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Thread: STOP running estrogenic compounds if you don't want estrogen sides !!!!

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    STOP running estrogenic compounds if you don't want estrogen sides !!!!

    ok so I've said this over and over again on here. but I figured I'd make a post and make it as clear as possible, especially to our newer members on here.

    so you want to run a cycle BUT , for whatever reason you don't want elevated estrogen (which is in itself silly being elevated estrogen in the presence of elevated androgens is extremely anabolic and is the whole reason your cycling to begin with .. but whatever, for some reason you want to keep your E levels low while on cycle) .

    ok , I get it . you want to run a cycle but keep E levels in the low range. fine. but why in the hell are you picking Test and Dbol as your compounds to run !! then choosing to run a whole bunch of an AI or Nolva just to block estrogen.
    thats completely defeating the purpose of those two compounds . you run those compounds FOR the estrogen conversion to begin with.

    it makes zero sense to run test only cycles or test and dbol cycles , when you want to keep E levels low . thats like deciding to buy a Ferrari and then put a speed governor on it (like an AI) that only lets it go 40 miles per hour.. lol whats the point.
    the reason you run test and dbol is FOR the estrogen conversion in the first place! if your going to run those compounds, then block the estrogen (which is what those compounds do) then your defeating the purpose.


    are you not aware that a majority of the AAS available to us don't convert to estrogen in the first place ! ?

    if your going to run a cycle and you want to keep E levels low (which again I don't think is optimal , unless your getting on stage) then design your cycle using non estrgeonic compounds . its that simple guys !!!
    and screw the idea of test only cycles and test has to be the foundation of every cycle you do.. thats BS. if you want to keep E levels on the low end, then simply don't mess with test, or just keep it super low.

    look , heres a list of a ton of compounds you can run and stacks you can put together without having to worry about elevated estrogen . none of these drugs would require an AI (in fact some of them actually lower E levels).
    - Primo
    - Anavar
    - Masteron
    - DHB
    - Stenbolone
    - Wnstrol
    - Deca
    - NPP
    - Tren
    - Eq
    - halotestin
    - superdrol
    etc etc.. I could go on. point being, you can run AAS for years without ever having to touch an AI or estrogenic compound

    why everyone, that wants to keep E levels low, keeps reverting to test only cycles is just ridiculous . expand your horizons.. run actual anabolic steroids , that provide more results and less sides then test, and don't convert a ton over to estrogen (if thats your goal ,, again I personally think estrogen is useful and should be part of most cycles.. but to each their own)
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    Quote Originally Posted by GearHeaded View Post
    ok so I've said this over and over again on here. but I figured I'd make a post and make it as clear as possible, especially to our newer members on here.

    so you want to run a cycle BUT , for whatever reason you don't want elevated estrogen (which is in itself silly being elevated estrogen in the presence of elevated androgens is extremely anabolic and is the whole reason your cycling to begin with .. but whatever, for some reason you want to keep your E levels low while on cycle) .

    ok , I get it . you want to run a cycle but keep E levels in the low range. fine. but why in the hell are you picking Test and Dbol as your compounds to run !! then choosing to run a whole bunch of an AI or Nolva just to block estrogen.
    thats completely defeating the purpose of those two compounds . you run those compounds FOR the estrogen conversion to begin with.

    it makes zero sense to run test only cycles or test and dbol cycles , when you want to keep E levels low . thats like deciding to buy a Ferrari and then put a speed governor on it (like an AI) that only lets it go 40 miles per hour.. lol whats the point.
    the reason you run test and dbol is FOR the estrogen conversion in the first place! if your going to run those compounds, then block the estrogen (which is what those compounds do) then your defeating the purpose.


    are you not aware that a majority of the AAS available to us don't convert to estrogen in the first place ! ?

    if your going to run a cycle and you want to keep E levels low (which again I don't think is optimal , unless your getting on stage) then design your cycle using non estrgeonic compounds . its that simple guys !!!
    and screw the idea of test only cycles and test has to be the foundation of every cycle you do.. thats BS. if you want to keep E levels on the low end, then simply don't mess with test, or just keep it super low.

    look , heres a list of a ton of compounds you can run and stacks you can put together without having to worry about elevated estrogen . none of these drugs would require an AI (in fact some of them actually lower E levels).
    - Primo
    - Anavar
    - Masteron
    - DHB
    - Stenbolone
    - Wnstrol
    - Deca
    - NPP
    - Tren
    - Eq
    - halotestin
    - superdrol
    etc etc.. I could go on. point being, you can run AAS for years without ever having to touch an AI or estrogenic compound

    why everyone, that wants to keep E levels low, keeps reverting to test only cycles is just ridiculous . expand your horizons.. run actual anabolic steroids, that provide more results and less sides then test, and don't convert a ton over to estrogen (if thats your goal ,, again I personally think estrogen is useful and should be part of most cycles.. but to each their own)

    Fantastic thread man!

    After reading it; would you think Masteron plus Equipoise alone, with no test can sync? I used Equipoise before with test, and loved Equipoise; felt like i was never tired doing cardio and got sick pumps during last few weeks of the cycle at the gym. Im now considering masteron as a new compount i've never tried.
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    I think the main problem is that many are afraid of gyno aka man boobs. That's probably why they are chasing the lower estrogen aspect of cycling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mula View Post
    I think the main problem is that many are afraid of gyno aka man boobs. That's probably why they are chasing the lower estrogen aspect of cycling.
    Then use a SERM like Nolva. Problem solved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CALLMEOCT View Post
    Fantastic thread man!

    After reading it; would you think Masteron plus Equipoise alone, with no test can sync? I used Equipoise before with test, and loved Equipoise; felt like i was never tired doing cardio and got sick pumps during last few weeks of the cycle at the gym. Im now considering masteron as a new compount i've never tried.
    you can definitely run 'no test' cycles if you know how to properly stack other compounds.
    I recently ran EQ as my base anabolic , added a low dose of tren as my main androgen, and added only 10mg of Dbol per day to provide some DHT and a little bit of estrogen (you need some estrogen to function.. estrogen, not test, is what controls the male sex drive).
    EQ is a great replacement cause its acts on the androgen receptors in a very similar fashion as does test. you could pretty much just consider EQ non estrogenic test.

    if you wanted to run for example a 1000mg of test cycle, but wanted to keep estrogen low,, rather then running the 1000mg of test with an AI . you simply run 200mg of test, and add 800mg of EQ to make up the difference as a 'test replacement' sort of speak

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mula View Post
    I think the main problem is that many are afraid of gyno aka man boobs. That's probably why they are chasing the lower estrogen aspect of cycling.

    yeah but thats kinda like being afraid to lift weights and train hard in case you accidentally become a 300 pound bodybuilder . its just NOT going to happen unless your genetically pre-disposed to it. you can't just accidentally get gyno. you have to have a genetic factor that leads to gyno.
    I personally can run 2000 mg of test per week with 1000 mg of tren on top of it, and not so much as even get an itchy nipple , let alone gyno... yet other guys get gyno just from a trt dose of test, because of their genetics.

    you shouldn't be afraid of it unless you know your pre-disposed to it, and if you are then your going to get gyno no matter what you do.
    its like being afraid your going to die of cancer at 70 years old, yet everyone in your family has a history of heart disease and a genetic pre-disposition to that and your likey going to die of a heart attack at 50 , way before you have a chance to die of cancer at 70 .
    yeah thats a grim thought, but genetics make the rules
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    I want to add my 2 cents. I've been on AAS for 4 years. I always ran an AI, kept my E2 around 30-65 at all times. I never ran Nolva unless I did a PCT.

    About 5 months ago I stopped using an AI and I have never felt better, or looked better since I made the switch to a SERM like Nolva. I keep Ai on hand and pop .5mg every 2 weeks(Switched to .5mg every 3 weeks after blood work). Bloodwork was just done and pending my results (damn holiday is making it slow), but last time I did it like this they were around 168pg/ml. I expect them to be 200 pg/ml now with the extended timing of AI dose. We will see...

    Anyway - I have almost dropped the AI entirely and never felt better. Just my 2 cents.
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    Ive been an old time, returning member here so i wanna ask something...
    Since ive learned most of the stuff about aas from here, members that are way more experienced than i am. .. Always advocated the use of AI
    I wasnt around here for some time, and now i pop up before i start my next cycle, and see this, what changed?
    Do we not support the use of ai anymore? I was always doing the low dose of 0.25 mcg eod.

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    Tren is in its own category - sorta

    Estrogenic - no

    But, it’ll give you estro like sides - prolactin or whatever the fuck - either of which can become uncontrollable.

    I would say deca too - but, surprisingly enough it never gave me these sides



    I’m done with the rest - Test + Var is just fine with me

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    Quote Originally Posted by GearHeaded View Post
    yeah but thats kinda like being afraid to lift weights and train hard in case you accidentally become a 300 pound bodybuilder . its just NOT going to happen unless your genetically pre-disposed to it. you can't just accidentally get gyno. you have to have a genetic factor that leads to gyno.
    I personally can run 2000 mg of test per week with 1000 mg of tren on top of it, and not so much as even get an itchy nipple , let alone gyno... yet other guys get gyno just from a trt dose of test, because of their genetics.

    you shouldn't be afraid of it unless you know your pre-disposed to it, and if you are then your going to get gyno no matter what you do.
    its like being afraid your going to die of cancer at 70 years old, yet everyone in your family has a history of heart disease and a genetic pre-disposition to that and your likey going to die of a heart attack at 50 , way before you have a chance to die of cancer at 70 .
    yeah thats a grim thought, but genetics make the rules
    I stopped AI though I got a gyno knot once in a while.
    I would knock it out with nolva once in a while.
    Ran a long long time at higher dises rotating compound and ran mast. Never had it form again.

    Now I have seen insane doses with no AI and no nolva.

    Guys on AI can test it like I did if they are afraid.
    Skip a dose.
    Skip 2
    Skip a month
    Fuck it.

    That was the way I tested it out myself.

    Somewhere along the way my body changed and became accustomed to it to where I dont need nolva or AI to prevent estrogen sides. In my case it was just a smaller than a pea sized lump, that was the only side.

    Sex drive goes up too in my case with estrogen but thats a welcomed side. Its all around better sex.

    God I need some sex
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    You spoke my heart out, thanks, being old user and not being in touch with new guys, this is what I learnt, around 6, 7 years ago The test only cycles was a thing and running AI and HCG during the cycle was must have otherwise you will be bashed. On the top everyone you spoke to was saying gyno gyno and gyno everywhere which made me actually paranoid. How to get out of that paranoia is something I need to work on and trust myself.

    Thanks again for the post
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    Tbh im gonna keep running an low dose AI but...
    I will switch to aromasin 12.5 mcg ed, im way too afraid of gyno since ive had the puberty one removed, and i tend to bloat a lot, i might be a bit sensitive to estro sides
    Now im paranoid thats gonna hinder my gains a lot lol, although it didnt before

    P. S. Hello to everyone again, i wasnt posting for like 2 years, back then i was a lonely student lol, now im married, got my diploma and started working a few months ago, my wife supports my aas use, so i cant wait to start my cycle after a 2 years of break from aas. Glad im back in this community
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myers View Post
    Tbh im gonna keep running an low dose AI but...
    I will switch to aromasin 12.5 mcg ed, im way too afraid of gyno since ive had the puberty one removed, and i tend to bloat a lot, i might be a bit sensitive to estro sides
    Now im paranoid thats gonna hinder my gains a lot lol, although it didnt before

    P. S. Hello to everyone again, i wasnt posting for like 2 years, back then i was a lonely student lol, now im married, got my diploma and started working a few months ago, my wife supports my aas use, so i cant wait to start my cycle after a 2 years of break from aas. Glad im back in this community
    If you havenít begun cycle why not run some different compounds besides a bunch of test (the whole point of this thread)? Example letís say you were going to run 750mg test weekly with an ai. Instead run 200mg test, 600mg EQ/primo (or maybe npp), and some mast with no AI.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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    Quote Originally Posted by balance View Post
    If you haven’t begun cycle why not run some different compounds besides a bunch of test (the whole point of this thread)? Example let’s say you were going to run 750mg test weekly with an ai. Instead run 200mg test, 600mg EQ/primo (or maybe npp), and some mast with no AI.
    exactly!

    Tbh im gonna keep running an low dose AI but...
    I will switch to aromasin 12.5 mcg ed, im way too afraid of gyno since ive had the puberty one removed, and i tend to bloat a lot, i might be a bit sensitive to estro sides
    the only reason your having to run an AI and try and prevent bloat and gyno is because you'd be running compounds that are estrogenic in the first place.
    theres no need to run estrogenic compounds if your estrogen sensitive.


    its like saying your going to go ahead and keep taking an aspirin every day for your headache, when the only reason you have a headache is because your purposely hitting yourself in the head with the hammer . forget the damn aspirin and just get rid of the hammer
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    Quote Originally Posted by balance View Post
    If you haven’t begun cycle why not run some different compounds besides a bunch of test (the whole point of this thread)? Example let’s say you were going to run 750mg test weekly with an ai. Instead run 200mg test, 600mg EQ/primo (or maybe npp), and some mast with no AI.


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    Way too many compounds for me tbh, i made great gains on test and dbol only even with ai, i got paranoid after this thread that i could have made even more, but then again i dont think AI is an issue at such a low dose, i resprct GH but my opinion is that estro sensitive people should run AI and i dont get that much hate going on around this.
    Id never add more than a single new compound besides what ive already run

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myers View Post
    Way too many compounds for me tbh, i made great gains on test and dbol only even with ai, i got paranoid after this thread that i could have made even more, but then again i dont think AI is an issue at such a low dose, i resprct GH but my opinion is that estro sensitive people should run AI and i dont get that much hate going on around this.
    Id never add more than a single new compound besides what ive already run
    theres new research coming out , and some books that will be out soon as well presenting this research that basically points out that AI's are some of worst drugs to use in bodybuilding or TRT . they cause a lot of health and even mental problems that a decade ago we were not aware of.

    heres just picture into this
    https://forums.steroid.com/anabolic-...l-villian.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myers View Post
    Way too many compounds for me tbh, i made great gains on test and dbol only even with ai, i got paranoid after this thread that i could have made even more, but then again i dont think AI is an issue at such a low dose
    test and dbol are the two most estrogenic compounds on earth . if you didn't get gyno running those together, then your clearly not estrogen sensitive or gyno prone (for guys that are genetically prone to gyno, an AI isn't going to help much)..

    but if you were thinking your E sensitive, then those are the two worse drugs you could possibly choose to run.

    it doesn't make sense for someone who thinks they are estrogen sensitive and gyno prone to run the two most estrogenic compounds , especially when there are 20+ better, more potent, safer, and non estrogenic compounds to run.

    ^ having said that ,, I like Test and Dbol . I have plenty of clients running that combo and I run it myself all the time . but the reason I pick them and run them together is FOR THE PURPOSE OF GETTING THE ESTROGEN (I want my estrogen levels to get 5x above normal while on that cycle) it would be self defeating to take an AI and blunt the effects of what test/dbol do in the first place
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    if Testosterone did not convert to estrogen at a high level like it does ,, then it would NOT be very anabolic . its the estrgeonic side of test that up regulates HGH and IGF production to build muscle tissue. its the estrogenic aspect of test that boosts and controls the male libido and sex drive (testosterone itself doesn't).. its the estrogenic side of test that helps up regulate nitric oxide and increase blood flow and vascularity.. its the estrogenic side that helps glucose metabolism, loading glycogen in muscle cells, and providing you with a pump at the gym (you ever wonder why you get massive pumps in the gym when taking Dbol , well its because Dbol is so damn estrogenic)

    so why take Test , then purposely take a drug (an AI) that blocks all these positive muscle building benefits that test has because of its conversion to estrogen.

    if you think its the androgenic aspect of test that builds muscle your wrong. in fact DHT (the androgen that test converts to) is NOT anabolic in muscle tissue. it can't be. because of an enzyme in muscle tissue known as 3hsd that binds to DHT in muscle tissue and renders it in active. it can't illicit any muscle building effects directly .

    its largely the estrogenic aspects of test that make test a good muscle builder
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    Quote Originally Posted by GearHeaded View Post
    test and dbol are the two most estrogenic compounds on earth . if you didn't get gyno running those together, then your clearly not estrogen sensitive or gyno prone (for guys that are genetically prone to gyno, an AI isn't going to help much)..

    but if you were thinking your E sensitive, then those are the two worse drugs you could possibly choose to run.

    it doesn't make sense for someone who thinks they are estrogen sensitive and gyno prone to run the two most estrogenic compounds , especially when there are 20+ better, more potent, safer, and non estrogenic compounds to run.

    ^ having said that ,, I like Test and Dbol . I have plenty of clients running that combo and I run it myself all the time . but the reason I pick them and run them together is FOR THE PURPOSE OF GETTING THE ESTROGEN (I want my estrogen levels to get 5x above normal while on that cycle) it would be self defeating to take an AI and blunt the effects of what test/dbol do in the first place
    Didnt havr any issues with 0.25 adex eod tbh, im also on trt nebido every 9 weeks, felt great, high estro messes with my head more than body
    Strength gains were great
    Ive been on these forums for a long time and ive never seen anyone advocating high estro till now
    Ive read many of austinites posts, seemed logical to me to use an AI
    GH, what do u think about our beginner cycle guides? That are posted here
    What about estro sides like water retention, bp increase from it, mood changes, and cancerogenic effect in men?
    Yes, there are other compounds that are DHT derivates or else
    Tbh i tried winny on my cut, in the end of it, prostate felt horrible

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myers View Post
    GH, what do u think about our beginner cycle guides? That are posted here
    well I'm not a beginner (I'm a coach) so I've never read them personally . but I've seen newbs that have posted cycles on here saying they are following the basic first time cycle lay out as it is laid out in the beginner cycle guides.

    they generally are going with a test only cycle and running a fairly decent dose of an AI , from day one.
    which imo is horrible advices and has messed peoples first cycles up over and over and over again.. I've seen over the years lots of guys run their basic first cycle like this, and not only get crap for gains , have a whole host of negative side effects that they could of avoided had they not went this route.

    you know how many guys on all the AAS forums across the web run this basic cycle, then 4 weeks in they are posting saying they feel like shit, they are tired and lethargic, their dick don't work etc. etc.. when in reality, 4 weeks into a test cycle you should feel like a million bucks. the reason they have all these negative sides and their cycle is shit is because they started taking an AI from day one.


    I've had a lot of clients that are complete newbs to AAS that I've helped with their first cycles. and never is an AI used from day one (again thats horrible advice imo) and they have all had amazing results . and not only the new users , of the 35 or so clients that I have currently that are running AAS, I think I have only one of them running an AI on their cycles . quite a few of these clients are members here, and they have went on record saying they have had amazing gains once they dropped their AI usage once signing up with me.. they are make some of the best gains in their lifting career now


    and on a side note - regarding beginner cycles . apart from AI usage . I think 'test only' cycles for a new AAS user are not the best choice at all.

    its like trying to teach a 16 year old kid how to drive in a 1938 4 speed Ford model T car ,, rather then teaching them in a 2019 car thats automatic and has all the safety features and ease of use features.

    I think Test only cycles is that old ford model T and its best used as a main cycle compound for more advanced users that already know how to drive



    edit - correction , I won't say that using an AI from day one of a long ester test only cycle is "horrible advice" ,, thats a stretch. I will say its un-informed and outdated advice derived from a mis understanding on the benefits of estrogen in AAS cycling (ie, nor realizing your estrogen is SUPPOSED to go up when your androgen levels elevate. thats how the body was designed to work and does work)
    Last edited by GearHeaded; 09-06-2019 at 08:30 AM.
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    in regards to you having never heard that estrogen is important to have elevated when on cycle and trying to grow (you've never heard of bodybuilders running birth control pills while on cycle to get their E levels raised even higher)..
    give this a read
    https://forums.steroid.com/anabolic-...c-hormone.html

    in regards to water retention as a 'negative side effect' of estrogen.. um I'm going to say for muscle building and putting on size, its a positive benefit, not a negative one. water retention helps build muscle.
    https://forums.steroid.com/anabolic-...pensation.html
    Last edited by GearHeaded; 09-06-2019 at 08:38 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GearHeaded View Post
    well I'm not a beginner (I'm a coach) so I've never read them personally . but I've seen newbs that have posted cycles on here saying they are following the basic first time cycle lay out as it is laid out in the beginner cycle guides.

    they generally are going with a test only cycle and running a fairly decent dose of an AI , from day one.
    which imo is horrible advices and has messed peoples first cycles up over and over and over again.. I've seen over the years lots of guys run their basic first cycle like this, and not only get crap for gains , have a whole host of negative side effects that they could of avoided had they not went this route.

    you know how many guys on all the AAS forums across the web run this basic cycle, then 4 weeks in they are posting saying they feel like shit, they are tired and lethargic, their dick don't work etc. etc.. when in reality, 4 weeks into a test cycle you should feel like a million bucks. the reason they have all these negative sides and their cycle is shit is because they started taking an AI from day one.


    I've had a lot of clients that are complete newbs to AAS that I've helped with their first cycles. and never is an AI used from day one (again thats horrible advice imo) and they have all had amazing results . and not only the new users , of the 35 or so clients that I have currently that are running AAS, I think I have only one of them running an AI on their cycles . quite a few of these clients are members here, and they have went on record saying they have had amazing gains once they dropped their AI usage once signing up with me.. they are make some of the best gains in their lifting career now


    and on a side note - regarding beginner cycles . apart from AI usage . I think 'test only' cycles for a new AAS user are not the best choice at all.

    its like trying to teach a 16 year old kid how to drive in a 1938 4 speed Ford model T car ,, rather then teaching them in a 2019 car thats automatic and has all the safety features and ease of use features.

    I think Test only cycles is that old ford model T and its best used as a main cycle compound for more advanced users that already know how to drive



    edit - correction , I won't say that using an AI from day one of a long ester test only cycle is "horrible advice" ,, thats a stretch. I will say its un-informed and outdated advice derived from a mis understanding on the benefits of estrogen in AAS cycling (ie, nor realizing your estrogen is SUPPOSED to go up when your androgen levels elevate. thats how the body was designed to work and does work)
    Isnt that what old school used to so, test deca dbol , without an ai? But upgraded stuff, i mean updated to 2k19 game rules lol
    Interesting, im tempted to go without an AI, or maybe run it at week 4 to 12
    I will pull bloods and see where my estro is atm, didnt in a while
    I was planning to go test 500mg week, anadrol 50mg for 4 weeks and maybe primo at 200mg/week, training wise focus is on back and shoulders
    I like to go in dept of everything, since im in a science department regarding molecular mechanicms of well biology lol, im planing a endocrinology master, so GH... Any articles you got on this or personal in dept experience id love to read
    Respect man, debates like this is what i love about these forums

    Bbing got me interested in Endocrinology and id love to be able to help people and get educated as much as possible, so bring it on, always eager to learn more if its facts and experiment based
    Last edited by Myers; 09-06-2019 at 08:41 AM.
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    heres a guy , Jordan Peters, that was 140 pounds in college that bulked up to being a 300 pound pro bodybuilder in only like 7 years.. he is an advocate for NOT using AI's, and the only time he has used them is very shortly in contest prep , but never used them when trying to put on muscle.
    Attachment 177129
    no AI's and elevated estrogen levels helped him grow obviously (which is the reason cattle are injected with a shit ton of estrogen as well when they give them androgens ,, because estrogen is very anabolic when androgen levels are high)

    now here is your average steroid forum member who runs a few test only cycles every year and always runs an AI, after 7 years
    Attachment 177130

    ok I'm joking around a little with that last comment , but you guys that have been in the game for awhile and been around know exactly what I'm talking about

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myers View Post
    Isnt that what old school used to so, test deca dbol, without an ai? But upgraded stuff, i mean updated to 2k19 game rules lol
    well why do you think the old school guys were all huge and jacked and back then you could definitely tell who the juice heads were and who the nattys were .. where as now days, half the guys in the gym that don't even look like they lift are on gear. your average 150 pound college kid is on a gram of test and tren , but doesn't look like it . why ? cause they are all highly abusing AI's and crashing their E levels cause they are afraid of a little bit of water retention or getting gyno .
    its not the quality of the gear thats changed . its the introduction of AI's and their over use and abuse that are dramatically hindering gains. you can't grow without estrogen. the old school guys didn't worry about AI's (didn't have them for the most part) and they grew like crazy.
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    I'm not sure if any of you guys have ever noticed this .. I've noticed it first hand simply because I work with a lot of female clients.

    but a female can run a high dose of T3 and not lose any muscle. she keeps her fullness no problem even in a calorie deficit and trying to cut and being on 50mcg of T3 .. but then you hear all the time from guys who are in contest prep or cutting , running T3 and then complaining about all the muscle they are losing.. they will say things like "T3 doesn't distinguish between fat or muscle, it burns them both up" .

    well why doesn't T3 burn up the females muscle and only the male . my theory based on practical experience with people is that most guys that are losing muscle while running T3 are in a cutting or contest prep phase, and they are running AI's to keep estrogen and water retention low. its the low estrogen that is responsible for the muscle loss . the female has naturally high estrogen and the T3 doesn't cause her to lose muscle.. with low estrogen and a supraphysiological metabolism because of the T3 the guy loses muscle .
    thats because estrogen is anti catabolic and anabolic . estrogen plays a big role in glucose metabolism and keeps the muscle full and loaded with glycogen.

    when your a guy and your cutting, in a calorie deficit, doing cardio, and running a bunch of T3 with crashed or super low E levels because of taking an AI ,, your going to lose muscle. ditching the AI and keeping your E levels in a higher range in ratio with your androgen levels is going to aide you in retaining a lot more muscle while cutting.

    when dieting down and cutting , keep your E levels on the higher end guys. you'll retain a lot more muscle


    note- how do I know that estrogen plays such an important role in glucose metabolism (besides reading it in biology).. anecdotal evidence. I've seen it first hand and so have other bodybuilders and coaches. when a guy is a week out from a contest, depleted, and taking a bunch of anti estrogens to get 'dry' and then the day before the show he tries to carb load and fill out , but he can't fill out at all . his muscles are not taking in the glycogen.. thats because he crashed his estrogen . so now he may be 'dry' but he is going to look flat and soft because he can't carb load.
    don't crash your estrogen going into a show guys ! you need normal E levels to carb load and fill out the muscle
    Last edited by GearHeaded; 09-06-2019 at 09:12 AM.

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    and why do most guys get so big and full and round and super strong in the gym and get massive pumps in the gym when running a high dose of dbol ??

    yep, you guessed it. its the estrogen playing a big role in all that. and Dbol converts to a more "powerful" ie bio available, form of estrogen that is 5x more "potent" then what test converts to . so that estrogen is playing a key role in the positive attributes of what Dbol provides .

    now why would you want to go taking a Dbol, and then a bunch of AI just to blunt and mute the powerful effects Dbol is meant to provide in the first place


    sure some guys have ran plenty of dbol with an AI and got great results.. but they were likely not taking much of an AI and the E levels were still elevating.. but again, point of this thread is if you don't want the elevated E levels and all the benefits that come with it, then why are you running a super estrogenic compound like Dbol in the first place , why not just run Tbol instead and not mess with an AI

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myers View Post
    Yes, there are other compounds that are DHT derivates or else
    Tbh i tried winny on my cut, in the end of it, prostate felt horrible
    this is irrelevant to the topic at hand,, but figured I'd mention this.

    this is the reason you had prostate issues. and its NOT because Winstrol is a "DHT" like most guys think . Winstrol is not a DHT, its a derivative of DHT and as such it has already structurally been 5 alpha reduced ,, therefore it can no longer be that in the body and so its impossible for it to convert to DHT.

    but, the reason you had DHT side effects was because Winstrol can fairy dramatically reduce SHBG (sex hormone binding globulin) which is a sex-streroid binding protein that binds up 'estrogen' 'testosterone ' and 'Dht' and holds onto them in "storage" (sort of speak) . now more then anything SHBG binds up DHT mainly. so when your SHBG gets significantly lowered your suddenly have an onslaught of DHT free and available..

    so it was the DHT that you already had stored and available in your body that caused the prostate issue , and not the Winstrol itself directly

    now lowering SHBG is generally thought of as a good thing cause you'll then have more free androgens and estrogen which is true, but if your DHT sensitive be aware as you'll also have much more available DHT.


    this can also be a tool for your "tool" though as well.. if your running say for example deca , and having issues getting hard in the bedroom, then you can always add some Winstrol or Proviron to lower your SHBG and free up more DHT (which plays a big role in the erection process).
    deca coverts to DHN, not DHT.. and DHN will bind to DHT receptors and 'tie them up' yet not illicit any androgenic effects. so over time you get less and less DHT available to you when on a deca cycle.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GearHeaded View Post
    this is irrelevant to the topic at hand,, but figured I'd mention this.

    this is the reason you had prostate issues. and its NOT because Winstrol is a "DHT" like most guys think . Winstrol is not a DHT, its a derivative of DHT and as such it has already structurally been 5 alpha reduced ,, therefore it can no longer be that in the body and so its impossible for it to convert to DHT.

    but, the reason you had DHT side effects was because Winstrol can fairy dramatically reduce SHBG (sex hormone binding globulin) which is a sex-streroid binding protein that binds up 'estrogen' 'testosterone ' and 'Dht' and holds onto them in "storage" (sort of speak) . now more then anything SHBG binds up DHT mainly. so when your SHBG gets significantly lowered your suddenly have an onslaught of DHT free and available..

    so it was the DHT that you already had stored and available in your body that caused the prostate issue , and not the Winstrol itself directly

    now lowering SHBG is generally thought of as a good thing cause you'll then have more free androgens and estrogen which is true, but if your DHT sensitive be aware as you'll also have much more available DHT.


    this can also be a tool for your "tool" though as well.. if your running say for example deca , and having issues getting hard in the bedroom, then you can always add some Winstrol or Proviron to lower your SHBG and free up more DHT (which plays a big role in the erection process).
    deca coverts to DHN, not DHT.. and DHN will bind to DHT receptors and 'tie them up' yet not illicit any androgenic effects. so over time you get less and less DHT available to you when on a deca cycle.
    You've said all this before but that needs to be easy to find.
    Lot of info here so I will blog it I guess.

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    Great info, thank you GH
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    Can we make this a sticky since all our stickies are old and out dated?
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    Quote Originally Posted by i_SLAM_cougars View Post
    Can we make this a sticky since all our stickies are old and out dated?
    Agree

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    Quote Originally Posted by Obs View Post
    Agree
    Especially when everyone still refers every newbie here to that useless first cycle thread, which literally contradicts this.

    The irony of coming to a steroid site, to learn about steroids , only to be treated like an asshole and told to “do your own research” (which is what you were trying to do when you came here), and not use steroids .

    BUT... If you’re going to use steroids instead of us actually helping you, we’ll all direct you to this one thread where someone figured out how to waste 3 months of your life doing a somewhat useless amount of testosterone , while still managing to break the bank.

    So in summary:
    - $60 worth of test
    - $600 worth of blood tests
    - $150 worth of AIs
    - $60 worth of HCG
    - $100 worth of clomid and nolvadex

    - and a bunch of buttholes saying that if you use more than one compound on your first cycle you will grow enormous boobs and die.
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    Quote Originally Posted by i_SLAM_cougars View Post
    Especially when everyone still refers every newbie here to that useless first cycle thread, which literally contradicts this.

    The irony of coming to a steroid site, to learn about steroids , only to be treated like an asshole and told to “do your own research” (which is what you were trying to do when you came here), and not use steroids .

    BUT... If you’re going to use steroids instead of us actually helping you, we’ll all direct you to this one thread where someone figured out how to waste 3 months of your life doing a somewhat useless amount of testosterone , while still managing to break the bank.

    So in summary:
    - $60 worth of test
    - $600 worth of blood tests
    - $150 worth of AIs
    - $60 worth of HCG
    - $100 worth of clomid and nolvadex

    - and a bunch of buttholes saying that if you use more than one compound on your first cycle you will grow enormous boobs and die.
    Lmfao

    Euros...
    Cant live with em, cant.... ...
    Would shoot them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by i_SLAM_cougars View Post
    Especially when everyone still refers every newbie here to that useless first cycle thread, which literally contradicts this.

    The irony of coming to a steroid site, to learn about steroids , only to be treated like an asshole and told to “do your own research” (which is what you were trying to do when you came here), and not use steroids .

    BUT... If you’re going to use steroids instead of us actually helping you, we’ll all direct you to this one thread where someone figured out how to waste 3 months of your life doing a somewhat useless amount of testosterone , while still managing to break the bank.

    So in summary:
    - $60 worth of test
    - $600 worth of blood tests
    - $150 worth of AIs
    - $60 worth of HCG
    - $100 worth of clomid and nolvadex

    - and a bunch of buttholes saying that if you use more than one compound on your first cycle you will grow enormous boobs and die.
    drug dealers make the biggest profit margins on AI's and then PCT.. so its not surprising you see forums (filled with drug dealing reps) pushing AI use big time.
    guys complain about how pricey VAR is (which is a tried and true and virtually side effect free AAS that works great),, but they are spending way more on shitty AI's that don't do shit for them other then hinder their gains.
    makes no sense

    and as for PCT.. the idea that you have to run pct after every single cycle you do is way overkill. not necessary at all. but again like AI's, pct drugs have high profit margins . so If you can sell a PCT protocol with every AAS cycle you sell, your $$$ income as a dealer goes up

    and they try to dress it up like they are being a good guy trying to help you out and will propagate shit you hear said over and over again "make sure you have your AI and your PCT on hand and ready to go before you start your cycle" . nice sales technique!
    again, if you ran 5 cycles per year, running 5 pct protools and buying all those pct drugs to do that, is totally overkill and your just getting dupped by a smooth salesmen of pct drugs

    the only reason some of these things are being advocated (like running AI's with all your cycles and doing a pct with every cycle you do) is because of the drug dealers that sale these drugs..

    why aren't these guys advocating the use of insulin with every cycle you do ? I mean shit insulin is one of the most anabolic hormones on the planet.. why aren't they shoving insulin down peoples throats?
    because insulin is dirt cheap and a 3 month supply of it can be picked up at Wal-Mart for $23 !! thats why.. believe me, if they could make huge profit margins on it like they do AI's and PCT drugs, they would be pushing it big time
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    My buddy’s trainer has him run like 2mg of arimidex a day the week leading up to a show. It makes my joints hurt just thinking about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GearHeaded View Post
    drug dealers make the biggest profit margins on AI's and then PCT.. so its not surprising you see forums (filled with drug dealing reps) pushing AI use big time.
    guys complain about how pricey VAR is (which is a tried and true and virtually side effect free AAS that works great),, but they are spending way more on shitty AI's that don't do shit for them other then hinder their gains.
    makes no sense

    and as for PCT.. the idea that you have to run pct after every single cycle you do is way overkill. not necessary at all. but again like AI's, pct drugs have high profit margins . so If you can sell a PCT protocol with every AAS cycle you sell, your $$$ income as a dealer goes up

    and they try to dress it up like they are being a good guy trying to help you out and will propagate shit you hear said over and over again "make sure you have your AI and your PCT on hand and ready to go before you start your cycle" . nice sales technique!
    again, if you ran 5 cycles per year, running 5 pct protools and buying all those pct drugs to do that, is totally overkill and your just getting dupped by a smooth salesmen of pct drugs

    the only reason some of these things are being advocated (like running AI's with all your cycles and doing a pct with every cycle you do) is because of the drug dealers that sale these drugs..

    why aren't these guys advocating the use of insulin with every cycle you do ? I mean shit insulin is one of the most anabolic hormones on the planet.. why aren't they shoving insulin down peoples throats?
    because insulin is dirt cheap and a 3 month supply of it can be picked up at Wal-Mart for $23 !! thats why.. believe me, if they could make huge profit margins on it like they do AI's and PCT drugs, they would be pushing it big time
    Funny thing is ive got a different issue, i can get all basic stuff like AIs, test e, nolva cheap as hell, pharm grade, u can buy everything in a local pharmacy without issues

    For instance, 12 weeks of test 500mg week, and ai costs me around 40 euros

    Things i need to get from dealers are not cheap lol, at least for our standards here

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    Priceless info GH. Info I can not find anywhere else on any PED related sites. Post #18 helped me understand what makes Testosterone so powerful.

    Rapping up my 1st week of my 1st cycle. The pumps I get from lifting is nothing short of fantastic. I'm starting to get that "look" and it's only just some water that's started to fill up in the muscles and it's only been 1 week! Eating at or a little less than 1g p/lb of bodyweight of protein and going heavy on these carbs - potatoes, oats, pasta, rice. I'd go less on the protein, but it's too easy for me to over eat on protein. I'm doing 500mg p/week of Enanthate . So far I feel great. I can get into a much deeper sleep. I'm hoping I'm not Estrogen sensitive. Your info regarding Estrogen really hammers to me how powerful Estrogen really is. My plan is not to take an AI for this 15-16 week cycle. We'll see.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GearHeaded View Post
    ok so I've said this over and over again on here. but I figured I'd make a post and make it as clear as possible, especially to our newer members on here.

    so you want to run a cycle BUT , for whatever reason you don't want elevated estrogen (which is in itself silly being elevated estrogen in the presence of elevated androgens is extremely anabolic and is the whole reason your cycling to begin with .. but whatever, for some reason you want to keep your E levels low while on cycle) .

    ok , I get it . you want to run a cycle but keep E levels in the low range. fine. but why in the hell are you picking Test and Dbol as your compounds to run !! then choosing to run a whole bunch of an AI or Nolva just to block estrogen.
    thats completely defeating the purpose of those two compounds . you run those compounds FOR the estrogen conversion to begin with.

    it makes zero sense to run test only cycles or test and dbol cycles , when you want to keep E levels low . thats like deciding to buy a Ferrari and then put a speed governor on it (like an AI) that only lets it go 40 miles per hour.. lol whats the point.
    the reason you run test and dbol is FOR the estrogen conversion in the first place! if your going to run those compounds, then block the estrogen (which is what those compounds do) then your defeating the purpose.


    are you not aware that a majority of the AAS available to us don't convert to estrogen in the first place ! ?

    if your going to run a cycle and you want to keep E levels low (which again I don't think is optimal , unless your getting on stage) then design your cycle using non estrgeonic compounds . its that simple guys !!!
    and screw the idea of test only cycles and test has to be the foundation of every cycle you do.. thats BS. if you want to keep E levels on the low end, then simply don't mess with test, or just keep it super low.

    look , heres a list of a ton of compounds you can run and stacks you can put together without having to worry about elevated estrogen . none of these drugs would require an AI (in fact some of them actually lower E levels).
    - Primo
    - Anavar
    - Masteron
    - DHB
    - Stenbolone
    - Wnstrol
    - Deca
    - NPP
    - Tren
    - Eq
    - halotestin
    - superdrol
    etc etc.. I could go on. point being, you can run AAS for years without ever having to touch an AI or estrogenic compound

    why everyone, that wants to keep E levels low, keeps reverting to test only cycles is just ridiculous . expand your horizons.. run actual anabolic steroids, that provide more results and less sides then test, and don't convert a ton over to estrogen (if thats your goal ,, again I personally think estrogen is useful and should be part of most cycles.. but to each their own)
    This made me think of something interesting. So to play the devils advocate here don’t you think there are other benefits to these estrogenic compounds like test and Dbol and Ment other than just elevating E? So let’s say I take MENT and an AI(not even sure an AI is applicable cuz I don’t think MENT aromatizes but acts on the estrogen receptor itself?) will the MENT not still have plenty of anabolic effect even without the E?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myers View Post
    Way too many compounds for me tbh, i made great gains on test and dbol only even with ai, i got paranoid after this thread that i could have made even more, but then again i dont think AI is an issue at such a low dose, i resprct GH but my opinion is that estro sensitive people should run AI and i dont get that much hate going on around this.
    Id never add more than a single new compound besides what ive already run
    AI's are extremely toxic on your body. I would do chemotherapy before using an AI again and that's not an exaggeration. If you want to limit yourself to two compounds then simply run 150mg of Test + 600-800mg of Primo.
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    Masteron E is dosed typically 200mg or 250mg/mL and is going to be priced somewhere between $70-$85 per 10mL bottle (depending on Lab, country, etc).

    So that dose of Mast is going to accomplish the same thing as an AI more or less and cost LESS than buying a coffee everyday from McDonalds or wherever.
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