overboard with some of the things he said. I prefer to speak from experience, and even if its not science trial backed evidence, i will believe my own eyes over anything i ever read on the internet. Which is why i am always up to try something, no matter how stupid it may sound, or how futile the effort. Then in my head, im believing myself versus something i read.

So, im trying the idea of high estrogen hindering gains myself. Although im not gonna pull blood 4 times in a couple months to test the theory, im not doing it as a science based experiment, im doing it for my own info. I know my e2 is through the roof right now-i came off my deca run about 4 or 5 wks ago, dropped my ai about 6 wks ago, and still runnin 700mg/wk prop. I saw slow but steady gains up until about 2 wks ago. Then they seemed to have stopped almost altogether. I have been hittin it pretty hard, increased sets, good recovery times, etc, not all too different than my previous work, just increased a bit.
I dont get any sides whatsoever from high e so its a bit easier for me to do.
So started back on ai 4 days ago, gonna run .5 adex for 4 days then go back to .25 eod from there on, and see when it appears that things change. Then ill pull blood and see what levels look like at that point. If for no other reason, i will know for myself how it effects me, rathe than assume it affects me a certain way based in internet garbage, and have an idea first hand of the scale it affects my gains.

Just some advice from my personal experience, the AAS won't work as good if you don't drop down to TRT/PCT. Actually it's the same for any real person I have asked. I'd drop down to TRT, resensitize and restart later to compare results.

I did try no AI on my first cycle, I lasted 6 weeks and a little more, when the test kicked in I had a moonface, looked like another person, and horrible cystic acne, blood pressure high, testicles aching. Test + anadrol only got my BP up 15 points systolic, high estrogen got it up 30pts lol!

[cousinmuscles]

Well nolvadex doesn't lower serum estrogen, meaning all the estrogen in your blood. It just blocks estrogen receptors in some tissues. There is nothing saying it does anything to the androgen receptor either. So whatever estrogen does on the androgen receptor it will do when nolvadex is used too.

Haven't read how much (to which degree) estrogen negates free testosterone, nor any real comparisons using an AI/no AI with test cycles... I don't get gyno but wouldn't even try a full cycle.

Correction: I don't know about that. It seems it does in some tissue like in the prostate.

[Obs]

Well nolvadex doesn't lower serum estrogen, meaning all the estrogen in your blood. It just blocks estrogen receptors in some tissues. There is nothing saying it does anything to the androgen receptor either. So whatever estrogen does on the androgen receptor it will do when nolvadex is used too.

Haven't read how much (to which degree) estrogen negates free testosterone, nor any real comparisons using an AI/no AI with test cycles... I don't get gyno but wouldn't even try a full cycle.

Obs, im the same, estrogen doesnr bother me, and i dont run much of an ai if any most of the time. Maybe a .25 or .5 a week sometimes, sometimes none. But im curious the same on gains, esoecially since i saw mine almost stop altogether recently. So once i get done with my little self experimentation, ill let you know how it worked on me, hopefully helps

Just say this in one and respond to both. Thanks.

I have ran AI somewhat regularly before a couple times. It definitely held off my gyno lump for a while. As dosages of aas increased i found it wouldnt phase my gyno lump in the right nipple. I keep it knocked down with nolva on cycle.

As far as hindering gains... In me I can't imagine it.
If it does undoubtedly my ass will be on AI for the duration of my life.

I am ceasing training my delts because they have taken over my body and tied my family up and held them hostage.

My delts will need no effort to class in the ifbb. The rest of me needs work bad.

If I am pissing away gains walking around with 10x the normal estrogen levels I really want to get on ai again but I really havent noticed much difference in the gains department regardless of high or low.

[Dannyboy51577]

Just say this in one and respond to both. Thanks.

I have ran AI somewhat regularly before a couple times. It definitely held off my gyno lump for a while. As dosages of aas increased i found it wouldnt phase my gyno lump in the right nipple. I keep it knocked down with nolva on cycle.

As far as hindering gains... In me I can't imagine it.
If it does undoubtedly my ass will be on AI for the duration of my life.

I am ceasing training my delts because they have taken over my body and tied my family up and held them hostage.

My delts will need no effort to class in the ifbb. The rest of me needs work bad.

If I am pissing away gains walking around with 10x the normal estrogen levels I really want to get on ai again but I really havent noticed much difference in the gains department regardless of high or low.

Same here obs, ive never soent i rep on my front delts but they seem to take over everything. I didnt see a difference in myself either until just recently, but im looking to see if thats estrogen related or just maybe a lull. I figure it will take me maybe 3 wks or so for my levels to get back down to normal range, then i will see if i feel or notice any difference in how i develop. Currently focusing on chest, as that seems to be my most lagging, so gonna measure how i gain and look off ai versus when my levels are normal. If i can feel or see a difference thats good enough for me. If not then onto the next experiment. Im gonna jump on the tren train for the first time, just figuring out when. That oughta be fun. Ill let you know of i noticed anything that may be of help obs

[Quester]

Just say this in one and respond to both. Thanks.

I have ran AI somewhat regularly before a couple times. It definitely held off my gyno lump for a while. As dosages of aas increased i found it wouldnt phase my gyno lump in the right nipple. I keep it knocked down with nolva on cycle.

As far as hindering gains... In me I can't imagine it.
If it does undoubtedly my ass will be on AI for the duration of my life.

I am ceasing training my delts because they have taken over my body and tied my family up and held them hostage.

My delts will need no effort to class in the ifbb. The rest of me needs work bad.

If I am pissing away gains walking around with 10x the normal estrogen levels I really want to get on ai again but I really havent noticed much difference in the gains department regardless of high or low.

Interesting,
I wonder if different tissues, and perhaps different muscles (like delts, for example), have different ratios of androgen/estrogen receptors?

[Dannyboy51577]

Interesting,
I wonder if different tissues, and perhaps different muscles (like delts, for example), have different ratios of androgen/estrogen receptors?

I had the same thoughts initially Q. In my case though i think i just had a bad habit of involving my shoulders too much in my chest movements. But its an interesting topic

[Obs]

[

Interesting,
I wonder if different tissues, and perhaps different muscles (like delts, for example), have different ratios of androgen/estrogen receptors?

Delts have more androgen receptors than most muscle groups I am told. As do traps and.... Something... Lats? Idk

[Dannyboy51577]

[



Delts have more androgen receptors than most muscle groups I am told. As do traps and.... Something... Lats? Idk

Thats interesting, never knew that. I would imagine certain parts of the body do, just wouldnt have figured on the delts

[Obs]

Thats interesting, never knew that. I would imagine certain parts of the body do, just wouldnt have figured on the delts

Some of the nerds here probably got a map

[hollowedzeus]

[



Delts have more androgen receptors than most muscle groups I am told. As do traps and.... Something... Lats? Idk

Hence why fit chicks with capped delts have questionable natty status.

Appears to be the most visable thing to pop

[Couchlockd]

Some of the nerds here probably got a map

I've heard this, but numberE showed me a few studies that said it was same as any muscle group. that its just the shoulders and traps are tensed and worked to some degree in almost all upper body exersize.

Also. as you know OBS, I followed GH advice on letting estrogen get higher with minimal AI usage, by week 6 on my cycle I had drfinate hard lump gyno starting and bloated about 15 pounds of water and mid section fat that I'm just now getting rid of.

I require .25 Ed of adex. at that dose I feel great joints are good, BP good. bloat kept to a minimum.

I did .5 eod and I would feel crashed about 4 hours later (sore joints in,elbows and not able to get off right)

[Couchlockd]

some Google Google searches said there are more receptors in the traps and shoulders and some say there isn't. so I don't know. id like to see a map too.

[Obs]

I've heard this, but numberE showed me a few studies that said it was same as any muscle group. that its just the shoulders and traps are tensed and worked to some degree in almost all upper body exersize.

Also. as you know OBS, I followed GH advice on letting estrogen get higher with minimal AI usage, by week 6 on my cycle I had drfinate hard lump gyno starting and bloated about 15 pounds of water and mid section fat that I'm just now getting rid of.

I require .25 Ed of adex. at that dose I feel great joints are good, BP good. bloat kept to a minimum.

I did .5 eod and I would feel crashed about 4 hours later (sore joints in,elbows and not able to get off right)

Interesting about the dosage and receptors. I habent seen anything directly about the receptor density but had just read that a lot on here.

I honestly cant tell I have estrogen until I crash it.


Numbere loves me like a... Gay lover or something so I will take his word for it lol!

[Dannyboy51577]

Interesting about the dosage and receptors. I habent seen anything directly about the receptor density but had just read that a lot on here.

I honestly cant tell I have estrogen until I crash it.


Numbere loves me like a... Gay lover or something so I will take his word for it lol!

I got same prob obs- mine can be through the roof forever and i have no idea. But let it get too low and i know it.

[JaneDoe]

It may increase IGF1 a little (assuming naturally produced estradiol works the same way as topical, which I think I have read before, but oral estrogen can have opposite e but if you use nolvadex it will be more than negated.) https://academic.oup.com/edrv/article/25/5/693/2355205 But people don't report small increases in IGF1 to do anything in terms of gains.

The feedback inhibition and increased IGF production of high estrogen can be pronounced with a triple stack of GHRP, GHRH and infused somatostatin and there is a study done on this specifically, and they used exogenous test to make for conversion to E2.

The above sentence sounds cool if you like to hang on to the balls of e.g. GH and cheer for him and his fake avatar. Why? because it is a stupid idea which nobody would do in real life. For one you'll feel like crap. You'll be walking around bloated, with high blood pressure. You'll increase risk of heart attacks and increase the risks of blood clots forming. So yeah if you have never done a cycle or even lift but want to sound cool on a forum you can claim high estrogen works. (GH didn't know about that study though and though high estrogen alone increases IGF...). If anyone claims high estrogen works then just show them data that estrogen works against free testosterone since it binds to the androgen receptor.

Well, bringing this topic back to life.

From what I've seen the discussion here was about estrogen decreasing anabolic gains from the cycle, lowering serum test levels etc...

My point of view is, supplementing with testosterone in the cycle would provide plenty of IGF-1.

Exogenous testosterone has the ability to increase IGF1.

This study above was differentiated to women, it is not possible to present a study based on the female audience and claim that estrogen has no benefit!

Imo, to some degree it is necessary to grow, GearHeaded has always been a natural high estrogen supporter and he is right in some respects.

He is a great guru, trainer who has lived with many bodybuilders with the same idea as his.

I particularly found that I don't do well with high E2, like bloating and high BP.

That's why I think it's worth using some AI.



But one fact I always agreed with GearHeaded was:

___

What's the point of taking a high dose of Testosterone + Deca + Dianabol if you don't want to raise your E2?


They are steroids that give a lot of water retention, while generating muscle strength with auto E2.


Of course, not every guy can get away with a cycle like these without downsides.

But as GearHeaded said,
using AI together with testo,deca,diabol is like sabotaging an engine..


Bump!