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Thread: What are the best hepatic protectors ????

  1. #1
    anabolictheviking's Avatar
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    What are the best hepatic protectors ????

    I am opening this topic to ask: What are the best liver protectors regarding the use of hepatotoxic steroids?
    Last edited by anabolictheviking; 09-13-2019 at 01:47 PM.

  2. #2
    HoldMyBeer is online now Productive Member
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    NAC and tudca
    Take away from training. I forget why
    Bonus: don't take antioxidants around trainer either
    Bonus 2: don't take nsaids after training either

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    Never hear of Nac and Tudca!

    Quote Originally Posted by HoldMyBeer View Post
    NAC and tudca
    Take away from training. I forget why
    Bonus: don't take antioxidants around trainer either
    Bonus 2: don't take nsaids after training either



    Never hear of Nac and Tudca!

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    NAC , Milk Thistle, Tudca, Glutathione injection ..

    but as good as those things all are , its unlikely you have a whole lot of burden on the liver from AAS usage. most guys that drink 3 beers per night and eat McDonalds every day have more liver stress then taking AAS.

    if you can afford to add liver sups to your protocol, more power to you. but its not a "necessity" like liver support supplement companies want you to believe it is

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    Sulforaphane helps with a whole host of issues including the liver (and many of the issues in the posts tonight). However, supplementation is expensive. The best way to attain it is to by brocoli seeds and grow the sprouts yourself in mason jars. This is cheaper than any of the medications used to treat the diseases that sulforaphane helps.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Yh4fjOFfDo This is the short version of a Joe Rogan podcast with one of the leaders in this area.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxM_CLsvieE Long version

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    Injectable Glutathione and Udoxyl
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    Quote Originally Posted by GearHeaded View Post
    NAC , Milk Thistle, Tudca, Glutathione injection ..

    but as good as those things all are , its unlikely you have a whole lot of burden on the liver from AAS usage. most guys that drink 3 beers per night and eat McDonalds every day have more liver stress then taking AAS.

    if you can afford to add liver sups to your protocol, more power to you. but its not a "necessity" like liver support supplement companies want you to believe it is
    I respectfully disagree. I used to get bloods frequently and liver values would be out of range.
    This last time I took small dosage of Halo for three weeks . 7 weeks later my liver values were still slightly out. Out enough for the Dr to want a repeat test. I was taking NAC and TUDCA both on and after cycle.

    NOTE: I was told not to take milk thistle while cycling, it interfered with the AAS.

    J


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    Quote Originally Posted by charger69 View Post
    I respectfully disagree. I used to get bloods frequently and liver values would be out of range.
    This last time I took small dosage of Halo for three weeks . 7 weeks later my liver values were still slightly out. Out enough for the Dr to want a repeat test. I was taking NAC and TUDCA both on and after cycle.

    NOTE: I was told not to take milk thistle while cycling, it interfered with the AAS.

    if you were taking one of the most liver toxic compounds out there, halo, and your liver values were only slightly out of range . then that actually proves my point that AAS is not that liver toxic.. heck just being in a calorie deficit and training hard in the gym, or one night of binge drinking, will significantly raise liver values.

    95% of the AAS out there is not really posing any sort of significant liver issues . if they did, then all of us juice heads and bodybuilders over the years would be suffering from liver problems . but none of us do. heck back in the 80s guys used to pop 200mg a dbol a day. they are still around and kicking just fine with no liver issues

    plenty of people who do not use AAS or never have used AAS are walking around with elevated liver enzymes


    thats not to downplay the fact that abusing some liver toxic oral steroids can definitely negatively impact liver health. its just the overall idea that steroids in general are bad for your liver , just not true (some steroids are actually prescribed to help treat liver disease, like Var)
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    Quote Originally Posted by GearHeaded View Post
    if you were taking one of the most liver toxic compounds out there, halo, and your liver values were only slightly out of range . then that actually proves my point that AAS is not that liver toxic.. heck just being in a calorie deficit and training hard in the gym, or one night of binge drinking, will significantly raise liver values.

    95% of the AAS out there is not really posing any sort of significant liver issues . if they did, then all of us juice heads and bodybuilders over the years would be suffering from liver problems . but none of us do. heck back in the 80s guys used to pop 200mg a dbol a day. they are still around and kicking just fine with no liver issues

    plenty of people who do not use AAS or never have used AAS are walking around with elevated liver enzymes


    thats not to downplay the fact that abusing some liver toxic oral steroids can definitely negatively impact liver health. its just the overall idea that steroids in general are bad for your liver , just not true (some steroids are actually prescribed to help treat liver disease, like Var)
    I would actually like to see what the real world toxicity of steroids compares too. I’ve always known it was over hyped, but people demonize orals, and I think it’s uncalled for. I love oral. If you want IMMEDIATE results, throwing in most orals provides that. How can you not appreciate that?

    and this 200mg of dbol thing... sounds like a challenge. A challenge accepted...

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    Quote Originally Posted by i_SLAM_cougars View Post
    I would actually like to see what the real world toxicity of steroids compares too. I’ve always known it was over hyped, but people demonize orals, and I think it’s uncalled for. I love oral. If you want IMMEDIATE results, throwing in most orals provides that. How can you not appreciate that?

    and this 200mg of dbol thing... sounds like a challenge. A challenge accepted...
    agree with you on the orals . especially in compound rotation and phase cycling protocols , its very easy to rotate compounds when orals are involved. its very easy to add synergy to a certain stack with orals.

    heck even off cycle cruising.. when I ran a no test based cruise this summer , it was very convenient just to throw some Dbol in to get the estrogen I needed.
    orals are a super useful tool imo

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    Quote Originally Posted by GearHeaded View Post
    agree with you on the orals . especially in compound rotation and phase cycling protocols , its very easy to rotate compounds when orals are involved. its very easy to add synergy to a certain stack with orals.
    I don’t think there’s any other way to cycle. It seemed a little complicated until you broke it down for me, but I can’t really fathom running a traditional cycle now, unless I’m just bridging cycles... which still makes makes it not a traditional cycle anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GearHeaded View Post
    if you were taking one of the most liver toxic compounds out there, halo, and your liver values were only slightly out of range . then that actually proves my point that AAS is not that liver toxic.. heck just being in a calorie deficit and training hard in the gym, or one night of binge drinking, will significantly raise liver values.

    95% of the AAS out there is not really posing any sort of significant liver issues . if they did, then all of us juice heads and bodybuilders over the years would be suffering from liver problems . but none of us do. heck back in the 80s guys used to pop 200mg a dbol a day. they are still around and kicking just fine with no liver issues

    plenty of people who do not use AAS or never have used AAS are walking around with elevated liver enzymes


    thats not to downplay the fact that abusing some liver toxic oral steroids can definitely negatively impact liver health. its just the overall idea that steroids in general are bad for your liver , just not true (some steroids are actually prescribed to help treat liver disease, like Var)
    That was slightly out after 7 weeks of discontinued use. IE. Almost 2 months of being clean and taking TUDCA and NAC and it still was out.
    The previous time I had bloods at 4 weeks and they the values were terrible.
    I know that HALO is one of the harshest, but still thatís a long ass time.


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    Quote Originally Posted by charger69 View Post
    That was slightly out after 7 weeks of discontinued use. IE. Almost 2 months of being clean and taking TUDCA and NAC and it still was out.
    The previous time I had bloods at 4 weeks and they the values were terrible.
    I know that HALO is one of the harshest, but still that’s a long ass time.
    if it was this long after the fact, this would actually lead me to believe your liver enzyme elevation was not due to the Halo at all , but something else going on.
    the way liver enzyme elevation generally works is from the stress of detoxifying a hepatoxic compound while that compound is active. so for example, take 200mg of Dbol and 500mg of Tylenol and then go get blood work 6 hours later and enzyme levels are likely going to be way elevated. but wait until those things clear and get blood work done 7 days later, and enzymes levels are likely going to be just fine.

    enzymes elevate during the detoxifying process. if your 7 weeks removed from using Halo, and your liver is no longer detoxifying it, then liver enzymes should be in normal range . unless your liver is dealing with something else it was detoxifying at the time of the blood work .. like alcohol, like McDonalds, like some other OTC medicine . or it could of simply been that you did not take a week off from heavy training before the blood work and the blood work showed a false positive (the blood work can't distinguish enzymes that are coming from the liver or from breaking down of muscle tissue)

    being that far removed from Halo use, I doubt it was the Halo that caused the elevation in enzymes.. plenty of people that don't ever touch AAS and drink beer on the weekends or eat fast food every day or just take Tylenol for pain or other OTC meds , or script meds (like some BP meds) , are walking around with elevated liver enzymes.

    again its the detoxification process itself that elevates enzymes . your body was done doing that 7 weeks prior. which is why I would venture to say that something else was causing the elevation of livers enzymes at the time of the blood work. .
    now there is no doubt had you got blood work done with Halo active and in your system enzymes would likely be elevated (because the liver would actively be detoxifying it and breaking the halo down)

  14. #14
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    You guys ever use Cheque drops ? I only ask cause Gear mentioned them. I didn’t even think they existed anymore. I doubt they have any use for muscle building, but if you ever want to set a PR lift, or fight... everybody, they are (or were) the real deal. I’m pretty sure they’re the reason the term “Roid Rage ” even exists.
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    Quote Originally Posted by i_SLAM_cougars View Post
    You guys ever use Cheque drops? I only ask cause Gear mentioned them. I didn’t even think they existed anymore. I doubt they have any use for muscle building, but if you ever want to set a PR lift, or fight... everybody, they are (or were) the real deal. I’m pretty sure they’re the reason the term “Roid Rage” even exists.
    Mibolerone .. one of only a few oral 19 nors. a veterinary drug. not much use in bodybuilding imo.. aggression and agitation alongside high hepatoxicity. never something I wanted to mess with. would rather go with methyl tren over it cause its more anabolic (another oral 19 nor)
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    Quote Originally Posted by GearHeaded View Post
    Mibolerone.. one of only a few oral 19 nors. a veterinary drug. not much use in bodybuilding imo.. aggression and agitation alongside high hepatoxicity. never something I wanted to mess with. would rather go with methyl tren over it cause its more anabolic (another oral 19 nor)
    Got another one for you. So a few years back one of my buddies scored dimethyl Tren . Is that what I think it is? Someone double alkalated it? I know the serving size was ridiculously small, which I thought sort of defeated the purpose. I thought maybe it cut down on liver toxicity because the dose was so small, but in reality after about a week he could feel his liver. So I’m guessing the double methyl makes multiplies the toxicity substantially. Any real world experience?

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    never heard of dimethyl tren . but even methyl tren is dosed pretty low. 500mcg to start.. though I think going up to 1.5mg is fine.

    this is another compound that people confuse as just being Tren, but in oral form . but not true. just like Dbol is not simply oral EQ (even though Dbol is just methyl eq). takes on different characteristics because of how the liver deals with some of these drugs and the metabolites that are produced.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by GearHeaded View Post
    never heard of dimethyl tren . but even methyl tren is dosed pretty low. 500mcg to start.. though I think going up to 1.5mg is fine.

    this is another compound that people confuse as just being Tren, but in oral form . but not true. just like Dbol is not simply oral EQ (even though Dbol is just methyl eq). takes on different characteristics because of how the liver deals with some of these drugs and the metabolites that are produced.
    Okay, yeah the dose for this was like 50mcg. I doubt it’s practical for use, or everyone would use it, but it’s got my curiosity now

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    I think certain oral steroids are completely toxic to the liver. Just use bodybuilder Andreas Munzer as an example. At autopsy, 50 whole Halotestin tablets were found. Other than that, his liver had a giant tumor. Many current steroid users are afraid of oral steroids, a good reason, they are harmful to the liver and kidneys.

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    Quote Originally Posted by anabolictheviking View Post
    I think certain oral steroids are completely toxic to the liver. Just use bodybuilder Andreas Munzer as an example. At autopsy, 50 whole Halotestin tablets were found. Other than that, his liver had a giant tumor. Many current steroid users are afraid of oral steroids, a good reason, they are harmful to the liver and kidneys.
    50 whole Holatestin found in his system eh .. sounds like a suicide attempt then

    the 'dosage' is what dictates the poison or wither something is toxic or not . guarantee you can shut down your kidneys and die faster from drinking too much water in one sitting then you can taking normals dosages of AAS. drinking too much water in one sitting will kill you in about 12 hours .. does that mean 'water' is completely kidney toxic . no. its the dosage that makes the poison.
    2 glasses of wine has health benefits . 3 bottles of wine consumed within 30 minutes can kill you . its all a matter of dosage

    1 halo per day for 3 weeks is totally reasonable and your liver will be just fine . 50 halo tabs in one sitting , thats a suicide attempt.

    heck you can take cyanide poison every single day and be ok . its only when you take the lethal 'dosage' of cyanide that it actually becomes a poison.
    same thing with water . too much at once and it can kill you rather quickly.
    2 Tylenol will help a headache , 20 Tylenol may kill you.
    Last edited by GearHeaded; 09-23-2019 at 09:09 PM.
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  21. #21
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    The liver is the largest organ in the body, with over 500 well-known and important functions to the body, including storing and metabolizing vitamins, plasma protein synthesis, detoxification of organic or external chemical toxins, bacterial filtration, hydrosaline balance control and acid-base, synthesis of cholesterol and bile salts.
    Any drug taken orally, rectally or parenterally, passes through the liver and it should be remembered that even medications, "in correct therapeutic doses are remedies, in low doses do not work and in high doses are toxic (poisons !!!)"
    .

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    Quote Originally Posted by GearHeaded View Post
    if it was this long after the fact, this would actually lead me to believe your liver enzyme elevation was not due to the Halo at all , but something else going on.
    the way liver enzyme elevation generally works is from the stress of detoxifying a hepatoxic compound while that compound is active. so for example, take 200mg of Dbol and 500mg of Tylenol and then go get blood work 6 hours later and enzyme levels are likely going to be way elevated. but wait until those things clear and get blood work done 7 days later, and enzymes levels are likely going to be just fine.

    enzymes elevate during the detoxifying process. if your 7 weeks removed from using Halo, and your liver is no longer detoxifying it, then liver enzymes should be in normal range . unless your liver is dealing with something else it was detoxifying at the time of the blood work .. like alcohol, like McDonalds, like some other OTC medicine . or it could of simply been that you did not take a week off from heavy training before the blood work and the blood work showed a false positive (the blood work can't distinguish enzymes that are coming from the liver or from breaking down of muscle tissue)

    being that far removed from Halo use, I doubt it was the Halo that caused the elevation in enzymes.. plenty of people that don't ever touch AAS and drink beer on the weekends or eat fast food every day or just take Tylenol for pain or other OTC meds , or script meds (like some BP meds) , are walking around with elevated liver enzymes.

    again its the detoxification process itself that elevates enzymes . your body was done doing that 7 weeks prior. which is why I would venture to say that something else was causing the elevation of livers enzymes at the time of the blood work. .
    now there is no doubt had you got blood work done with Halo active and in your system enzymes would likely be elevated (because the liver would actively be detoxifying it and breaking the halo down)
    I thought I had an explanation, now you have me worried.


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    Quote Originally Posted by charger69 View Post
    I thought I had an explanation, now you have me worried.


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    Next time you visit your doctor, head to Gearheaded first lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by charger69 View Post
    I thought I had an explanation, now you have me worried.


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    Could just be old age...

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    Quote Originally Posted by GearHeaded View Post
    if you were taking one of the most liver toxic compounds out there, halo, and your liver values were only slightly out of range . then that actually proves my point that AAS is not that liver toxic.. heck just being in a calorie deficit and training hard in the gym, or one night of binge drinking, will significantly raise liver values.

    95% of the AAS out there is not really posing any sort of significant liver issues . if they did, then all of us juice heads and bodybuilders over the years would be suffering from liver problems . but none of us do. heck back in the 80s guys used to pop 200mg a dbol a day. they are still around and kicking just fine with no liver issues

    plenty of people who do not use AAS or never have used AAS are walking around with elevated liver enzymes


    thats not to downplay the fact that abusing some liver toxic oral steroids can definitely negatively impact liver health. its just the overall idea that steroids in general are bad for your liver , just not true (some steroids are actually prescribed to help treat liver disease, like Var)
    I think the thing people never realize is that liver damage is caused by chronic stress to the liver. The liver is extremely resilient. It can bounce back from an acute stress relatively easily. The chronic damage from taking something liver toxic is what causes scarring(cirrhosis!). Alcoholics don’t die after drinking heavily for 12 weeks(average cycle length) they die from decades of drinking too much without giving their liver a chance to heal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Family_guy View Post
    I think the thing people never realize is that liver damage is caused by chronic stress to the liver. The liver is extremely resilient. It can bounce back from an acute stress relatively easily. The chronic damage from taking something liver toxic is what causes scarring(cirrhosis!). Alcoholics don’t die after drinking heavily for 12 weeks(average cycle length) they die from decades of drinking too much without giving their liver a chance to heal.
    exactly .

    when liver enzymes elevate the liver is just doing its JOB . its the job of the liver to detoxify our bodies. its going to get beat up some from life, but thats its job.

    its like playing football and having a football helmet. the helmet might get banged up some in the process, but thats its job, its protecting your head.. the football player does not need to go out of his way to protect his helmet per se.
    now you don't want to purposely take a sledge hammer to it , but you don't need to baby it either
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