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Thread: Gear and Keto

  1. #1
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    Gear and Keto

    Anyone have any experience with gear on Keto? My take: I have a ton of experience utilizing keto and cyclical keto (1 cheat day per week - my favorite). Amazing after all these years the "experts" still can't agree as to whether you can build muscle in ketosis or not! From my personal experience, YES YOU CAN. It is not the IDEAL diet for building muscle but you can (and I have) built muscle on it. From a body composition standpoint, I will trade IDEAL muscle building for the body composition advantages that keto provides, especially if I am satisfied with my current bulk (you wouldn't do it if your #1 goal was to add bulk).

    I've never done gear on keto though. Any experience? Seems like it would create a hyper hypertrophy and excellent physique shaping environment, especially with the weekly re-feeding and carb loading of cyclical keto.

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    I really can't say for sure.But I will say this if you are not eating enough aas isnt going to help.I seen a couple guys yrs ago in my gym running test and Drol.You couldn't even hardly tell they trained.
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    Quote Originally Posted by songdog View Post
    I really can't say for sure.But I will say this if you are not eating enough aas isnt going to help.I seen a couple guys yrs ago in my gym running test and Drol.You couldn't even hardly tell they trained.
    Great point! The key with building muscle on Keto is you MUST eat enough to be in a caloric surplus

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zenpump View Post
    Great point! The key with building muscle on Keto is you MUST eat enough to be in a caloric surplus
    How many carbs do you consume in a keto diet that builds muscle?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zenpump View Post
    Anyone have any experience with gear on Keto? My take: I have a ton of experience utilizing keto and cyclical keto (1 cheat day per week - my favorite). Amazing after all these years the "experts" still can't agree as to whether you can build muscle in ketosis or not! From my personal experience, YES YOU CAN. It is not the IDEAL diet for building muscle but you can (and I have) built muscle on it. From a body composition standpoint, I will trade IDEAL muscle building for the body composition advantages that keto provides, especially if I am satisfied with my current bulk (you wouldn't do it if your #1 goal was to add bulk).

    I've never done gear on keto though. Any experience? Seems like it would create a hyper hypertrophy and excellent physique shaping environment, especially with the weekly re-feeding and carb loading of cyclical keto.
    I think it’s relative to how much muscle you want to add.

    With TRT & Keto, I lost fat, gained muscle “size” & strength and did just fine functioning. However, my goals of muscle “size” & my overall physique differ from many, due to my age.

    You just have to know how your body responds and go with what works for you, not others.

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    To me its a no go for a bulk. Its fine for a cut, although im not a fan of replacing fats with carbs. Trying to bulk on a keto diet you would have to have enough calories to be in a surplus which is minimum 500 cals over maintenance and to get that with someone like me is just not healthy way too much protein is hell on the kidneys and that much fat would not be a good ideo on the cardiovascular system. I personally would never do it but to each their own. Someone say 180lbs could probably do it and be ok.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Honkey_Kong View Post
    How many carbs do you consume in a keto diet that builds muscle?
    Everyone is different. For me, I can stay in ketosis on about 60g carbs per day. I will eat these mostly before and after workouts.

    On my "cheat" day (once per week) I eat whatever I want but focus on "good" carbs. This cheat day coincides with my two heavy days (the cheat day starts and finishes on the firat heavy day. The next day, my second heavy day, im loaded up from the first day).

    I do one heavy day and one lighter, high rep day per week on a 1/2 body split (4 on, 3 off on average in a week)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuz View Post
    To me its a no go for a bulk. Its fine for a cut, although im not a fan of replacing fats with carbs. Trying to bulk on a keto diet you would have to have enough calories to be in a surplus which is minimum 500 cals over maintenance and to get that with someone like me is just not healthy way too much protein is hell on the kidneys and that much fat would not be a good ideo on the cardiovascular system. I personally would never do it but to each their own. Someone say 180lbs could probably do it and be ok.
    You're eating the same amountnof protein you normally would...you're just cutting the carbs and adding more low carb selections such as vegetables

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zenpump View Post
    You're eating the same amountnof protein you normally would...you're just cutting the carbs and adding more low carb selections such as vegetables
    Keto is 25g of carbs or less. Like I said if a bodybuilder thats 250lbs and is eating 5000 cals a day, how would one consume so much protein and fat with only 25g of carbs a day to stay in ketosis deem healthy? Thats no bodybuilder would ever use it. Again, a small guy can get away with it or someone trying to lose weight and look skinny fat

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuz View Post
    Keto is 25g of carbs or less. Like I said if a bodybuilder thats 250lbs and is eating 5000 cals a day, how would one consume so much protein and fat with only 25g of carbs a day to stay in ketosis deem healthy? Thats no bodybuilder would ever use it. Again, a small guy can get away with it or someone trying to lose weight and look skinny fat
    No, maintenance on Keto can be as high as 80-100g per day, depending on the individual. In Keto, you get 60-70% of your calories from fats, which your body has now been conditioned to burn for energy (along with the fat on your body!). It really stokes your body into becoming a fat burning machine. I can't imagine cutting up as a 250 lb guy (I am one) while eating 5000 calories a day unless I am relying heavily on multiple drugs (Healthier than managing for fat intake?). As far as health goes, which is better? You have to decide. Its not for everyone. Its not all the time. If you're a top pro trying to win the Olympia and using massive gear probably not. If you're a guy that wants to look their best while trying to utilize dietary tricks as well as other non-drug hacks to maximize your gear and minimize the amount of gear needed, consider it.

    If you've never tried it, when done right you get steroid -like results in terms on the change you will see in your body. I lost 30 lbs in 30 days one time and was never more ripped. And no, you wont look skinny fat because there wont be any fat left. Keto is another tool in your toolbox and many experts, even guys like Thibaudeux agree that it is effective. Anyone can take gear, eat 5000 calories a day and get "big". I have always found, as a minimalist AAS user, I have to use other hacks such as dietary tricks to get the look I want.
    Last edited by Zenpump; 05-31-2023 at 02:42 PM.

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    Eh I liken keto to all the other weird fad diets. It "works" for some, but at what cost and how is it sustainable.

    Hard to replace just a good well balanced clean diet with macros to meet your needs. Then adjust calories for results you want.
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    IF you understand nutrition, this can easily work for a prolonged amount of time, without sacrificing health or sanity. That said, you had damn well be disciplined or you’re doomed.

    Regarding carbs (and fiber), stick with vegetables super-low on the glycemic index. Your pancreas & colon will thank you btw.

    Regarding protein, stick with clean, low saturated fat varieties (this does get dull), and btw, you better love and can afford good fish, or it’s chicken, chicken & more chicken.



    Regarding fats, stay as unsaturated as you can.

    Pop a multivitamin if your vitamins & minerals are off (which they shouldn’t if you know nutrition, and you can do this forever.

    It’s got a fancy label (Keto), but it’s intelligent & healthy nutrition.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wango View Post
    IF you understand nutrition, this can easily work for a prolonged amount of time, without sacrificing health or sanity. That said, you had damn well be disciplined or you’re doomed.

    Regarding carbs (and fiber), stick with vegetables super-low on the glycemic index. Your pancreas & colon will thank you btw.

    Regarding protein, stick with clean, low saturated fat varieties (this does get dull), and btw, you better love and can afford good fish, or it’s chicken, chicken & more chicken.



    Regarding fats, stay as unsaturated as you can.

    Pop a multivitamin if your vitamins & minerals are off (which they shouldn’t if you know nutrition, and you can do this forever.

    It’s got a fancy label (Keto), but it’s intelligent & healthy nutrition.
    Well maybe I'm confused on what keto truly is then. I've been eating low glycemic for years. Well when I'm dieting for real. Lol.

    But the lower carbs more fat mentioned above seems backwards. Or i should say good carbs.

  14. #14
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    It’s keeping your carbs “low”. But how “low” depends on your particular goals.

    You can eat a keto diet indefinitely, but, if you’re looking at Uber-calorie restriction?

    There are “good” fats btw.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wango View Post
    It’s keeping your carbs “low”. But how “low” depends on your particular goals.

    You can eat a keto diet indefinitely, but, if you’re looking at Uber-calorie restriction?

    There are “good” fats btw.
    Gotcha. And yes there are good fats and I try to incorporate those.

    It's those bad fats that get me off track though! Haha
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zenpump View Post
    No, maintenance on Keto can be as high as 80-100g per day, depending on the individual. In Keto, you get 60-70% of your calories from fats, which your body has now been conditioned to burn for energy (along with the fat on your body!). It really stokes your body into becoming a fat burning machine. I can't imagine cutting up as a 250 lb guy (I am one) while eating 5000 calories a day unless I am relying heavily on multiple drugs (Healthier than managing for fat intake?). As far as health goes, which is better? You have to decide. Its not for everyone. Its not all the time. If you're a top pro trying to win the Olympia and using massive gear probably not. If you're a guy that wants to look their best while trying to utilize dietary tricks as well as other non-drug hacks to maximize your gear and minimize the amount of gear needed, consider it.

    If you've never tried it, when done right you get steroid-like results in terms on the change you will see in your body. I lost 30 lbs in 30 days one time and was never more ripped. And no, you wont look skinny fat because there wont be any fat left. Keto is another tool in your toolbox and many experts, even guys like Thibaudeux agree that it is effective. Anyone can take gear, eat 5000 calories a day and get "big". I have always found, as a minimalist AAS user, I have to use other hacks such as dietary tricks to get the look I want.
    Bro, I know my nutrition. Im talking bodybuilding not crossfit. Sure, go get on keto for that shit. You aint schooling me on that. And no, anyone cant get big. If it was that simple then my gym would be full of fucking 250 lb lean monsters instead of old dudes that want to chit chat and kids on cell phones. Keep telling yourself that 100 g of carbs per day is keto. Its not. You’re the same nut that said you gain 30lb of 200 mg of deca lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by wango View Post
    IF you understand nutrition, this can easily work for a prolonged amount of time, without sacrificing health or sanity. That said, you had damn well be disciplined or you’re doomed.

    Regarding carbs (and fiber), stick with vegetables super-low on the glycemic index. Your pancreas & colon will thank you btw.

    Regarding protein, stick with clean, low saturated fat varieties (this does get dull), and btw, you better love and can afford good fish, or it’s chicken, chicken & more chicken.



    Regarding fats, stay as unsaturated as you can.

    Pop a multivitamin if your vitamins & minerals are off (which they shouldn’t if you know nutrition, and you can do this forever.

    It’s got a fancy label (Keto), but it’s intelligent & healthy nutrition.
    Very well said

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuz View Post
    Bro, I know my nutrition. Im talking bodybuilding not crossfit. Sure, go get on keto for that shit. You aint schooling me on that. And no, anyone cant get big. If it was that simple then my gym would be full of fucking 250 lb lean monsters instead of old dudes that want to chit chat and kids on cell phones. Keep telling yourself that 100 g of carbs per day is keto. Its not. You’re the same nut that said you gain 30lb of 200 mg of deca lol
    Sure did! First cycle 200mg Deca and 20mg/Day Var. 30 lbs easy. And please dont kid yourself, I could grab ANYONE off the street, give them 200 mg per week Deca, 20 mg Var per day AND feed them 5,000 calories a day and in 10 weeks they would have gained at least 8-12% bodyweight. Easy.

    Besides, what are you arguing about? I said its another tool on the toolbox. Can you get bigger eating 5,000 calories and all the carbs you want? Yes, but its a question on body composition and the amount of drugs you need to do it.
    Last edited by Zenpump; 06-01-2023 at 04:24 AM.

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    Original Question

    The original question was to poll if anyone had EXPERIENCE running AAS with Keto.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cuz View Post
    Bro, I know my nutrition. Im talking bodybuilding not crossfit. Sure, go get on keto for that shit. You aint schooling me on that. And no, anyone cant get big. If it was that simple then my gym would be full of fucking 250 lb lean monsters instead of old dudes that want to chit chat and kids on cell phones. Keep telling yourself that 100 g of carbs per day is keto. Its not. You’re the same nut that said you gain 30lb of 200 mg of deca lol
    I really doubt crossfitters would do well on the keto fad either. They need carbs to do that shit. They might be able to do it for a week or two, but they'll be noticing their energy level going down and they won't be able to do as many reps or as much weight either.

    I hypothesize that a keto diet will be a contributing factor to organ damage and failure in the long term. Not to mention it'll impede performance. And if you're trying to build muscle and strength you to be at your peak performance. So I doubt very many serious lifters or athletes in general can do keto for very long.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Honkey_Kong View Post
    I really doubt crossfitters would do well on the keto fad either. They need carbs to do that shit. They might be able to do it for a week or two, but they'll be noticing their energy level going down and they won't be able to do as many reps or as much weight either.

    I hypothesize that a keto diet will be a contributing factor to organ damage and failure in the long term. Not to mention it'll impede performance. And if you're trying to build muscle and strength you to be at your peak performance. So I doubt very many serious lifters or athletes in general can do keto for very long.
    Just a fad diet imo. Its a big seller. Quick weight loss is what people want they dont wanna work or change their lifestyle so alot of companies market that keto. But it aint worth a fuck for building muscle in the offseason
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    keto just got anal fucked by ozempic. I know so many people on that shit and they all are dropping weight like rocks. people want to make zero fucking changes and get whatever they want.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zenpump View Post
    The original question was to poll if anyone had EXPERIENCE running AAS with Keto.
    My last run with both was last year. It was a 6 month stretch with .75mg (correction .35 mg 2x/week) test 2x/wk. Had I added my old dosage of 1.5 iu’s of HGH or ran var? Holy crap, but I wanted & deserved the hurt; I slacked big time during Covid.

    Dropped a total of 30-35 pounds of fat and regained all muscle lost due to Covid inactivity. Went several months with absolutely no bread, pasta or rice; carbs were low glycemic veggies, usually raw.

    Protein was lots of fish, chicken, (red meat only once/ 2-3 weeks). Eggs; almost always the whites.

    No milk, minimal low fat cheese; no butter, low fat salad dressing. Lots of salsa for seasoning.

    No snacks or deserts.

    Weights on average of 4x/wk. Cardio was 4-6/wk.

    No lethargy, but would sometimes get a little light headed during fasted morning workouts.

    You sure ain’t putting on muscle size for sure, but even with low caloric intake, sometimes 1000 or less per day, I gained muscle. Not bad for 64.

    Like anything diet wise; you have to be disciplined and you had better workout.

    I’ve previously ran it with mast, tren , HGH and test, but I think my results would have been better with far more carbs & calories, thus, no Keto. But damn, that tren leaned me out and I had never been as vascular.
    Last edited by wango; 06-02-2023 at 03:17 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wango View Post
    My last run with both was last year. It was a 6 month stretch with .75mg test 2x/wk. Had I added my old dosage of 1.5 iu’s of HGH or ran var? Holy crap, but I wanted & deserved the hurt; I slacked big time during Covid.

    Dropped a total of 30-35 pounds of fat and regained all muscle lost due to Covid inactivity. Went several months with absolutely no bread, pasta or rice; carbs were low glycemic veggies, usually raw.

    Protein was lots of fish, chicken, (red meat only once/ 2-3 weeks). Eggs; almost always the whites.

    No milk, minimal low fat cheese; no butter, low fat salad dressing. Lots of salsa for seasoning.

    No snacks or deserts.

    Weights on average of 4x/wk. Cardio was 4-6/wk.

    No lethargy, but would sometimes get a little light headed during fasted morning workouts.

    You sure ain’t putting on muscle size for sure, but even with low caloric intake, sometimes 1000 or less per day, I gained muscle. Not bad for 64.

    Like anything diet wise; you have to be disciplined and you had better workout.

    I’ve previously ran it with mast, tren, HGH and test, but I think my results would have been better with far more carbs & calories, thus, no Keto. But damn, that tren leaned me out and I had never been as vascular.
    Thanks for the insights. I'm 4 days into a cyclic Keto run. Works great for me and I get the best of both worlds - Ketosis for the fat burn and I can re-feed with carbs my one cheat day to and work my heaviest lift days around this day. Frankly, I am having trouble getting rid of some stubborn belly fat and the best way I know to nuke it (I bust my ass in the gym so it's not that) is Keto. I have successfully worked back into a typical clean eating plan with little problem. Not going to do ephedrine, clen , etc at my age.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zenpump View Post
    Thanks for the insights. I'm 4 days into a cyclic Keto run. Works great for me and I get the best of both worlds - Ketosis for the fat burn and I can re-feed with carbs my one cheat day to and work my heaviest lift days around this day. Frankly, I am having trouble getting rid of some stubborn belly fat and the best way I know to nuke it (I bust my ass in the gym so it's not that) is Keto. I have successfully worked back into a typical clean eating plan with little problem. Not going to do ephedrine, clen, etc at my age.
    There’s always surgery, lol.

    I miss my HGH, but if it has even the slightest chance of increased cancer risk right now (prostate or colon are logical concerns) it just ain’t worth it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wango View Post
    There’s always surgery, lol.

    I miss my HGH, but if it has even the slightest chance of increased cancer risk right now (prostate or colon are logical concerns) it just ain’t worth it.
    No surgery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mooseman33 View Post
    keto just got anal fucked by ozempic. I know so many people on that shit and they all are dropping weight like rocks. people want to make zero fucking changes and get whatever they want.

    Truth
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zenpump View Post
    The original question was to poll if anyone had EXPERIENCE running AAS with Keto.
    Yes. Looking back at all my years with Ketogenic diet on and off I have had my fair share of it. I always thought ketogenic diet worked better for me until I realized how well I do on a low fat diet. When cutting the volume of food makes, for me, a huge difference. Filling up your stomach makes it easier to stick to it.

    When building muscle using a ketogenic approach is just dumb. Both from a science, evidence, and anecdotal perspective. Just zero reason it would be beneficial unless there is medical reason for it like i.e., epilepsy.

    Not sure any of that is useful information for you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tarmyg View Post
    Yes. Looking back at all my years with Ketogenic diet on and off I have had my fair share of it. I always thought ketogenic diet worked better for me until I realized how well I do on a low fat diet. When cutting the volume of food makes, for me, a huge difference. Filling up your stomach makes it easier to stick to it.

    When building muscle using a ketogenic approach is just dumb. Both from a science, evidence, and anecdotal perspective. Just zero reason it would be beneficial unless there is medical reason for it like i.e., epilepsy.

    Not sure any of that is useful information for you?
    "Low Fat"...come on bro the world left that in the 1990's. Do some research. Keto or no Keto, you NEED fat in your diet for countless reasons.

    And with respect to Keto. even AI knows: "Yes, it is possible to build muscle on a keto diet. Studies show that both the ketogenic diet and a traditional Western diet are equally effective for muscle gain, strength, and performance".
    Last edited by Zenpump; 06-02-2023 at 05:26 PM.

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    Lol you ask for those with direct experience with using keto diet while on gear, then argue with one that gives you their personal experience and thoughts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by teedoff View Post
    Lol you ask for those with direct experience with using keto diet while on gear, then argue with one that gives you their personal experience and thoughts.
    He didnt answer the question at all. The question related to AAS and Keto experiences.

    This board is getting more and more useless. Its like there are a few core posters that wait for the next person to come on so they can belittle them, tell them hownlittle they know, tell them they shouldnt take steroids (although they themselves are justified) and all the while tey to sell them fake bullshit that pops up constantly on the screen.

    Worse than that, there is very little info of any value exchanged. If you want REAL insight and valuable, usable, expert info - go to T-NATION!

    Best of luck to everyone - this board is simply not a good use of time

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zenpump View Post
    He didnt answer the question at all. The question related to AAS and Keto experiences.

    This board is getting more and more useless. Its like there are a few core posters that wait for the next person to come on so they can belittle them, tell them hownlittle they know, tell them they shouldnt take steroids (although they themselves are justified) and all the while tey to sell them fake bullshit that pops up constantly on the screen.

    Worse than that, there is very little info of any value exchanged. If you want REAL insight and valuable, usable, expert info - go to T-NATION!

    Best of luck to everyone - this board is simply not a good use of time
    Have a nice day Zenpump

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zenpump View Post
    He didnt answer the question at all. The question related to AAS and Keto experiences.

    This board is getting more and more useless. Its like there are a few core posters that wait for the next person to come on so they can belittle them, tell them hownlittle they know, tell them they shouldnt take steroids (although they themselves are justified) and all the while tey to sell them fake bullshit that pops up constantly on the screen.

    Worse than that, there is very little info of any value exchanged. If you want REAL insight and valuable, usable, expert info - go to T-NATION!

    Best of luck to everyone - this board is simply not a good use of time
    Do you make sock accounts on that board too? Or do you only do that here?

  34. #34
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    tarmyg is online now Knowledgeable Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zenpump View Post
    He didnt answer the question at all. The question related to AAS and Keto experiences.
    What kind of answer are you looking for? Maybe ask the question in a different way and see if I can understand you better and provide more insight.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Honkey_Kong View Post
    How many carbs do you consume in a keto diet that builds muscle?
    I got to ask about the carbs too, in my little bodybuilding experience low carbs means the gear is just helping you from losing muscle definitely not going to be building much from my personal experience
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  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Testie View Post
    I got to ask about the carbs too, in my little bodybuilding experience low carbs means the gear is just helping you from losing muscle definitely not going to be building much from my personal experience
    Exactly. Thats why when u cut you just try to preserve I mean you got your refeed days and all but generally you’re in a deficit and taking tren to try and preserve what tissue u have. I think we’re beating a dead horse here with this guy
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  37. #37
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    man, if you want honestly... screw the Keto diet, ESP if you are trying to build.
    Doing the keto thing is good to lose the excess fat but thats it..
    If you wanna build, go with more of a modified atkins approach, overload the protein and fats and minimize carbs... essentially the same thing.

    The keto thing is a fad now, and got pumped up with the addition of urinary test strips

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zenpump View Post
    Anyone have any experience with gear on Keto?

    From my personal experience, YES YOU CAN. It is not the IDEAL diet for building muscle but you can (and I have) built muscle on it.

    From a body composition standpoint, I will trade IDEAL muscle building for the body composition advantages that keto provides, especially if I am satisfied with my current bulk (you wouldn't do it if your #1 goal was to add bulk).

    I've never done gear on keto though. Any experience? .
    From the original post. The thread got detoured in a direction the OP clearly admitted to originally:

    “Not the IDEAL (his CAPS) diet for building muscle, but you can . . . “

    “I will trade IDEAL (his caps) muscle building for the body composition advantages (my underline) that Keto provides.”

    OP, nice thread idea, solid thoughts; however I hope you just weren’t ultimately promoting another site.

    Regrettably this morning, I was NOT Keto, but it tasted damn GOOD! Sometimes that body composition just has to take one for the team.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Testie View Post
    I got to ask about the carbs too, in my little bodybuilding experience low carbs means the gear is just helping you from losing muscle definitely not going to be building much from my personal experience
    Yeah, he was full of shit. He probably saw it on some TikTok channel and thought he could troll with it.
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  40. #40
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    told you guys he as full of shit

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