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Thread: HCG Prep when already liquid / General advice

  1. #1
    djnuffsaid is offline New Member
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    HCG Prep when already liquid / General advice

    Good afternoon all,

    I am an old user of this forum for many years but had to create a new login due to loosing the old login info whoops!

    Anyway... please let me preface this by saying I have already looked at the HCG sticky's and still am a dumbo and can't be sure on the basic math (can you believe I passed business calc years ago?).

    I am running a 16wk cycle of 500mg Sust and 400mg Tren E per week. I have used and dosed HCG in the past but always have had powder that I mix with bac water to make up my solution. I am trying to run HCG during my entire cycle (wk1-wk16 at 250 I.U. twice per week [hope that's the appropriate time frame]). I purchased a vial of 10000 I.U. HCG (Bharat Serums and Vaccines) but this time it came in a small premixed vial.

    The solution is 10000 I.U. = 1ml.

    If I add 3ml of bac water, the solution would now be 2500 I.U. per ml with a total of 4ML. Correct?

    If that's the case, the vial can only fit 3ml and I really would like to do this without having to purchase a larger empty vial and transfer the contents over.

    Should I mix the solution to 5000 I.U. per ml with a total of 2ml and dose at 500 I.U. per week (.1ml per shot)?

    or

    Should I mix the solution to 3,333 I.U per ml with a total of 3ml and dose at 333 I.U twice per week (.1ml per shot)?

    This is a cut/gain strength cycle. I have a proper diet with slightly minimized caloric intake and correct ratio of macro nutrients planned out as well as Nolva and Anastrozole for PCT, and am taking Aromasin 25mg per day during cycle.

    Any other advice for the cycle would be appreciated.

    Thanks!

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    You should always have a few 10 mL sterile empty vials just out of principle. Having 10,000 IU in a 3mL vial is no bueno. You need AT LEAST a 10 mL vial, IMO. Then, you would be able to inject .25 mL (250 IU) twice a week. You want 500 IU/week. I find this keeps my balls full.

    I always get my HCG in 5,000 IU and mix it in 10 mL of water so I inject .5 mL twice a week. If it comes in powder, I add 1 mL of bac water to it, and add it into another vial of 9 mL bac water for a total of 10 mL. Otherwise at a high concentration you're injecting like .1 or .05 mL, which is kinda dumb.

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    Test Monsterone -

    I already stated I will be running 500 I.U. a week, and that I don't have empty 10ml's laying around. Also, insulin syringes are 1ml for the entire length of the barrel, separated into .1ml increments. Correct me if I am wrong, but the absorption rate for the HCG does not change based off of the concentration. As long as I have the HCG properly cut with the right amount of bac water for the calculation, it shouldn't matter if 250 I.U.'s of HCG is in the form of .1ml solution or .5ml solution. I'm not trying to put you down - and if the only answer is to get a 10ml vial and cut the HCG with an additional 3ml of bac water to make the concentration 250 I.U. per .1ml, then I will. I posted here because I was looking for a work around. Now if your trying to state that the half-life of HCG is not long enough to make it for 500 I.U. a week and that it needs to be split, that would be useful information. Any thoughts?

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    Quote Originally Posted by djnuffsaid View Post
    Good afternoon all,

    I am an old user of this forum for many years but had to create a new login due to loosing the old login info whoops!

    Anyway... please let me preface this by saying I have already looked at the HCG sticky's and still am a dumbo and can't be sure on the basic math (can you believe I passed business calc years ago?).

    I am running a 16wk cycle of 500mg Sust and 400mg Tren E per week. I have used and dosed HCG in the past but always have had powder that I mix with bac water to make up my solution. I am trying to run HCG during my entire cycle (wk1-wk16 at 250 I.U. twice per week [hope that's the appropriate time frame]). I purchased a vial of 10000 I.U. HCG (Bharat Serums and Vaccines) but this time it came in a small premixed vial.

    The solution is 10000 I.U. = 1ml.

    If I add 3ml of bac water, the solution would now be 2500 I.U. per ml with a total of 4ML. Correct?

    If that's the case, the vial can only fit 3ml and I really would like to do this without having to purchase a larger empty vial and transfer the contents over.

    Should I mix the solution to 5000 I.U. per ml with a total of 2ml and dose at 500 I.U. per week (.1ml per shot)?

    or

    Should I mix the solution to 3,333 I.U per ml with a total of 3ml and dose at 333 I.U twice per week (.1ml per shot)?

    This is a cut/gain strength cycle. I have a proper diet with slightly minimized caloric intake and correct ratio of macro nutrients planned out as well as Nolva and Anastrozole for PCT, and am taking Aromasin 25mg per day during cycle.

    Any other advice for the cycle would be appreciated.

    Thanks!
    Add 2 cc of bacteriostatic water to make it 3333iu/ml and draw back to .08 the line just before the .1. That should get you to about 266iu. Dose it 2x/week.

    It's not ideal, but it will work.

    You can always draw your dose and then draw a tad of bacteriostatic water if you want to spread it out a tad more.

    Edit: Make dang sure you have enough empty volume in your vial before you add the bacteriostatic water.
    Last edited by almostgone; 08-07-2019 at 03:49 PM.
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    djnuffsaid is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by almostgone View Post
    Add 2 cc of bacteriostatic water to make it 3333iu/ml and draw back to .08 the line just before the .1. That should get you to about 266iu. Dose it 2x/week.

    It's not ideal, but it will work.
    Perfect! Thank you for the advice.

    I know that the solution you offered is not ideal as I can't as accurately measure it as if I had a more cut solution but it will work in a pinch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by djnuffsaid View Post
    Perfect! Thank you for the advice.

    I know that the solution you offered is not ideal as I can't as accurately measure it as if I had a more cut solution but it will work in a pinch.
    Also, go to the one on one section down below the lounge section of the forum.
    If you remember your email addy tied to your account, *Admin* might be able to get your old account going and combine the 2....maybe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by almostgone View Post
    Also, go to the one on one section down below the lounge section of the forum.
    If you remember your email addy tied to your account, *Admin* might be able to get your old account going and combine the 2....maybe.
    Thanks, just tried! Any other input about my cycle in general would be helpful if you had any. I have done this exact cycle before and it has worked great! Maybe reduce the tren to 300mg a week so it's not so harsh on my body?

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    Quote Originally Posted by djnuffsaid View Post
    and am taking Aromasin 25mg per day during cycle.

    Any other advice for the cycle would be appreciated.

    Thanks!
    do you really think you need 25mg of Aromasin per day when your only running 500mg of test ? most guys don't need an AI at all with that low of a dose.

    I'm guessing you probably feel like total crap on this cycle thus far

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    edit - just realized I responded to your other thread as well . between the super low calorie intake and taking that much AI when its not needed at all is probably why your having issues with this cycle

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    Quote Originally Posted by djnuffsaid View Post
    Thanks, just tried! Any other input about my cycle in general would be helpful if you had any. I have done this exact cycle before and it has worked great! Maybe reduce the tren to 300mg a week so it's not so harsh on my body?
    I'm a fan of lower tren dosages, but some guys prefer the higher ones. About all I can say is listen to the feedback, your prior cycles, and pick a protocol.

    For me 200-300mg (max)/ week of tren is plenty, but I have some health issues I work around.

    Now, I will often run 200mg of tren/week and a slightly lesser amount of Deca with my tren and of course I have my test in there as well.

    If it's been a while since you ran anything, personally I would lean towards a conservative cycle. On the other hand, some guys say "Damn, I've been off too long" and prefer to crank up the dosages.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GearHeaded View Post
    edit - just realized I responded to your other thread as well . between the super low calorie intake and taking that much AI when its not needed at all is probably why your having issues with this cycle
    Think the OP of that thread was a different person, GH?

    Just checked, it was a different OP.
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    Quote Originally Posted by almostgone View Post
    I'm a fan of lower tren dosages, but some guys prefer the higher ones. About all I can say is listen to the feedback, your prior cycles, and pick a protocol.

    For me 200-300mg (max)/ week of tren is plenty, but I have some health issues I work around.

    Now, I will often run 200mg of tren/week and a slightly lesser amount of Deca with my tren and of course I have my test in there as well.

    If it's been a while since you ran anything, personally I would lean towards a conservative cycle. On the other hand, some guys say "Damn, I've been off too long" and prefer to crank up the dosages.
    Yeah that was the exact reason I went with this cycle is because I have done about 10 cycles lifetime, and although the last one was a year and a half ago, my last two were this exact cycle and I had major major gains. I guess I just have figured out over the years and cycles what compounds in what dosage works for my body. The reason why I run Aromasin with the cycle is because I am pretty side effect prone. If I don't run it I end up having to take anastrozole half way through my cycle in high dosages which really messes with me (joints kill me for one).

    As far as the tren, really the side effect other than the sweating that sucks the most is no matter how much water I drink my pee turns orange. Any thoughts?

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    Quote Originally Posted by djnuffsaid View Post
    Yeah that was the exact reason I went with this cycle is because I have done about 10 cycles lifetime, and although the last one was a year and a half ago, my last two were this exact cycle and I had major major gains. I guess I just have figured out over the years and cycles what compounds in what dosage works for my body. The reason why I run Aromasin with the cycle is because I am pretty side effect prone. If I don't run it I end up having to take anastrozole half way through my cycle in high dosages which really messes with me (joints kill me for one).

    As far as the tren, really the side effect other than the sweating that sucks the most is no matter how much water I drink my pee turns orange. Any thoughts?
    You say your joints hurt when you run high doses of Adex, it is the Adex that is doing this. It is far to high, i did this years ago, lowered the AI significantly and went back to normal. Must just have crashed e2 way to much.
    Do you run any NAC ? It is a very good liver support.
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    ^^^ Good point, also TUDCA.
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    Quote Originally Posted by djnuffsaid View Post
    Yeah that was the exact reason I went with this cycle is because I have done about 10 cycles lifetime, and although the last one was a year and a half ago, my last two were this exact cycle and I had major major gains. I guess I just have figured out over the years and cycles what compounds in what dosage works for my body. The reason why I run Aromasin with the cycle is because I am pretty side effect prone. If I don't run it I end up having to take anastrozole half way through my cycle in high dosages which really messes with me (joints kill me for one).

    As far as the tren, really the side effect other than the sweating that sucks the most is no matter how much water I drink my pee turns orange. Any thoughts?
    500mg of test isn't a high dose . thats an off cycle baby cruise dose for a lot of guys.

    keep in mind that Tren doesn't aromatize and an AI will do nothing for the progestin/estrogen effects it gives, you need a progestin receptor blunter like Masteon to limit the negative side effects of Tren, and a SERM if your gyno prone. Aromasin does nothing to blunt the progestin/estrogen effects of Tren.
    so again, your simply running that much AI for a measly 500mg of test

    also, you say your taking that much AI because your side effect prone .. just from observation and personal experience, AI's generaly cause more side effects then they help . heck you even go on to mention your joints hurt from the AI usage. what negative side effects from a measly 500mg of test does an AI help you with ? if you say estrogen sides, well keep in mind that most negative side effects from Test come from DHT related sides and not estrogen, in fact estrogen generally causes more positive benefits then negative (thats why keeping E too low while on cycle is a bad idea) and really is the whole reason anyone would run test in the first place (if you want to run low estrogen cycles then you don't run test, you run cycles with non aromatizing compounds. Most AAS don't convert to estrogen so there are plenty of options)
    Last edited by GearHeaded; 08-08-2019 at 05:01 AM.

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    There is so much confusion regarding estrogen. Some gurus say to keep it within the normal range. Dave Palumbo said it should be in the low 20's, if I'm not mistaken. They also say above normal estrogen is what causes prostate cancer in older men, not higher levels of testosterone . But of course, higher levels of testosterone equal more conversion to estrogen. The problem is that there aren't enough studies on supraphysiological doses of testosterone/estrogen to draw any concrete conclusions. If estrogen should be higher on cycle, how high should it be? 40, 60, 200? One of the only measures we use when cycling steroids is going by how we feel. But that provides a lot of room for error. We could be feeling like crap for a number of reasons, unrelated to estrogen. But then we take less/more AIs to combat something that was/wasn't a problem to begin with. I wish someone with a lot of spare change would study these things more thoroughly. Ideally you would need blood work done before the cycle, every 2 weeks during the cycle, and a couple of times post cycle. And the study would have to be replicated at least a dozen times, at different doses and different types of AIs/SERMS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Test Monsterone View Post
    There is so much confusion regarding estrogen. Some gurus say to keep it within the normal range. Dave Palumbo said it should be in the low 20's, if I'm not mistaken. They also say above normal estrogen is what causes prostate cancer in older men, not higher levels of testosterone . But of course, higher levels of testosterone equal more conversion to estrogen. The problem is that there aren't enough studies on supraphysiological doses of testosterone/estrogen to draw any concrete conclusions. If estrogen should be higher on cycle, how high should it be? 40, 60, 200? One of the only measures we use when cycling steroids is going by how we feel. But that provides a lot of room for error. We could be feeling like crap for a number of reasons, unrelated to estrogen. But then we take less/more AIs to combat something that was/wasn't a problem to begin with. I wish someone with a lot of spare change would study these things more thoroughly. Ideally you would need blood work done before the cycle, every 2 weeks during the cycle, and a couple of times post cycle. And the study would have to be replicated at least a dozen times, at different doses and different types of AIs/SERMS.

    we don't really need to measure it or even concern ourself with the number while on cycle at all, and we surely don't need AI's imo . your body will simply make and convert as much estrogen as it see's fit. its a self regulating system. the number on a piece of paper is irrelevant.. your body will make whatever amount of estrogen it needs to counter the ratio of androgens it has... it does this naturally. the idea that we need to self regulate our estrogen levels while on cycle is silly to me.
    I haven't bothered to get my E levels checked on blood work in like 5 years. its of no value to me.. it tells me nothing. if I'm running 2000mg of test per week, then sure my estrogen levels are going to be elevated , duh I don't need to pay a lab to tell me that. and if I want to blast a cycle and NOT have my estrogen levels elevated , then I'm not going to run any test or compounds that aromatize, I'll just run some Winny and Masteron for eg.


    note: also Dave Palumbo has changed his views on estrogen over the years. he doesn't believe guys should limit estrogen with AI's when on TRT or using test , UNLESS they are contest prep bodybuilders getting ready for a show. he also believes that gyno is genetic and your not going to be able to stop that genetic factor by using AI's so don't even bother.


    more and more people over the years based on new research are realizing that estrogen is not some bad female only hormone, and that its essential for health and even muscle building.
    but its funny , back in the day 20 years ago when guys used to run a gram of test with no AI's , they would get jacked and huge.. but now you have lots of forum guys running Test only cycles with a shit ton of AI's they start from day one of their cycle, and they look like they don't even lift.
    the whole 'Internet forum' dogma about having to use AI's thats been popular the last decade or so is not only screwing up peoples health, but its hindering guys physiques and they are not putting on near the size as they could. 500mg of test with .25mg of Adex daily from day one of the cycle is a horrible first cycle and your not likely to get shit for gains from that,, yet thats the very thing 90% of guys that learn about AAS from a steriod forum do (and again thats why they don't look like they lift let alone look like a juice head)

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    I'll use an example from this forum ... look at Charger. he is in his 50s and in 2 years he has put on 25 pounds of muscle and stage weight. that is huge..
    guess what he did 2 years ago ? he stopped using AI's all together after hearing some of my arguments about the benefit of estrogen for muscle growth (of course his hard ass work ethic and dedication helped as well .. just saying, its quite coincidental that once he let his estrogen elevate and control itself, he grew like a weed)
    Last edited by GearHeaded; 08-08-2019 at 07:00 AM.

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    I used an AI once.

    I'll run chemotherapy before touching an AI again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Windex View Post
    I used an AI once.

    I'll run chemotherapy before touching an AI again.
    I hear ya . I've heard some people consider that AI's are the most unhealthy drug in bodybuilding (I think thats over exaggerated but they have some points when you hear them out).


    but really, AI's are completely unnecessary and not needed. this may sound overly simple, but the simple fact is that if you don't want your estrogen levels to elevate when on cycle then simply don't run test or any other compound that aromatizes. why run a test only cycle, then have to run an AI which defeats the purpose of what test does in the first place . makes no sense .. if you don't want elevated estrogen then run other AAS, most of which are not estrogenic and don't aromatize.. I'd say that 80% of the steroids available to us to run are not estrogenic . so we clearly have tons of choices and stacks we can put together without ever having to run an AI to control estrogen.
    its a total waste of $ to decide to run an estrogen bomb (test) and then take a very expensive drug just to limit that estrogen. People think that Var and Primo are too expensive.. really,, do the math and see how much your test plus all that AI you run costs you compared to the Var.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GearHeaded View Post
    note: also Dave Palumbo has changed his views on estrogen over the years. he doesn't believe guys should limit estrogen with AI's when on TRT or using test , UNLESS they are contest prep bodybuilders getting ready for a show.

    and I don't quite agree with Dave here, except in some circumstances.. if you get lean enough your E levels are going to plummet anyways. and if you take an AI and crash E levels even further, then your going to show up on stage looking very flat, as estrogen is an essential hormone that plays a role in glucose metabolism and the loading of glycogen into muscle cells. you'll carb up and nothing will happen if your E levels are crashed

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    sorry if I derailed your thread OP

    heres another couple points though..

    - lets say you run 500mg of test with an AI and you decide to run HGH for the first time.. you get base line bloods and your IGF is at 150. then 2 months later after running 4iu per day of your pricey HGH your check IGF and its only 170, and your like shit this HGH is fake ass garbage.. well ten bucks says that if you'd of not run the AI with this cycle and you let your estrogen regulate itself based on the amount of test your taking, your IGF levels would of been much higher and you wouldn't think your HGH was fake.

    - Tren is known to increase IGF levels . thats a good thing because IGF is extremely anabolic .. well guess what, its not the Tren itself doing it. Its via the progestin/estrogen mechanism of action that your IGF levels increase while on Tren. the Tren is just helping sensitize estrogen receptors (via it being a progestin based compound) and estrogen is then binding in the liver and up regulating IGF output. its the estrogen causing the growth factors, not the Tren, in regards to IGF

    - I've said this a ton of times but will repeat .. when cattle are bulked up for slaughter by being injected with androgens (mainly tren) they are injected with a shit ton of estrogen at that same time.. the reason why is that the androgens are not that effective at putting on size (great for getting lean though), however estrogen in the presence of elevated androgens is extremely effective at putting on size and mass.
    so again, why would a bodybuilder when wanting to put on muscle mass purposely elevate his androgens and then take a drug like an AI to then lower his estrogen. its counter productive for growth. even ranchers know this

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    Quote Originally Posted by GearHeaded View Post
    sorry if I derailed your thread OP

    heres another couple points though..

    - lets say you run 500mg of test with an AI and you decide to run HGH for the first time.. you get base line bloods and your IGF is at 150. then 2 months later after running 4iu per day of your pricey HGH your check IGF and its only 170, and your like shit this HGH is fake ass garbage.. well ten bucks says that if you'd of not run the AI with this cycle and you let your estrogen regulate itself based on the amount of test your taking, your IGF levels would of been much higher and you wouldn't think your HGH was fake.

    - Tren is known to increase IGF levels . thats a good thing because IGF is extremely anabolic .. well guess what, its not the Tren itself doing it. Its via the progestin/estrogen mechanism of action that your IGF levels increase while on Tren. the Tren is just helping sensitize estrogen receptors (via it being a progestin based compound) and estrogen is then binding in the liver and up regulating IGF output. its the estrogen causing the growth factors, not the Tren, in regards to IGF

    - I've said this a ton of times but will repeat .. when cattle are bulked up for slaughter by being injected with androgens (mainly tren) they are injected with a shit ton of estrogen at that same time.. the reason why is that the androgens are not that effective at putting on size (great for getting lean though), however estrogen in the presence of elevated androgens is extremely effective at putting on size and mass.
    so again, why would a bodybuilder when wanting to put on muscle mass purposely elevate his androgens and then take a drug like an AI to then lower his estrogen. its counter productive for growth. even ranchers know this
    Your okay! This is what this board is for, is to discuss different thoughts and applications of AAS!

    Two questions for GearHeaded.
    Now I have heard on this post some people say that 500mg/wk of test is a very small, light amount. How come in the past when I ran 600mg/wk test by it's self, my test was 10,000??? Is it because some people have juiced too hard and repressed their receptors?

    Next, keep in mind that I am not a body builder, I do not compete, and I have no interest in starting. Also, I am just getting back into the AAS community so while I know quite a bit, some of you guys absolutely trump me.

    So trying to navigate through everything above - should I cut the Aromasin out of the cycle? If I do, what should I do if/when I start to experience gyno?

    Also, when I have run a tren/test cycle in the past without any ancillaries and gotten gyno, one time is also was accompanied by lactating nipples when I squeezed them. What causes this?

    P.S. I am a fan of a little goes a long way. You will never see me running a gram of test a week. When I get my blood checked my levels are plenty high with 500 still.
    Last edited by djnuffsaid; 08-09-2019 at 10:33 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by djnuffsaid View Post
    Your okay! This is what this board is for, is to discuss different thoughts and applications of AAS!

    Two questions for GearHeaded.
    Now I have heard on this post some people say that 500mg/wk of test is a very small, light amount. How come in the past when I ran 600mg/wk test by it's self, my test was 10,000??? Is it because some people have juiced too hard and repressed their receptors?

    Next, keep in mind that I am not a body builder, I do not compete, and I have no interest in starting. Also, I am just getting back into the AAS community so while I know quite a bit, some of you guys absolutely trump me.

    So trying to navigate through everything above - should I cut the Aromasin out of the cycle? If I do, what should I do if/when I start to experience gyno?

    Also, when I have run a tren /test cycle in the past without any ancillaries and gotten gyno, one time is also was accompanied by lactating nipples when I squeezed them. What causes this?

    P.S. I am a fan of a little goes a long way. You will never see me running a gram of test a week. When I get my blood checked my levels are plenty high with 500 still.

    I would generally consider 500mg of test by itself a small dose.. but it depends on the context and situation. but in general for a lot of guys that bodybuild thats really nothing more then a cruise dose. most guys i work with when coming off cycle and 'cruising' are running 500mg when off (I generally have them run anabolics mainly though and not just test, so something like 300mg of Primo and 150mg of test would be an "off cycle" cruise dose).

    its really not about receptors being supressed or de-sensitized or anything like that , even though thats a popular belief. in fact the higher dosages and more gear you run the more dense androgen receptors become over time. you actually have more potential for putting on more muscle.

    think of this.. if test was suppressive to androgen receptors and de-sensitized you over time,, then TRT would not work. your TRT doc would constantly have to be increasing your dosage and or giving you breaks and restarting your TRT all the time. but the fact is you get on TRT and lets say 200mg of test is what works for you, you can stay on that for 20 years straight without an issue. you don't de-sensitize. it works and always will work.
    same with other drugs.. take your 70 year old grandma for example who is on 25mg of heart medication since she was 50. she is on the same 25mg of heart pills for the last 20 years and it works every single day she takes it , thats why she keeps taking it. it just works.

    if you metabolize testosterone really well and achieve 10,000 ng/dl off only 500mg of test .. then thats great. especially if your a newer user.. but for guys that have been running gear for quite awhile , IF they are going to run a test only cycle, they generally will find that 800-1500mg per week is the sweet spot when the magic really starts to happen (especially if they can get their Estrogen levels way up there without issue). there is no magic at 500mg for them.. and on the other end of the spectrum they may find that Test sucks all together and they won't run it as part of their cycles and run actual anabolic steroids instead (note- test isn't an anabolic steriod ).
    3000mg of test for a 300 pound bodybuilder is fairly common.. but so is 500mg of test (a low dose) stacked with 3 grams of actual anabolics.


    as far as cutting the Aromasin.. IF your goal was to put on size and muscle mass then yes I'd cut it out completely . elevated blood serum levels of estrogen in the presence of elevated androgens is going to promote a lot more muscle growth. If your gyno prone then simply run some Nolva, as it will block estrogen at breast tissue receptors sites while still allowing for elevated serum levels of estrogen.


    the reason you got gyno and lactation from your last tren and test cycle is because Tren is a progestin derived compound. it acts on progestin receptors just like progesterone itself. this is going to result in being overly sensitive to estrogen, even if your E levels are low. an AI will NOT do a thing for this,, it doesn't matter if you limit aromatization, its the progestin receptor from the tren thats causing the issue not aromatization.
    you need to add Masteron (and nolva). MASTeron . "mast" means breast.. its an AAS that was developed for female breast cancer patients to blunt estrogen and poregestin receptors in breast tissue.

    add Masteron and Nolva and ditch the aromasin and you'll probably have less side effects with far better growth and results


    your right , a little does go a long way . but truth is a lot goes an even longer way

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    on a side note -- I had a client awhile back that was a new user to AAS , never ran a cycle, though he was on doc prescribed TRT. we ended up running a gram of test, started out with 600mg of primo, switched to 600mg of mast, then finished off with a little bit of tren as well. got awesome results with zero side effects (also dropped the AI out of his protocol)
    guarantee you if he would of followed the first cycle idea of running just 500mg of test with an AI he would have been greatly disappointed after 12 weeks

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    Quote Originally Posted by GearHeaded View Post
    I would generally consider 500mg of test by itself a small dose.. but it depends on the context and situation. but in general for a lot of guys that bodybuild thats really nothing more then a cruise dose. most guys i work with when coming off cycle and 'cruising' are running 500mg when off (I generally have them run anabolics mainly though and not just test, so something like 300mg of Primo and 150mg of test would be an "off cycle" cruise dose).

    its really not about receptors being supressed or de-sensitized or anything like that , even though thats a popular belief. in fact the higher dosages and more gear you run the more dense androgen receptors become over time. you actually have more potential for putting on more muscle.

    think of this.. if test was suppressive to androgen receptors and de-sensitized you over time,, then TRT would not work. your TRT doc would constantly have to be increasing your dosage and or giving you breaks and restarting your TRT all the time. but the fact is you get on TRT and lets say 200mg of test is what works for you, you can stay on that for 20 years straight without an issue. you don't de-sensitize. it works and always will work.
    same with other drugs.. take your 70 year old grandma for example who is on 25mg of heart medication since she was 50. she is on the same 25mg of heart pills for the last 20 years and it works every single day she takes it , thats why she keeps taking it. it just works.

    if you metabolize testosterone really well and achieve 10,000 ng/dl off only 500mg of test .. then thats great. especially if your a newer user.. but for guys that have been running gear for quite awhile , IF they are going to run a test only cycle, they generally will find that 800-1500mg per week is the sweet spot when the magic really starts to happen (especially if they can get their Estrogen levels way up there without issue). there is no magic at 500mg for them.. and on the other end of the spectrum they may find that Test sucks all together and they won't run it as part of their cycles and run actual anabolic steroids instead (note- test isn't an anabolic steriod ).
    3000mg of test for a 300 pound bodybuilder is fairly common.. but so is 500mg of test (a low dose) stacked with 3 grams of actual anabolics.


    as far as cutting the Aromasin .. IF your goal was to put on size and muscle mass then yes I'd cut it out completely . elevated blood serum levels of estrogen in the presence of elevated androgens is going to promote a lot more muscle growth. If your gyno prone then simply run some Nolva, as it will block estrogen at breast tissue receptors sites while still allowing for elevated serum levels of estrogen.


    the reason you got gyno and lactation from your last tren and test cycle is because Tren is a progestin derived compound. it acts on progestin receptors just like progesterone itself. this is going to result in being overly sensitive to estrogen, even if your E levels are low. an AI will NOT do a thing for this,, it doesn't matter if you limit aromatization, its the progestin receptor from the tren thats causing the issue not aromatization.
    you need to add Masteron (and nolva). MASTeron . "mast" means breast.. its an AAS that was developed for female breast cancer patients to blunt estrogen and poregestin receptors in breast tissue.

    add Masteron and Nolva and ditch the aromasin and you'll probably have less side effects with far better growth and results


    your right , a little does go a long way . but truth is a lot goes an even longer way
    Awesome, thank you so much! And I agree the truth goes even further!

    So I am at week 1 of this 16 week cycle. If I ordered mast I probably wouldn't be able to get it for another 4 weeks. Should I do that and start mast 4 weeks in with the Nolva or just run the Nolva starting now. How much Nolva and how much mast would you run?

    Also, this is my 3rd time taking HCG during cycle but this time when I just subQed yesterday the .08ml of HCG like we talked about, I woke up this morning to find the injection site a little black and blue. Never had that happen. Thoughts?

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    Quote Originally Posted by djnuffsaid View Post
    Awesome, thank you so much! And I agree the truth goes even further!

    So I am at week 1 of this 16 week cycle. If I ordered mast I probably wouldn't be able to get it for another 4 weeks. Should I do that and start mast 4 weeks in with the Nolva or just run the Nolva starting now. How much Nolva and how much mast would you run?

    Also, this is my 3rd time taking HCG during cycle but this time when I just subQed yesterday the .08ml of HCG like we talked about, I woke up this morning to find the injection site a little black and blue. Never had that happen. Thoughts?
    I would start Nolva at 10mg per day and adjust from there if need be.. as for Mast, thats a super common AAS now days and very readily available.. I'm not sure where you live but don't see why you can't have Mast at your front door in 4 days rather then 4 weeks.
    400mg of Mast will definitely enhance your current cycle and also limit side effects at the same time


    bruising from a sub q injection is likely just from nicking a vein under the skin. not an issue and I wouldn't be concerned with it.. red marks, welts, and swelling that last for days on end is an issue and likely means your stuff is contaminated

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    Quote Originally Posted by djnuffsaid View Post
    Awesome, thank you so much! And I agree the truth goes even further!

    So I am at week 1 of this 16 week cycle. If I ordered mast I probably wouldn't be able to get it for another 4 weeks. Should I do that and start mast 4 weeks in with the Nolva or just run the Nolva starting now. How much Nolva and how much mast would you run?

    Also, this is my 3rd time taking HCG during cycle but this time when I just subQed yesterday the .08ml of HCG like we talked about, I woke up this morning to find the injection site a little black and blue. Never had that happen. Thoughts?
    It happens occasionally. You drew back to the line just before the .1 , correct?
    There are 3 loves in my life: my wife, my English mastiffs, and my weightlifting....Man, my wife gets really pissed when I get the 3 confused...
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    Quote Originally Posted by almostgone View Post
    It happens occasionally. You drew back to the line just before the .1 , correct?
    Yes sir

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    Quote Originally Posted by djnuffsaid View Post
    Yes sir
    I've bruised on less than that. Not every time, but occasionally it happens.
    There are 3 loves in my life: my wife, my English mastiffs, and my weightlifting....Man, my wife gets really pissed when I get the 3 confused...
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    Quote Originally Posted by GearHeaded View Post
    I would start Nolva at 10mg per day and adjust from there if need be.. as for Mast, thats a super common AAS now days and very readily available.. I'm not sure where you live but don't see why you can't have Mast at your front door in 4 days rather then 4 weeks.
    400mg of Mast will definitely enhance your current cycle and also limit side effects at the same time


    bruising from a sub q injection is likely just from nicking a vein under the skin. not an issue and I wouldn't be concerned with it.. red marks, welts, and swelling that last for days on end is an issue and likely means your stuff is contaminated
    Sorry bud, didn't see this post. I only have one source to get AAS from, so it's not readily available for me. Not sure where you get it from in 4 days but I am going to take your advice and order some Mast. Might take awhile to get here but at least I'll be able to use it on the last 2/3rds of my cycle - hope that will be effective! And just to confirm, thats 400mg of Mast a week, correct? and I'm in San Diego, CA

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