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Thread: What to Swap and AI

  1. #1
    Crest is offline New Member
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    What to Swap and AI

    Hi friends

    Have some questions if I may.

    Firstly a little history. I've ran two cycles in the past, both Dbol + Test. 4 weeks at 30/40 per day kick-start and 12 weeks test-e at 500mg per week. Pretty standard beginner stuff. Last cycle 11 years ago. I'm currently 40.

    Now, when I last ran these cycles I felt great and also blew up. Quite literally ripping through shirts while sat at my desk in the office, which was awesome but not very discreet.

    No noticible sides during these cycles and recovered well with nova/clomid PCT. I did not use any estrogen blocker while on cycle.

    My next cycle is likely to be the same dbol/test as above but due to my current career status I'd rather not turn into a blimp on this occasion and I'd like to be able to fly under the radar, or at least seem semi-believable when explaining I'm eating massive and taking creatine.

    - Would you suggest taking out the dbol, changing the compound for kickstart or recommend something to keep the water weigh off a little?

    - Given I did not run AI in the past and suffered no estrogenic sides, does this mean I will also not suffer estro/gyno sides for this/future cycles?

    Thank you in advance

    Crest
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  2. #2
    songdog's Avatar
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    Always have everything on hand prior to your cycle.You didn't give us your stats so it's hard to tell you anything.But if your bf% is low Var would be good.Now I am hoping you been training because if not using aas can hurt your tendons and ligaments lifting the heavier weights.
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  3. #3
    teedoff is online now Associate Member
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    After 11 years off juice, why not try a cycle with just test and see what that gets you? Then you won't get the water bloat.
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crest View Post
    Hi friends

    Have some questions if I may.

    Firstly a little history. I've ran two cycles in the past, both Dbol + Test. 4 weeks at 30/40 per day kick-start and 12 weeks test-e at 500mg per week. Pretty standard beginner stuff. Last cycle 11 years ago. I'm currently 40.

    Now, when I last ran these cycles I felt great and also blew up. Quite literally ripping through shirts while sat at my desk in the office, which was awesome but not very discreet.

    No noticible sides during these cycles and recovered well with nova/clomid PCT. I did not use any estrogen blocker while on cycle.

    My next cycle is likely to be the same dbol/test as above but due to my current career status I'd rather not turn into a blimp on this occasion and I'd like to be able to fly under the radar, or at least seem semi-believable when explaining I'm eating massive and taking creatine.

    - Would you suggest taking out the dbol, changing the compound for kickstart or recommend something to keep the water weigh off a little?

    - Given I did not run AI in the past and suffered no estrogenic sides, does this mean I will also not suffer estro/gyno sides for this/future cycles?

    Thank you in advance

    Crest
    The dbol definitely blew you up,so if you aren't after that, drop it. Some people find tbol to be a "dryer dbol", it might be something to look at. Or just go with a dryer compound in general like var or masteron .

    Keep AI and pct drugs on hand, use as needed.

    I see no mention of HCG . Are you on TRT or ?
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  5. #5
    Chark's Avatar
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    - Would you suggest taking out the dbol , changing the compound for kickstart or recommend something to keep the water weigh off a little?

    I wouldn't run dbol in any circumstances. It's unfavored these days as it doesn't really have a unique attribute that another compound doesn't do better but with less side effects. It's not the safest in it's class, the best for growth, the best for body composition, or the best for strength.

    - Given I did not run AI in the past and suffered no estrogenic sides, does this mean I will also not suffer estro/gyno sides for this/future cycles?

    No, but it makes it less likely. I would just run test as high as you can handle without getting side effects and skip the orals or "kickstart"
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  6. #6
    Crest is offline New Member
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    Appreciate your responses guys. It'll try to respond all in one message!

    Yes I plan to have everything before starting. I'm just doing a little prep work as I do like to be prepared.

    I'm 173cm, 179lbs around 15% body fat.

    Realistically I'm probably looking at 6mnt from now. I was out for a while with shoulder injury so been taking that into account with my training for the last few months since been back in gym. As of January this year I've cranked the training up a notch. The weights really are increasing pretty quickly on my key lifts so I'll go with the natural momentum for the time being.

    I'm currently getting around 160-180g of protein per day across 6 meals. Am not counting the calories and just ensuring I'm getting carbs and fats in most meals along with protein. I'll likely tidy the diet up a little moving forwards, at the moment my goal is to pack on size and strength. Not sure if that's dirty or clean bulk? lol

    I'm not on TRT. As far as I'm aware, my T is good. I don't feel like it is low (according to what I read) but I'll have some blood work done soon. Generally I'm in good health and my recent blood tests for work were very good, but tests do not include hormone.

    Being 40. One of my concerns is how I might (or might not) bounce back. I think it would be wise to run HGC this time around as you mention. I read 200iu EOD?

    One of the things I loved about dbol was how good I felt. I read tbol can make you quite lethargic?

    Maybe you're right about just running test. Where my head is at about kick-start - when previously running these cycles at 12 weeks I felt like I was ending the cycle in 12th week just as I was starting to peak in strength amd that 'on' feeling. If I remove the kick-start and wait what 4 week for test-e to kick in it's really limiting the cycle to 8 weeks of growth?

    What are your thoughts?
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chark View Post
    - Would you suggest taking out the dbol , changing the compound for kickstart or recommend something to keep the water weigh off a little?

    I wouldn't run dbol in any circumstances. It's unfavored these days as it doesn't really have a unique attribute that another compound doesn't do better but with less side effects. It's not the safest in it's class, the best for growth, the best for body composition, or the best for strength.

    - Given I did not run AI in the past and suffered no estrogenic sides, does this mean I will also not suffer estro/gyno sides for this/future cycles?

    No, but it makes it less likely. I would just run test as high as you can handle without getting side effects and skip the orals or "kickstart"
    But it gives amazing pumps and it makes me happier than a mother lol just saying…I love dbol…lol
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  8. #8
    Family_guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crest View Post
    Appreciate your responses guys. It'll try to respond all in one message!

    Yes I plan to have everything before starting. I'm just doing a little prep work as I do like to be prepared.

    I'm 173cm, 179lbs around 15% body fat.

    Realistically I'm probably looking at 6mnt from now. I was out for a while with shoulder injury so been taking that into account with my training for the last few months since been back in gym. As of January this year I've cranked the training up a notch. The weights really are increasing pretty quickly on my key lifts so I'll go with the natural momentum for the time being.

    I'm currently getting around 160-180g of protein per day across 6 meals. Am not counting the calories and just ensuring I'm getting carbs and fats in most meals along with protein. I'll likely tidy the diet up a little moving forwards, at the moment my goal is to pack on size and strength. Not sure if that's dirty or clean bulk? lol

    I'm not on TRT. As far as I'm aware, my T is good. I don't feel like it is low (according to what I read) but I'll have some blood work done soon. Generally I'm in good health and my recent blood tests for work were very good, but tests do not include hormone.

    Being 40. One of my concerns is how I might (or might not) bounce back. I think it would be wise to run HGC this time around as you mention. I read 200iu EOD?

    One of the things I loved about dbol was how good I felt. I read tbol can make you quite lethargic?

    Maybe you're right about just running test. Where my head is at about kick-start - when previously running these cycles at 12 weeks I felt like I was ending the cycle in 12th week just as I was starting to peak in strength amd that 'on' feeling. If I remove the kick-start and wait what 4 week for test-e to kick in it's really limiting the cycle to 8 weeks of growth?

    What are your thoughts?
    I don’t think you can go wrong with just a Test cycle. Also maybe consider Tbol like Cy said but honeslty you’ll blow up on just Test I’m sure.

    Like someone else said just keep nolva/ai on hand in case but i wouldn’t use it unles you need to. If you start getting real sensitive(some sensitivity seems to be inevitable on a lot of AAS.) But if it becomes very pronounced head it’s off at the pass with Nolva. I wouldn’t run AI if it can be controlled with Serms like clomid or Nolvadex . In my experience I’ve never used an AI and had great results with both preventing and later controlling Gyno(fucking Deca gave me gyno but nolva knocked it right out).

    HCG dose I’ve always used was 250-500iu a week. That seemed to be enough to keep my grapes from becoming raisins lol

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chark View Post
    - Would you suggest taking out the dbol , changing the compound for kickstart or recommend something to keep the water weigh off a little?

    I wouldn't run dbol in any circumstances. It's unfavored these days as it doesn't really have a unique attribute that another compound doesn't do better but with less side effects. It's not the safest in it's class, the best for growth, the best for body composition, or the best for strength.

    - Given I did not run AI in the past and suffered no estrogenic sides, does this mean I will also not suffer estro/gyno sides for this/future cycles?

    No, but it makes it less likely. I would just run test as high as you can handle without getting side effects and skip the orals or "kickstart"
    What would you suggest in its place? Because that dbol strength is real for me!

  10. #10
    teedoff is online now Associate Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cylon357 View Post
    What would you suggest in its place? Because that dbol strength is real for me!
    Havent tried dbol ....simply because I havent been lean enough yet. But at my leanest, I did anavar only and loved it. So not sure how much better dbol is compared to var, but man I got strong on var....of course alot of that went away after cycle.

    I do have a stash of dbol though....maybe ill try it out someday.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by teedoff View Post
    Havent tried dbol ....simply because I havent been lean enough yet. But at my leanest, I did anavar only and loved it. So not sure how much better dbol is compared to var, but man I got strong on var....of course alot of that went away after cycle.

    I do have a stash of dbol though....maybe ill try it out someday.
    It's not quite right to compare them like that. Each one is an aas, but their mechanism of action, sides, and usage varies. Tailor you compound selection to your cycle goals.

    I know you know this, just putting it out there for someone who might not.
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  12. #12
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    After reading through this and seeing all the suggestions people gave. I've got a question.

    Realistically, what are you hoping to accomplish from this cycle? And don't say "recomp."

    Are you looking to put on more muscle? Trim down? If both, which one is the more pressing issue? Are you looking to put on strength? Endurance?

    Having concrete, realistic to attain goals will help make your research on what your cycle should look like a lot better. You should be trying to achieve your goals while minimizing sides and risks.
    Last edited by Honkey_Kong; 01-23-2023 at 04:05 AM.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crest View Post
    Appreciate your responses guys. It'll try to respond all in one message!

    Yes I plan to have everything before starting. I'm just doing a little prep work as I do like to be prepared.

    I'm 173cm, 179lbs around 15% body fat.

    Realistically I'm probably looking at 6mnt from now. I was out for a while with shoulder injury so been taking that into account with my training for the last few months since been back in gym. As of January this year I've cranked the training up a notch. The weights really are increasing pretty quickly on my key lifts so I'll go with the natural momentum for the time being.

    I'm currently getting around 160-180g of protein per day across 6 meals. Am not counting the calories and just ensuring I'm getting carbs and fats in most meals along with protein. I'll likely tidy the diet up a little moving forwards, at the moment my goal is to pack on size and strength. Not sure if that's dirty or clean bulk? lol

    I'm not on TRT. As far as I'm aware, my T is good. I don't feel like it is low (according to what I read) but I'll have some blood work done soon. Generally I'm in good health and my recent blood tests for work were very good, but tests do not include hormone.

    Being 40. One of my concerns is how I might (or might not) bounce back. I think it would be wise to run HGC this time around as you mention. I read 200iu EOD?

    One of the things I loved about dbol was how good I felt. I read tbol can make you quite lethargic?

    Maybe you're right about just running test. Where my head is at about kick-start - when previously running these cycles at 12 weeks I felt like I was ending the cycle in 12th week just as I was starting to peak in strength amd that 'on' feeling. If I remove the kick-start and wait what 4 week for test-e to kick in it's really limiting the cycle to 8 weeks of growth?

    What are your thoughts?
    A few quick thoughts...

    It sounds like you don't have a real clear goal. You say "pack on size and strength" and then mention "clean or dirty bulk"... Ugh, I hate those terms. Too often, a "dirty" bulk turns into "I'm going to eat all the junk food". That is, chips, ice cream, sodas, fried chicken, etc and people end up just becoming fat with rotten blood counts, shitty cholesterol, and pre-diabetes looming. In other words, even "dirty" bulks can be a challenge to do right.

    A better approach is to tighten the diet, determine caloric needs and then eat at a 500 to 1000 calorie a day surplus, with those calories coming from quality sources. Be specific with your goals, like "I want to add 30 pounds to my squat PR and add an inch to my quads" or something like that.

    I think the inclusion of HCG is a good plan, especially if you are not on TRT. Even on TRT, I prefer it as a "safety net" of sorts.

    You can kick start with an oral, it really depends on your goal as to which one is best suited. If you wanted to do a test only cycle, you could kick start with a blend of C and P, then drop the P 3 to 4 weeks in.

    Just so random words this morning...
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cylon357 View Post
    A few quick thoughts...

    It sounds like you don't have a real clear goal. You say "pack on size and strength" and then mention "clean or dirty bulk"... Ugh, I hate those terms. Too often, a "dirty" bulk turns into "I'm going to eat all the junk food". That is, chips, ice cream, sodas, fried chicken, etc and people end up just becoming fat with rotten blood counts, shitty cholesterol, and pre-diabetes looming. In other words, even "dirty" bulks can be a challenge to do right.

    A better approach is to tighten the diet, determine caloric needs and then eat at a 500 to 1000 calorie a day surplus, with those calories coming from quality sources. Be specific with your goals, like "I want to add 30 pounds to my squat PR and add an inch to my quads" or something like that.

    I think the inclusion of HCG is a good plan, especially if you are not on TRT. Even on TRT, I prefer it as a "safety net" of sorts.

    You can kick start with an oral, it really depends on your goal as to which one is best suited. If you wanted to do a test only cycle, you could kick start with a blend of C and P, then drop the P 3 to 4 weeks in.

    Just so random words this morning...
    Words of wisdom.

    I don’t believe in “dirty bulks” per se. I have a metabolism like a mofo yet I gained 30+lbs of relatively lean mass in like a year or whatever it was. I used Cys approach he mentioned here. Just google TDEE calculator and then use an app like My Fitness Pal which makes it super easy to track your meals. Highly recommend that app!

    So I think I was shooting for over 1000 cal surplus iirc. And I never really got fluffy even on dbol but I was also training hard as hell 6 days a week and active at work.

    Also Test Prop is awesome btw. People can say “it’s all the same just different esters” all they want but I beg to differ. Just my two cents.

    PS I had a more cohesive and coherent comment to make but I got distracted making breakfast so…ya hopefully this made some sense lol
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