Nolva-Clomid Interactions

[Testify]

No, I do not have an emergency. I am probably in the minority here, based on several recent threads, but anyway . . . .

As I read through all of the posts about Nolva and Clomid, and their often recommended dual usage, I began to wonder about how they actually work. I have read extensively on the two, but I do not understand the advice that suggests using both at the same time. Are not Nolva and Clomid remarkably similar substances that compete for the same receptor sites? Both are "weak" estrogens that "block" or occupy the estrogen receptors, so that stronger estrogens cannot bind and produce unwanted sides, right? So wouldn't the administration of both drugs simultaneously be a waste - and worse, counterproductive?

Nolva is routinely used to counter aromitization (indirectly, by blocking its action on receptors) during a cycle, and by those who cannot or chose not to use Clomid due to unwanted sides (however misguided these perceptions may be) during PCT. Clomid has the advantage of kickstarting the HPTA, to quickly restore natural testosterone production. So it is more typically taken during PCT.

My question is why would you take both together? Wouldn't the Nolva, by competing for the same receptors with the Clomid, inhibit recovery post-cycle? Is there some additional benefit to a slower recovery, or a synergistic effect?

Just wondering . . .

T

[halifaxsteve]

No, I do not have an emergency. I am probably in the minority here, based on several recent threads, but anyway . . . .

As I read through all of the posts about Nolva and Clomid, and their often recommended dual usage, I began to wonder about how they actually work. I have read extensively on the two, but I do not understand the advice that suggests using both at the same time. Are not Nolva and Clomid remarkably similar substances that compete for the same receptor sites? Both are "weak" estrogens that "block" or occupy the estrogen receptors, so that stronger estrogens cannot bind and produce unwanted sides, right? So wouldn't the administration of both drugs simultaneously be a waste - and worse, counterproductive?

Nolva is routinely used to counter aromitization (indirectly, by blocking its action on receptors) during a cycle, and by those who cannot or chose not to use Clomid due to unwanted sides (however misguided these perceptions may be) during PCT. Clomid has the advantage of kickstarting the HPTA, to quickly restore natural testosterone production. So it is more typically taken during PCT.

My question is why would you take both together? Wouldn't the Nolva, by competing for the same receptors with the Clomid, inhibit recovery post-cycle? Is there some additional benefit to a slower recovery, or a synergistic effect?

Just wondering . . .

T

firstly, as i understand the above, you are wrong on the action of nolva...it does not counter aromitization, and there are no aromitization receptors. it counters the effects of aromitisation, as nolva competes for the same receptor as estrogen, a product of aromitization in the male body.

clomid and nolva both aid in stimulating the HPTA, however via mechanisms.

chemically both are similar in composition, yet are discint. and each bind a separate protein in the body.

taken together, one does not inhibit the other, nor do they slow recovery.

both are believed to aid in recovery post cycle, and i have had good results with both.

there are a lot of threads on both compounds, i suggest you do some reasearch to further answer your questions.

[Testify]

Ok . . . I may not have much seniority at this board, but one thing I am already tired of is people responding to threads without really reading them. This is a waste of everyone's time.

Now that I have that out of the way, I did find some useful info in your reply, halifax. I did not believe that Nolva's influence on the HPTA was significant. Everything I have read says that it is not - at least it pales in comparison to Clomid. Recovery is at least twice as long when Nolva is taken instead of Clomid. Is this incorrect?

Also, it is interesting that you say that the two do bind to different proteins. I am interested in this kind of info, if anyone cares to comment. Just how similar or dissimilar are the two, chemically speaking? If they do act on different proteins, and thus different receptor sites (is this incorrect?), then (a) is there a synergy? and (b) how can estrogen and gyno be blocked by taking only one of the aforementioned, as many here do successfully?

Any other related info would also be appreciated, guys. Where are all of you? I have read at least three threads in the last couple days advising both Nolva and Clomid. Are you repeating what you were told to do, or do you know why?

T

[sp9]

I am sure Billy Bathgate knows the answer to your questions. Bump!

[halifaxsteve]

Ok . . . I may not have much seniority at this board, but one thing I am already tired of is people responding to threads without really reading them. This is a waste of everyone's time.

Now that I have that out of the way, I did find some useful info in your reply, halifax. I did not believe that Nolva's influence on the HPTA was significant. Everything I have read says that it is not - at least it pales in comparison to Clomid. Recovery is at least twice as long when Nolva is taken instead of Clomid. Is this incorrect?

Also, it is interesting that you say that the two do bind to different proteins. I am interested in this kind of info, if anyone cares to comment. Just how similar or dissimilar are the two, chemically speaking? If they do act on different proteins, and thus different receptor sites (is this incorrect?), then (a) is there a synergy? and (b) how can estrogen and gyno be blocked by taking only one of the aforementioned, as many here do successfully?

Any other related info would also be appreciated, guys. Where are all of you? I have read at least three threads in the last couple days advising both Nolva and Clomid. Are you repeating what you were told to do, or do you know why?

T

you need a special program to view the 3D protien structures that i have, but i can email them to you. unless you are used to looking at them, you will not notice much of a difference. i believe they can bind different proteins/receptors, but i am going on what i believe i have read in my research, and what info i have.

clomid does have a more direct influence on the HPTA, and not as great as nolva IMO. In terms of recovery, I am unsure how quickly either brings about the desired effects, but i believe this would depend greatly on the individual, the cycle they ran, and their responsiveness to the medication. under idencital circumstances, i would put my money on clomid, but again, i lack the scienfitic evidence, and cannot say for sure.

In terms of exact chemical makeup of clomid and nolva, i don't have that in front of me, but i have seen it. i believe that would be available on the inet, i would google it and see what you come up with.

i searched a very useful site i used in univ whenever doing research
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed
i copied the following excerpt from a journal abstract:

'There are four SERMs currently marketed in the United States. These include the triphenylethylenes--clomiphene citrate (Clomid), tamoxifen , and toremifene--and the benzothiophene, raloxifene. Clomid is used primarily in the treatment of infertility. Tamoxifen is indicated for the treatment and prevention of breast cancer. It has an estrogen antagonist effect on breast tissue, but an estrogen-like effect on lipids, bone, and the endometrium.'

-Selective estrogen receptor modulators.

Haskell SG.

Section of General Internal Medicine, Yale University School of Medicine, New Haven, CT, USA. [email protected]

as you can see, they both belong to the same class of drug, but would differ slightly in chemical comp in order to stimulate different responses

billy bathgate is the best one to ask about this...i am sure his knowledge/ability to explain exceed mine

if anyone would like to add to this, or correct me, please do.

[Testify]

Hali, thanks for the reply! There is some good info here. Thanks for the references as well.

Perhaps other people are not responding here because my intent has been misinterpreted. I am not a chemist, and so I would likely not fully understand a detailed technical chemical anaylsis anyway. I am just curious and trying to start a discussion on a topic that seems to effect every person that participates on this board. I think that this could be an enlightening conversation for many of us here. I am also interested in anecdotal and non-biochemist level commentary. Would anyone else care to add to this?

T